Will SL be better as Mobile App is introduced?

[Wallace Wirefly]

As have read that LL is again trying to move SL out to the mobile phone arena. This was tried in past with not very good results. But as we all know technology advances especially in the mobile phone industry. Yes we now have what is called 5G but is it still able to handle the complexities of SL? The carriers are touting 5G of course supposedly much better and maybe in a perfect setting it is. Mobiles suffer from latency issues as well as speeds which typically run from 7 - 43 Mpbs. Also tower connections and Band sharing as shown in Xfinity ad for those that have tried T-mobiles touted home Wifi. But does everyone have 5G? So how will LL make this new App available and work across not only 5G but also 4G ? Will adjustments be made to the platform to accommodate the mobile app? Will this tend to degrade the overall performance of those who don't use the mobile App? What advantage dose a mobile App have? Does it more solidify the idea that SL is really only a game? I know many questions that maybe need answers. Not sure they will all be. Only time will tell.

[Wulfie Reanimator]

Your biggest problem will be battery life and heat, regardless. Running a full 3D app with constant stream/decode isn't free for the hardware.

[Love Zhaoying]

I've found it runs ok on my new iPad (better than my old iPhone, gets less hot)..

[Love Zhaoying]

10 hours ago, Wallace Wirefly said:

As have read that LL is again trying to move SL out to the mobile phone arena. This was tried in past with not very good results. But as we all know technology advances especially in the mobile phone industry. Yes we now have what is called 5G but is it still able to handle the complexities of SL? The carriers are touting 5G of course supposedly much better and maybe in a perfect setting it is. Mobiles suffer from latency issues as well as speeds which typically run from 7 - 43 Mpbs. Also tower connections and Band sharing as shown in Xfinity ad for those that have tried T-mobiles touted home Wifi. But does everyone have 5G? So how will LL make this new App available and work across not only 5G but also 4G ? Will adjustments be made to the platform to accommodate the mobile app? Will this tend to degrade the overall performance of those who don't use the mobile App? What advantage dose a mobile App have? Does it more solidify the idea that SL is really only a game? I know many questions that maybe need answers. Not sure they will all be. Only time will tell.

You asked a lot of questions - and there are relatively few of us regular Forumites actually testing the app. So, I can't choose which questions to answer!

The main advantage of the Mobile app is, you can use it anywhere (although I'd recommend WiFi not cellular data, that's just me) that you'd prefer not to take a PC / Mac. This also means that it will make Second Life available to more users.

If the main viewer IS moved to Unity / the platform used for Mobile, there are many things to consider.

The main two (off the top of my head) are: 1) a huge amount of functionality is not in the mobile app yet, that would need to be "done" for the desktop app to be "replaced", and 2) third-party viewer support accounts for a huge percentage of the Second Life user base - those viewers would need to be supported into the foreseeable future unless a new viewer based on mobile completely blew all others away.

[animats]

I hope it brings more users in. This place is too empty.

[filz Camino]

I'm sceptical that the demand for it is real. I've had Lumiya on my phone for years and I never use it. 

For me, SL is best experienced on a device that has a decent sized screen and a keyboard. And, SL is never what I want to spend time on when I'm out and about.

I guess I would be (slightly) more likely  to use a SL app that runs on my iPad rather than my phone, though.

[AmeliaJ08]

Aside from the technical limitations of the devices SL will now be aimed at the set of rules that this mobile app seems to be handing down on the rest of us I'm not sure...

I don't know. I know growth is necessary but I also can't deny I have my doubts as to the audience it will attract and the changes it will bring to the grid.

At the very least it's  going to be a highly variable experience. Some would say that is how SL is currently though and they're not wrong, old content is very primitive and still permeates the entire grid, it shouldn't be a problem for a mobile device. Newer content though... well, I would assume the Unity viewer probably does a far better job of handling it than the desktop viewer but the hardware limitations will undoubtedly mask a lot of these improvements.

I suppose there is maybe some hope that an entirely new Unity viewer code base might eventually come to desktop too where it could really shine. As it stands though I probably just don't get the appeal of running graphically intensive apps on a tiny mobile device. We must also consider that with the growth of mobile users the incentive to improve the desktop experience will naturally diminish.

For what it's worth though I don't think mobile bandwidth is a concern, 4G (LTE) can pull 50-100mbps quite happily and SL's asset servers struggle to saturate high bandwidth connections already. Of course high bandwidth on mobile depends on good reception and of course in some areas 4G and 5G bandwidth is already limited by high contention, 5G also does not always (often) mean the very high speed mmwave version and in more rural areas in its lower frequency modes does not offer much different to existing LTE. Your mileage may vary, certainly the need for a high bandwidth, low loss connection means you probably won't be able to stay connected to SL on mobile unless you never leave high coverage areas.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 4 by AmeliaJ08

[Sid Nagy]

I think a mobile app is a chance to boost Second Life. If it will succeed only the future can tell.
It is a good thing that the Lab takes it time to develop the devise. IMHO it will only get one chance. People are very spoiled these days with all kinds of cool on their phones. If they think that Second Life on their phone is meh, than all the development efforts are down the drain. And sadly there will be no second chance. The potential users will be of to the next cool new thing in a jiffy.

Edited May 4 by Sid Nagy
slight change in wording and... my Saturday hobby of course.

[Mr Amore]

The mobile app is supplementary for those already using the desktop viewer. Being a limited experience, I really don't see it attracting new users.

 

SL has an ageing demographic, the audience it wants to attract are those in their twenties and thirties, who are largely invested in Roblox and Fortnite.  SL doesn't need to turn into a platform for gaming, it can keep everything it still has whilst improving SL's gaming capabilities.

This week I noticed there was a new Game Control event for using controllers in SL. This is progress. I'll be scripting a helicopter to try it.

 

I'm less convinced by the Combat2 project, the fundamental change SL needs is simplifying how residents engage with content. The necessity to own a sim, then build it, then attract residents into the experience is beyond the finances and patience of most residents. Compare this to other games, where you find an experience, click a button, and you're good to go.

 

LL need a good look at how content can be delivered by creators, and how that content is accessed by the residents. Then they'll have an audience for mobile, desktop and potentially consoles too.

[Chic Aeon]

Someone mentioned this week (I think on the TOS thread) that while that "aging" thing was true -- LATELY SL ha gained a lot of young folk (maybe younger than 20 that is moving it up in that demographic quickly.  Not sure how true that is; I didn't investigate but for that age group it seems like the phone thing would be very important.  

[AmeliaJ08]

On 5/4/2024 at 1:10 PM, Mr Amore said:

The mobile app is supplementary for those already using the desktop viewer. Being a limited experience, I really don't see it attracting new users.

Is this the intention though? I think they want to make it a full fat viewer, it's definitely limited at present but it's not finished.

[Flea Yatsenko]

On 5/4/2024 at 4:36 AM, filz Camino said:

I'm sceptical that the demand for it is real. I've had Lumiya on my phone for years and I never use it. 

For me, SL is best experienced on a device that has a decent sized screen and a keyboard. And, SL is never what I want to spend time on when I'm out and about.

I guess I would be (slightly) more likely  to use a SL app that runs on my iPad rather than my phone, though.

If they can turn it into an avatar dress up and show off app it can be very popular.

[Istelathis]

I hope it does become better, and because it is being created on Unity it might eventually be ported to other devices.  I think it would be pretty cool to eventually be able to use SL using a proper VR setup, although it would be weird using a Meta headset to play SL with.. I wonder if I would lose my legs? 🙃😋

Edited May 7 by Istelathis

[Zalificent Corvinus]

On 5/4/2024 at 5:16 PM, Chic Aeon said:

Someone mentioned this week (I think on the TOS thread) that while that "aging" thing was true -- LATELY SL ha gained a lot of young folk (maybe younger than 20 that is moving it up in that demographic quickly.  Not sure how true that is; I didn't investigate but for that age group it seems like the phone thing would be very important.  

Yes they mentioned that, turns out they were basing it of faulty interpretation of an article on a website, that gave estimated demographics for "virtual worlds", including minecraft, robblox, WoW, and Eve Online, as well as SL.

 

So the figures the idiots were claiming for SL were an average of our measly 600k -800k of "really old people over 40 who are nearly dead" with Roblox's "zillions of 12 yr olds"

 

Edited May 7 by Zalificent Corvinus

[Katherine Heartsong]

The issue—as someone who professionally thinks about user experiences every working day, and has done for more years that I care to consider—isn't whether or not it will be better as a mobile app (however you choose to define better in a qualitative or qualitative way), the question is what are users expecting and want to do with a mobile version of SL?

I'm not sure you can replicate the entire SL on a mobile device, and I'm not sure you ever want to try. That then let's us ask "What is it that a SL player wants to do on a mobile device and how do we optimize those specific experiences, and what can we leave out or minimize that users don't really want to do?"

That way, you prioritize the UX for what needs doing from a user-centric point of view, not wants everything point of view.

I've presented at conferences arguing against the entire "mobile first" movement that was so popular among designers about a decade ago (Luke Wroblewski et al), suggesting instead that a company like LL should be asking not "How can we jam this all into a mobile platform?" but rather, what is the difference between what most users want to do on a desktop/laptop versus a mobile use case.

My own thinking and guess—completely uninformed by any user data LL has about how and what we do in world—is that communicating/IMing with your friends list is one strong use, being aware and being able to participate in events and shopping is a second, being made aware of group notices and discussions, casually exploring new sims, and not sure about a fifth.

I don't think anyone is going to use a mobile app to go park their avatar and be AFK for hours at a dance club, though.

Edited May 7 by Katherine Heartsong

[gwynchisholm]

Theyre easily a decade too late in my opinion. As someone whos been playing all kinds of social games for at least the last 17 years now i think. We all watched social media take off with a younger audience, and smartphones really took advantage of that, and social games lost popularity. It happened to everyone. For most people it wasnt the game, it was the social aspect. So give them a social media app in their pocket and theyll use that before playing a social game.

A lot of other platforms recognized this super quick and started development on mobile apps, some later than others, but really the only ones that caught on quick survived. Roblox made an ios app in 2012 and an android app in 2014 and their population recovered then skyrocketed. Habbo made an ios app in 2014 and an android version shortly after and their population recovered and still slowly climbs. Runescape didnt catch on until 2018 with OSRS and RS3 until 2021 but they also saw a huge increase in users with both. 

But a lot of smaller games that didnt pull it off, or didnt have the development potential to pull it off, are either now stuck with a minuscule playerbase or entirely died. I dont think LL was fast enough here, i think itll still do good for the growth of the game, but i doubt it will have the effect that it had on other platforms. 

[Mr Amore]

On 5/5/2024 at 8:36 PM, AmeliaJ08 said:

Is this the intention though? I think they want to make it a full fat viewer, it's definitely limited at present but it's not finished.

 

Somewhere in this interview, Oberwolf says they'll continue to develop the mobile app depending on its popularity. There doesn't appear to be a roadmap for SL.

 

[Flea Yatsenko]

On 5/4/2024 at 11:16 AM, Chic Aeon said:

Someone mentioned this week (I think on the TOS thread) that while that "aging" thing was true -- LATELY SL ha gained a lot of young folk (maybe younger than 20 that is moving it up in that demographic quickly.  Not sure how true that is; I didn't investigate but for that age group it seems like the phone thing would be very important.  

The internet has completely changed from when SL started. The internet was your second life before all these big corporations wanted you to give them your full name, real picture, and share everything about your life. SL was a cool virtual world back then and it was really mind blowing, but a lot of us older internet users were already used to being on the internet and living like your real name was a top secret piece of information that could get you in big trouble if it leaked. You always used a handle, some obscure avatar picture of a character or something from an anime or TV or game or something.

Now the internet is totally different. Everywhere you go they want your real life information. Second Life, while not a super impressive 3D world anymore, has the unique aspect of being a part of the internet where you can leave your real life behind. No reddit posts about real life, no real names, none of that. Just an entirely separate internet existence you can have to escape Facebook, Reddit, etc.

I wouldn't be surprised if the younger generation was getting tired of using their real name in almost every corner of the internet while one of the first things they see when joining a platform is stuff about how if anyone is slightly offended by anything you do they can just terminate your account. I know VRChat has that. And if you're playing on a Quest it's linked with FB and some RL info. Even if you're not a bad person the whole "Welcome to our platform, step out of line and you lose everything" is a terrible first impression. And a lot of these younger people are getting that. And SL doesn't have it. It's extremely hands off.

I could easily see SL see growth in places people don't expect as people try and flee the fact the line between internet and real life is basically gone. SL is 100% old internet where you just pick a username and leave everything else behind (if you want). It's stayed the same for so long in that regard that it's actually become a killer feature and LL didn't even do anything to earn it, just not change anything.

Some of us older users are completely ignoring the fact the internet has turned into a giant hungry monster wanting to consume your real life information. And SL is the anti-thesis of that. I would assume there's lots of younger people who don't even have computers that would love to get away from the modern internet.

I just hope the mobile client is successful and they can get it on more platforms and turn it into a noob friendly client. The official SL client is massively intimidating for new users and if they change it too much the existing user base gets very mad.

[Jackson Redstar]

I doubt a mobile app will bring in more new users when the the majority of new users on the existing platform never come back

[Flea Yatsenko]

20 minutes ago, Jackson Redstar said:

I doubt a mobile app will bring in more new users when the the majority of new users on the existing platform never come back

Retention is never good for free to play games.

https://www.businessofapps.com/insights/paying-user-and-rolling-retention-rate-benchmarks-across-game-genres-study/

https://www.mistplay.com/resources/mobile-game-retention-benchmarks

I know it's mobile but still, it's pretty relevant. Look, 30 day retention rate is 3% on average. Retention isn't an SL problem, it's a free to play problem. And SL retention is never going to be high when it's free to play and people see what it costs to make an attractive AV.

Free to play retention rates are also very low because there's no risk in trying a F2P game. It's just a download to see if you like it. And yes, sorry for calling SL a game 😅

[Jackson Redstar]

2 hours ago, Flea Yatsenko said:

Retention is never good for free to play games.

https://www.businessofapps.com/insights/paying-user-and-rolling-retention-rate-benchmarks-across-game-genres-study/

https://www.mistplay.com/resources/mobile-game-retention-benchmarks

I know it's mobile but still, it's pretty relevant. Look, 30 day retention rate is 3% on average. Retention isn't an SL problem, it's a free to play problem. And SL retention is never going to be high when it's free to play and people see what it costs to make an attractive AV.

Free to play retention rates are also very low because there's no risk in trying a F2P game. It's just a download to see if you like it. And yes, sorry for calling SL a game 😅

One could 'play' SL free forever, and Linden wouldn't make a penny, Linden is counting on new users to stick around and start spending money on shopping, maybe buying land, maybe become a premium member. Linden's issue seems to be new users never return. Learning how to use the UI, where to go, what to do, making friends all that - I just don't think a mobile app will solve

[Love Zhaoying]

20 minutes ago, Jackson Redstar said:

2 hours ago, Flea Yatsenko said:

Retention is never good for free to play games.

https://www.businessofapps.com/insights/paying-user-and-rolling-retention-rate-benchmarks-across-game-genres-study/

https://www.mistplay.com/resources/mobile-game-retention-benchmarks

I know it's mobile but still, it's pretty relevant. Look, 30 day retention rate is 3% on average. Retention isn't an SL problem, it's a free to play problem. And SL retention is never going to be high when it's free to play and people see what it costs to make an attractive AV.

Free to play retention rates are also very low because there's no risk in trying a F2P game. It's just a download to see if you like it. And yes, sorry for calling SL a game 😅

Expand  

One could 'play' SL free forever, and Linden wouldn't make a penny, Linden is counting on new users to stick around and start spending money on shopping, maybe buying land, maybe become a premium member. Linden's issue seems to be new users never return. Learning how to use the UI, where to go, what to do, making friends all that - I just don't think a mobile app will solve

Perhaps "Basic" Mobile users will have to put up with Ads.

You know, like other Mobile games.

 

[animats]

I wonder what the onboarding experience for mobile users will be like. SL has a terrible time with onboarding. The latest change is to drop new users in the middle of the Community Exhibition at WelcomeHub, instead of at the previous landing circle next to the social area. Doesn't seem to have changed much.

Most of the "mentors" seem to have disappeared. Not seeing many on duty any more. There's nothing for them to do. Not enough new users are arriving. Traffic at WelcomeHub seems to be way down. Of those who arrive, most stand around looking lost.

The user's first hour has to be much better than it is now to retain mobile users. Mobile users will need more direction, because the user's window into the world is smaller and is apparently first-person.

Here's a thought: New users go through something like the old Social Island movement training run. Then, they face a small number of portals: What do you want to do first?

• Fight
• Hang out
• Explore
• Shop

If you choose "Fight", you go through a very basic training scenario, supervised by a drill sergeant mentor who looks and acts like Sgt. Calhoun from Wreck-It Ralph. You get equipment suitable for a Senra body, spend a few minutes in weapons training, and then are thrust into some PvP arena.

The first hour in SL should be more structured.

The "community exhibition" thing is a good idea, but it's too passive. Maybe for groups to have an area there, they have to staff it some number of hours per week.

[filz Camino]

I just read somewhere that the SL app won't allow you to visit Adult rated sims, due to app store content policy!

I think that's going to have quite a big impact on how many people want to use it.

This does highlight one of my main issues with Apple phones and tablets, you aren't free to use them as you wish. You can only use them in ways Tim Cook wants you to use them, it is almost like you don't really own the devices you've paid for.

Since Android does allow side loading of apps, hopefully Linden Labs will release a version for download without the Adult sim block.

Edited 10 hours ago by filz Camino

[Aishagain]

1 hour ago, filz Camino said:

You can only use them in ways Tim Cook wants you to use them, it is almost like you don't really own the devices you've paid for.

And you only realised that NOW?