So what changed in the Terms of Service?

[MissSweetViolet]

1 minute ago, Blush Bravin said:

Another thing that makes me question could it be just BOM layers is that - for instance - the LaraX does not have a smooth front so just using BOM undies isn't really modest. The outline of the parts still show. So in that case it would require an actual change to the mesh which the creator is the only who can make that change. On the other hand, if the bodies made specifically for children and teens does not have the mesh sculpted in such a way to show the 3D shape of the parts then perhaps BOM would suffice for modesty.

Non of the mainstream kid bodies have definition in their mesh like Lara does. Nor any mesh parts to worry about.

[Rowan Amore]

3 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

Another thing that makes me question could it be just BOM layers is that - for instance - the LaraX does not have a smooth front so just using BOM undies isn't really modest. The outline of the parts still show. So in that case it would require an actual change to the mesh which the creator is the only who can make that change. On the other hand, if the bodies made specifically for children and teens do not have the mesh sculpted in such a way to show the 3D shape of the parts then perhaps BOM would suffice for modesty.

With Reborn, not that it's used for children, you can smooth out the crotch area and the butt cleavage so it's smooth via the HUD.  

[Innula Zenovka]

5 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

This is the issue we're trying to get an answer on and .. LL are saying nothing.

@Tommy Linden @Maggie Linden You do realize that with out explicitly detailing what a modest layer is, a literal reading of the  rules would allow for one on the back of an avatar's head whilst wearing socks.

 

I'm sure that point will impress the independent arbitrator (see Terms of Service, section 10) when they are asked to decide the matter after someone's appeal against a permaban has been refused.

[Theresa Ravenheart]

11 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

Actually no you can't, you can't rezz in the street, but you could have sex on your front lawn, visible from the street 😂

Depends on the sim, many sims give rez rights to their members and also provide objects with adult animations on the sidewalk, in the park, cafe, or whatever public place they have created on their sim...so yes, yes your can have sex in the middle of the street if you so desire on many A sims.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

6 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Actually you can -- as long as they don't advertise themselves on Moderate land.  A hooker can take a John to moderate land to do the deed and collect payment.  That is the "behind closed doors" part.

Yes but she picked him up on adult land first. You can't have a brothel on moderate land, advertised or not

[Sparkle Bunny]

Lara also has add-on layers to smooth out problematic parts, which I would expect any responsible underage avatar to use.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

2 minutes ago, Theresa Ravenheart said:

Depends on the sim, many sims give rez rights to their members and also provide objects with adult animations on the sidewalk, in the park, cafe, or whatever public place they have created on their sim...so yes, yes your can have sex in the middle of the street if you so desire on many A sims.

I'm talking about Zindra, not estates. Estates don't even enter my thinking

Of course i suppose you could have sex in a Zindra rezz zone 😂

Edited May 5 by BilliJo Aldrin
added a line

[Blush Bravin]

1 minute ago, Rowan Amore said:

With Reborn, not that it's used for children, you can smooth out the crotch area and the butt cleavage so it's smooth via the HUD.  

You can do that as well with the LaraX but it requires a separate layer that could be derendered by someone who is really good at camming. Does the Reborn use a separate layer from the body to smooth out the crotch?

[Rowan Amore]

31 minutes ago, Kei Niosaki said:

Yeah maybe, but that is if someone finds a way to get past the alpha or underwear BOM to get a pic to file a report, can be years before that happens

What about the rest of the new rules regarding no access to Adult land or any land with nudity?  

[Vivienne Schell]

5 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

 

That's perfectly clear, isn't? Who's responsible for it "not being removed from a child avatar?" If it's the avatar owner then there should be no problem with wearing BOM genital erasers on existing skins, and there would be no need to modify existing child avatars as long as the owner was behaving responsibly.

But since that's not what the FAQ is saying, then it appears that the responsibility is with the avatar maker, which means that they'd have to make it impossible for a non-controlled skin texture to show up on it.

The FAQ does not matter. What matters are the ToS. And the ToS are perfectly precise.

• Child avatar content creators are required to add a modesty layer which is baked into child avatar skins or bodies, is not transparent, does not match the skin tone, and may not be removed.
• Child avatars where the focal point of the body is on the breasts, pelvis, or buttocks

[Rowan Amore]

1 minute ago, Blush Bravin said:

You can do that as well with the LaraX but it requires a separate layer that could be derendered by someone who is really good at camming. Does the Reborn use a separate layer from the body to smooth out the crotch?

No.  It's all one piece.  There's also the option to smooth any breast cleavage for BoM layers all via the HUD 

[Ceka Cianci]

39 minutes ago, Vivienne Schell said:

Cool that like 20 people out of like a few million users can bloat such a thing by repeating the same arguments all over again.

You think that's bad? I don't even wanna know what the groups are like in world right now..

At least there is a one minute timer on posts here.. LOL

 

[Kei Niosaki]

Just now, Rowan Amore said:

What about the rest of the new rules regarding no access to Adult land or any land with nudity?  

As a child avi i would rarely ever go to Adult regions anyway unless its a home of a friend or i know its a place safe from adult activity so that rule really has no effect on me anyways. To me it was always common sense to stay out of random adult regions as a child avi.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

15 minutes ago, Kathlen Onyx said:

OH you don't have the HUD where you don't need rez rights?

Most sex huds rezz poseballs for which you need rezz rights, so no, I don't have that one However I do have a masturbation hud that I can use anywhere, even in the street. In fact there was this one time...

[Theresa Ravenheart]

2 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

I'm talking about Zindra, not estates. Estates don't even enter my thinking 😂

I didn't mention or reference Zindra either, I am just talking about any land that is Adult land, in reference to what you said in reply to Scylla:

2 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:
The whole POINT of A rated areas is that, in them, you can have sex in the street.

19 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:
Actually no you can't, you can't rezz in the street, but you could have sex on your front lawn, visible from the street 😂

-------------

And that is a false statement.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

2 minutes ago, Theresa Ravenheart said:

I didn't mention or reference Zindra either, I am just talking about any land that is Adult land, in reference to what you said in reply to Scylla:

2 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:
The whole POINT of A rated areas is that, in them, you can have sex in the street.

19 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:
Actually no you can't, you can't rezz in the street, but you could have sex on your front lawn, visible from the street 😂

-------------

And that is a false statement.

fine, if you have rezz rights on the street, you can have sex on the street. 😑

Edited May 5 by BilliJo Aldrin
added an emoji

[Theresa Ravenheart]

3 minutes ago, Kei Niosaki said:

As a child avi i would rarely ever go to Adult regions anyway unless its a home of a friend or i know its a place safe from adult activity so that rule really has no effect on me anyways. To me it was always common sense to stay out of random adult regions as a child avi.

But your "rare" visits are against the TOS now, if you are a child/teen avatar, you may not go to Adult land at all anymore, no matter the circumstance. 

[Rowan Amore]

10 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

Yes but she picked him up on adult land first. You can't have a brothel on moderate land, advertised or not

I could pick up someone on Moderate land and take him back to my moderate skybox, do the deed, get paid and all is good.  Adult activity IS allowed on moderate land so where is the foul?

[LittleMe Jewell]

13 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

Another thing that makes me question could it be just BOM layers is that - for instance - the LaraX does not have a smooth front so just using BOM undies isn't really modest. The outline of the parts still show. So in that case it would require an actual change to the mesh which the creator is the only who can make that change. On the other hand, if the bodies made specifically for children and teens do not have the mesh sculpted in such a way to show the 3D shape of the parts then perhaps BOM would suffice for modesty.

I think a teen avatar could still wear a body that indicates breasts are there.  The breasts just cannot be the focal point of the body and the breasts must be covered by a modesty layer -- though we still don't know how much of the breasts must be covered.  Nothing in the policy says that the modesty layer has to remove all indications of breasts.

 

[Blush Bravin]

5 minutes ago, Vivienne Schell said:

The FAQ does not matter. What matters are the ToS. And the ToS are perfectly precise.

• Child avatar content creators are required to add a modesty layer which is baked into child avatar skins or bodies, is not transparent, does not match the skin tone, and may not be removed.
• Child avatars where the focal point of the body is on the breasts, pelvis, or buttocks

 

*bolding mine

Bakes on Mesh

Bakes on Mesh is a new feature to allow system avatar baked textures to be shown on mesh attachments.

https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Release_Notes/Second_Life_Project_BakesOnMesh/5.1.10.520711

All I'm saying is there is room for confusion the way the policy is stated. 

[Blush Bravin]

2 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

I think a teen avatar could still wear a body that indicates breasts are there.  The breasts just cannot be the focal point of the body and the breasts must be covered by a modesty layer -- though we still don't know how much of the breasts must be covered.  Nothing in the policy says that the modesty layer has to remove all indications of breasts.

 

Breasts are not the parts I was referring to.

 

[Kei Niosaki]

Just now, Theresa Ravenheart said:

But your "rare" visits are against the TOS now, if you are a child/teen avatar, you may not go to Adult land at all anymore, no matter the circumstance. 

Yes i know that an i sadly i cant visit those friends home anymore unless i log on my adult avi.

[frankyjake2333]

Good Evening.

While I’m not a lawyer I do have a good deal of knowledge working with the law.  I’m also not a second life player but I do have a close friend that is heavily involved in the platform.  She uses it as a form of therapy for a abusive childhood trauma through roleplaying.   I have just spent the last two nights watching her have an emotional break down on about this issue. 

I wanted to post some comments but was begged not too on her account.  So, I’ve created my own account to post a comment as an outside observer.  I’m sure what I’m about to post will ruffle more than a few feathers and the post itself will be taken down immediately.    If you are reading this, take a screenshot of it and post it everywhere; circulate it on reddit and in discord channels.

My first comment is to Linden Lab itself.  The motives behind the new Terms of Service are complete rubbish, keep that in mind as you read on.  You had a scare and found nothing wrong but decided to deprive thousands of users of the joy they have had over years and anger them.  How does this make good business sense?  

When your own internal investigation found nothing wrong the correct thing to do would have been to proceed with business as usual.  You found nothing wrong, but you go out of your way to break something that helps so many people.  That speaks very poorly of your management skills.

But let’s get to the meat of the post.  To the people that are suffering have you thought of legal action?  Just read the entire post before you rule it out.  

I’ve looked over the Linden Labs terms of service (tos).  They are not as bullet proof as they would have you believe.  To an outsider this seems to be a poorly run company trying to recover from a internal scandal and is doing it very poorly.   From my point of view there are two grounds for legal action not covered by the TOS.

The first case for legal action is on the grounds of emotional distress.  I’m sure many of you are already shaking your heads, but there are real grounds here.  I watched my friend break down over two days.   Her therapist is greatly concerned.  The family role playing was assisting in her recovery from trauma.  Now that has been removed as an option for no good reason.   From reading the forums there are others here that feel the same way.  

To Linden Lab, I would remind you of what state you are in.  One of the most liberal states in the country and place where civil law tends to lead to the plaintive in these cases.  If this was to go to trial and it could, one therapist addressing a jury about emotional injuries and what do you think the outcome would be?  
Second, I would also remind you of one of the cases in California, the OJ Simpson case.  In a criminal proceeding he was found not guilty but in a civil case he was.  That is because in California the requirements for finding faults are a lot lower.   Since this would be a civil case on emotional trauma you wouldn’t have your term of service to hide behind.   

Let’s look at the other grounds for legal action, and that would be Second Life as a source of income.   Second Life is unique in the way that you can generate a source of income off of the platform.  This is a good thing as it allows people that don’t have a place in the general workforce to have a productive and creative life.  When you deprive those of that opportunity through no fault of their own, but due to an internal scandal, that raises certain questions that could be legally challenging.   

Linden Lab is within their rights to remove someone from the platform that does violate the rules, and this could and does lead to a loss of income for that person.  The question arises when they change the rules and deprive someone of a source of income, which is what they are doing. 

When you change the rules and deprive someone of a source of income that they have become dependent on, well that could look very different in the eyes of the law.  Your terms of service give you some shield, but those terms of service become null and void if they violate the law.  The laws on income and the right to work in some states, California for one, are very clear.

Now for the standard disclaimer, I am not a lawyer so what I’m expressing is my own options.  But with that being said, if you are a victim of these new rules I would come together on platforms outside of Linden Labs control, reddit and Discord.   Talk it over.   If you live in California and have the means reach out to a legal consultant and show them this document.   Let them tell you if there is a case here.  I feel there are grounds on both reasons I have provided. 

To Linden Lab, if you are reading this, I would advise you to reconsider the new policies you have put in place.   There is no legitimate reason for you to do so.  You are causing a lot of stress and trauma for no reason and if it was to go to court there is a very good probability that you would lose the case.   I’ve looked over some of the legal cases proceeding that have affected your company over the years and you do not have a good track record of winning in court. 

You have created a unique environment that allows people with physical and emotional disabilities to thrive and gain some semblance of a normal life.   By removing this from them for no fault of their own that does indeed make you liable.   According to your own site, and the law, a income source above a certain level require you to report the income proceeding to government sources for tax reasons.   This makes income from Second Life a legitimate source.

There are several civil organizations out there that might take issue with depriving people with disabilities of that source of income through no fault of their own.

My not so legal advice to Linden Lab would be to walk back the new rules, for reevaluation, then quietly forget about them.   At least consult the parts of the community you are doing most harm too and try to work with them instead of just using a hammer to beat them in to submission.  

As an outside observer, I don’t see this as a battle you can win without causing undue harm.  
 

[Vivienne Schell]

 

12 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

You think that's bad? I don't even wanna know what the groups are like in world right now..

The activist child player groups? Maybe they plan a march to LL HQ to set fire under Oberwolf´s bottom or something. Cause of these darned undies and all the terrible supression they suffer and all that. The more "grown up" child avatar player groups? They most probably watch out for skin creators updating their products and bomb Belleza and others with requests and get along evry well with the other changes . The rest of the planet? Sighs in relief or does not care at all.

Edited May 5 by Vivienne Schell

[BilliJo Aldrin]

So what happens when LL sanitizes all of Second Life, ken and barbi's everyone but graciously says you know, if you don't like the new rules you can just stay in that ghetto called Zindra with your anatomically correct avatars.

I wonder, when they ken and barbie everyone, will all the barbies be restricted to the high foot form?