So what changed in the Terms of Service?

[Ayashe Ninetails]

2 minutes ago, MissSweetViolet said:

Part of the issue is the rules for what the modesty layer should look like haven't been given out. The creator at TD was expressing this yesterday in their Discord. She received no notice from LL [found out through the announcement I believe.] She was working on trying to implement a fix that wouldn't break content [or at least as little as possible], and was ready to start, but has been given no guideline on what to cover. So if even the creators don't know what this layer should look like, where are we?

Very much agree with you on this. 

I'm imagining it looking like a basic cami/undies set or briefs or a full-coverage bikini or something (something more clothing-like and not the censored bar treatment), but that really needs to be clarified soon so creators can get to work.

[MinkBlueleaf Fyrewik]

3 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

wish to know where that line is.

I previously wrote about my friend wanting to know if My Little Pony (OpenPony) would be allowed on A-rated land. Or rather one of her regulars who was 24-7/365 an OpenPony could continue to be allowed. So I want to know as well? I was merely quoting Linden Lab's FAQ. They said to just create a non-human avatar like they answered in the FAQ portion about going out shopping, but I dunno exactly what kind of non-human other than the LL library avatars and the robots they meant. There is a club that bans TWI wolf puppy avatars from their adult region, so would MLP with their big eyes be allowed? (Being big eyes is supposedly one of the tells.) I am an anime / manga character myself (albeit modeled after a 21 year old character) so I am invested in this topic. 

[Kathlen Onyx]

49 minutes ago, Youri Ashton said:

That sounds more like discrimination based on looks. Not on actual age. Now don't get me wrong, if it's very clearly a child or even baby avi, then yes that person shouldn't be in such a sim and should get banned. But to be fair, SL has seen such problems before in the past and history seems to be doomed to repeat itself. So yes I do worry about it.

Be careful using the "discrimination" word. Just because something isn't allowed doesn't mean it's discrimination.  That has a very distinct definition as to what it applies to.  I'm not even sure a private gaming entity is even bound by any of that for their end users.

 

[Kathlen Onyx]

1 minute ago, MinkBlueleaf Fyrewik said:

I previously wrote about my friend wanting to know if My Little Pony (OpenPony) would be allowed on A-rated land. Or rather one of her regulars who was 24-7/365 an OpenPony could continue to be allowed. So I want to know as well? I was merely quoting Linden Lab's FAQ. They said to just create a non-human avatar like they answered in the FAQ portion about going out shopping, but I dunno exactly what kind of non-human other than the LL library avatars and the robots they meant. There is a club that bans TWI wolf puppy avatars from their adult region, so would MLP with their big eyes be allowed? (Being big eyes is supposedly one of the tells.) I am an anime / manga character myself (albeit modeled after a 21 year old character) so I am invested in this topic. 

MLP is not human. Whether or not a club bans them or not has no bearing at all. I would assume if you can go shopping in a robot avatar that you can also go shopping in a MLP avatar...unless well it has the head or body of a child avi.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

1 minute ago, Wincil said:

Then again Anime styled avatar's seen to get hated on a lot unfortunately People have been falsely banned for ***** before.

Not falsely.

I'm well aware of what a kemono looks like, or the M3/M4 series heads.

And I've SEEN 4'8" kemo wearers claiming that using the paw-feet option exempts them from the anti-***-play section of the Tos.

And I've SEEN them claim that basing an avatar on badly drawn Japanese comics exempts them from the Toss, because "But it's Japanese Culture!"

And I've SEEN them blatantly lie about their height, claiming to be 5'4", when actually 4'8", because the CRETINS from the Campaign for Real Heights keep screaming "5'4  is the average height of women in America" so they think that claiming they are 5'4 exempts them from the antii-***--play sections of the ToS.

And I've SEEN kemo based avi's with "human" M3/M4 heads claim that a place piic with a meaningless disclaimer stating "all my characters are 18+" exempts them from the ToS.

 

All of them were WRONG, none of that crap exempts them from the ToS.

About HALF the kid avi's I've had to punt from A rated parcels for refusing to wear an adult avatar, were kemono users.

 

 

[Youri Ashton]

3 minutes ago, Kathlen Onyx said:

Be careful using the "discrimination" word. Just because something isn't allowed doesn't mean it's discrimination.  That has a very distinct definition as to what it applies to.  I'm not even sure a private gaming entity is even bound by any of that for their end users.

 

You wish to state that my words were false?

[Kathlen Onyx]

2 minutes ago, Youri Ashton said:

You wish to state that my words were false?

I do, yes.

Edited May 3 by Kathlen Onyx

[Istelathis]

[Lysana McMillan]

6 minutes ago, Wincil said:

Then again Anime styled avatar's seen to get hated on a lot unfortunately People have been falsely banned for ***** before.

That one can be misunderstood. Granted, so many anime characters are middle or high-school students that it isn't helpful to those who wish to echo that look. People with partial knowledge and a low desire to learn more become armchair experts about what it takes to look like an adult in anime style and the fauxtrage begins. I also know it's possible to look anime-style and adult without using more conventionally Western anatomy.

I will also never forget staring at a Kemono-type avi at a BDSM club I DJed at for a while who I was told was OK with management. She had mosquito-bite breasts and no waistline. I was built like that once. I was 12. I've seen p0rn with Asian women who were over 18 and slim. Also Western women who were of roughly similar builds. You can tell the difference between AA-cup adults and pre-pubescents whose adult cup size is as-yet undetermined in a moment. The management bought her line of BS. File that under "part of why I quit."

[Zalificent Corvinus]

9 minutes ago, Starberry Passion said:

Because Western civilization equate cuteness to child, unfortunately. If it's cute, it's going to be perceived as child so your best bet is to be in a sim where there are other Anime avatars.

Bullshj*te.

It's because we associate Huge heads, with huge eyes, and tiny mouths on flat chested narrow hipped bodies 4 and a half feet tall with "looks like a damn child".

Anime faces DELIBERATELY look child like.

Many Anime/Manga characters in the Non SL "art" are basically a child's head on an adult body. That is the "Culture" of Anime.

When you stick a child like head on a child like body, it's a child like avatar, and gets asked to change or leave or get punt kicked.

No exceptions

It's got sod all to do with "cute" and everything to do with "look like a damn child".

 

[Flea Yatsenko]

24 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Hmm, now that I think of it, the ToS change will "kill" the "Family-Friendly Nude Beach" business.

I shall not shed a tear for them.  They can put up signs, "no nude children".

Are children even allowed at such places even if the child is fully-clothed now?

Thanks for reminding me, good riddance to them! I think some people who play AVs who get confused as child AVs by some people are feeling a little threatened by this. I.E. femboys who might be mistaken for a child because lack of hair and a softer face.

But people are completely forgetting that there are definitely groups of people who are playing very dangerous games in SL regarding age. With lots of very strong rule bending going on (Everyone is naked because it's a family nude beach, we're not breaking any rules about sex!). Ultimately it really depends if this is going to turn into a witch hunt of reports being filed because residents think someone doesn't look adult vs blatantly disregarding the new ToS. And I think some of that is going to boil down to residents reporting.

Smartly enough they put it entirely on the avatar and not on the land owners. Which means we won't be seeing land owners freak out and over -react as much since they're not going to be responsible if they're not there and some ToS violations start happening.

Personally the more I think about this more I like it. SL getting a ton of negative press in this political climate right now would be extremely bad for a lot of us, specially if we own SL businesses. As long as the fake accusations of being a child AV don't get out of hand. Not that I care, I gave up trying to look good long ago and now I just maxed out my height sliders so I can walk around my builds and make sure I don't get stuck lol.

[MinkBlueleaf Fyrewik]

3 minutes ago, Kathlen Onyx said:

MLP is not human. Whether or not a club bans them or not has no bearing at all. I would assume if you can go shopping in a robot avatar that you can also go shopping in a MLP avatar...unless well it has the head or body of a child avi.

I think I got it? The TWI wolf puppy isn't a human either, so technically that adult club didn't have / need to ban it?

[Coffee Pancake]

Women are not defined by their boobs.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

1 hour ago, MissSweetViolet said:

Agreed, this needs clarity. The way it's worded I assume never be able to take it off, means part of the body mesh, since you could swap a skin. My thought on how to this without braking skins would be to have an underwear layer over the top [like a tattoo or clothing layer on say Maitreya. This layer wouldn't react to BoM or appliers and might have it's own hud to change the pattern. but since it would be part of the mesh, would meet the requirement. and skins would render under it so applier/BoM skins would still work.

Of course the downside to this is the body would need to be no mod, since otherwise you could make it transparent, and when wearing BoM tights or bottoms, your underwear would be outside them. But at least you could still use skins. I legit have no idea how else to make it work that doesn't break a ton more stuff.

 

Not sure what the problem understanding this is. It is a skin with bra and panties attached. You CAN swap out the skin for one without the modesty parts, but if you are caught it is ARable and bannable.

So go without the modesty patches if you dare, but you will pay the price if caught

[BilliJo Aldrin]

1 hour ago, Theresa Ravenheart said:

Something that might be good for LL to look at and use to define the modesty coverage rules for child and teen avatars, it should be clearly defined liked IMVU does so that it cannot be questioned at all. 

https://create.imvu.com/articles/classic/understanding-minimum-coverage-guidelines/#:~:text=To accurately test the coverage,not sheer or transparent).

please explain to me why anyone would play imvu, those avatars are gross

[Wincil]

11 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Not falsely.

I'm well aware of what a kemono looks like, or the M3/M4 series heads.

And I've SEEN 4'8" kemo wearers claiming that using the paw-feet option exempts them from the anti-***-play section of the Tos.

And I've SEEN them claim that basing an avatar on badly drawn Japanese comics exempts them from the Toss, because "But it's Japanese Culture!"

And I've SEEN them blatantly lie about their height, claiming to be 5'4", when actually 4'8", because the CRETINS from the Campaign for Real Heights keep screaming "5'4  is the average height of women in America" so they think that claiming they are 5'4 exempts them from the antii-***--play sections of the ToS.

And I've SEEN kemo based avi's with "human" M3/M4 heads claim that a place piic with a meaningless disclaimer stating "all my characters are 18+" exempts them from the ToS.

 

All of them were WRONG, none of that crap exempts them from the ToS.

About HALF the kid avi's I've had to punt from A rated parcels for refusing to wear an adult avatar, were kemono users.

 

 

Again how do you know that they are not falsely banned or lie about their height? kemono wasn't intended to be a child avatar you doofus some woman are 4'8" in real life btw how do you know that that they broke ToS? how do you know that the disclaimer is meaningless? Im sorry to say this but you sound like a hypocrite. 

Edited May 3 by Wincil

[Kathlen Onyx]

4 minutes ago, MinkBlueleaf Fyrewik said:

I think I got it? The TWI wolf puppy isn't a human either, so technically that adult club didn't have / need to ban it?

If you are talking technicalities the club could have banned the avatar based on the fact they didn't like the earrings they were wearing. Nope, don't like it. BANNED.

Landowners can ban you for any reason they want.

[Lita Jannings]

So my question is are Avatars that are "Small" furry like communing known as "Dinkies" considered to be Child Avatars?

I ask cause in my Adult Sim I get a few every day.

Lita

[BilliJo Aldrin]

1 hour ago, Kathlen Onyx said:

It's comments like this that may get Child Avi's banned completely.

Maybe LL should just do that and put everyone out of their misery, because this whole thing is NOT going to end well.

In fact, ban furries and hentai, and teens, and animals, everyone else can just have the exact same avatar.

This is really the start of the end of Second Life.. thank you Linden Lab

[Theresa Ravenheart]

2 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

please explain to me why anyone would play imvu, those avatars are gross

Those are the base avatars, much like the SL system Ruth avatar that we used to all have. Hideous and scary looking. In my many years in imvu, I've never seen anyone that looks like that or uses the default avatar.  If you try, you can make imvu avatars look really good and close-ish to SL avatars. 

[MissSweetViolet]

5 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

Not sure what the problem understanding this is. It is a skin with bra and panties attached. You CAN swap out the skin for one without the modesty parts, but if you are caught it is ARable and bannable.

So go without the modesty patches if you dare, but you will pay the price if caught

It's that LL hasn't stated what all needs to be covered, of course groin should be a given, does the chest need to covered too? Are we talking just underwear, or do they want a shorts like look? will the requirement differ by age? They haven't stated what they consider to be modest.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

1 hour ago, Madi Melodious said:

Define child avatar?   Size, look, shape.  LL needs to clear that up.  If I wear tshirts, jeans and sneakers, am I a child?  What about my height?   The girl in the apartment next door to me looks like she is 12. I know she is in her mid twenties.    She is just small. 

So how big do I have to be fore I'm no longer a considered child?   Does my breast size count?  What about size of my waist?   These may seem like nonsense questions to you but to me they are real because one of the options I'm considering is "aging up." 

So how big do I have to be?

I'll give you my numbers, get a maitreya body and you'll be all set 😁

[LittleMe Jewell]

2 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

4 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

All appeals were reviewed before -- they always have been.  However, when it comes to the ***** issue, the reviews almost never resulted in any sort of reversal of the original ban.

Is that a largely anecdotal conclusion?

Years ago, 2010 I think, a friend of mine was accused of a*eplay by a griefer (anyone who knew him found the accusation laughable, and he NEVER used a child avatar). He was suspended for, I think, about 8 days while they investigated, and then cleared. He's still in SL (although not active at the mo).

Rough estimate based on thread opened in the forums talking about bans and appeals.

[MinkBlueleaf Fyrewik]

8 minutes ago, Kathlen Onyx said:

If you are talking technicalities the club could have banned the avatar based on the fact they didn't like the earrings they were wearing. Nope, don't like it. BANNED.

Landowners can ban you for any reason they want.

I meant in regards to the new changes in the TOS re: child avatars ^.^ As a landowner I already knew about the banning for any reason I want.

Edited May 3 by MinkBlueleaf Fyrewik
clarification

[Wincil]

Childlike means this

(of an adult) having the good qualities, such as innocence, associated with a child.

"she speaks with a childlike directness" this this can refer to someone who is a grown man or woman cuteness does not always equate to child I can never understand why some people discriminate on the basis of looks. 

Edited May 3 by Wincil