Revalue the L$ -> $1US = L$100

[Theresa Tennyson]

10 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

The L$ is in dire need of being revalued.

The high number of 'Linden fun monies' per real USD creates the false impression that small amounts of L$ have more value than they actually present.

1 real money American dollar is worth 100 pennies. 1 Linden dollar isn't even worth that.

L$1000 is not a lot of money, but it looks and sounds like it might be.

L$10,000 .. wow, that's obviously a fortune!!

The difference between L$499 and L$299 is about a fun sized candy bar, you know, the size that isn't fun. But it's psychologically enough to make someone think twice about a purchase.

Did you tip a DJ L$100 for an hours entertainment.

What if the entire crowd, as big as it can be at 80 all people tipped (and we all know most don't tip a bean) L$100. L$8000 !! WOW !! .. US $32 .. that's US $17 after fees and income tax. .. It's a bit yikes once you do the math isn't it.

 

We're selling ourselves short, delivering hand crafted Etsy artistry at prices too cheap for Temu, and complaining about it. All while our core life blood content creators literally starve trying to compete with content farms and piracy.

This needs fixing.

You're ignoring the fact that probably the vast majority of Lindens in people's hands aren't "made" in-world, they're bought with fiat currency. Therefore, someone selling them would want people to think, "Hey, these are cheap; I'll buy more." And nobody has to live off of Second Life earnings - ultimately no matter what the exchange rate is, odds are somebody with equivalent skills will undercut someone trying to be paid a living wage just because they feel like doing what they're being paid for.

Edited April 2 by Theresa Tennyson

[Phil Deakins]

I didn't read the whole thread but, imo, the idea is nonsense.

SL is an enjoyable pastime, and often a hobby. Businesses in SL are hobby businesses, and time spent doing them is hobby time. Yes, a few people are successful enough in their hobby SL businesses to make RL livelihoods from them, and can even (usually foolishly) quit their RL jobs to pursue them, but that's only a very few people.

The result of matching up SL hobby-working time to RL livelihood-working time, and charging the equivalent of RL amounts for the labours, would be to kill off most of the spending in SL and, consequently, most of the SL businesses, imo.

Some exceptions would be doing things for other people, such as scripting and making meshes - things that take RL non-hobby time.

[steeljane42]

Another year, another terrible idea. That one might actually be worse than the another currency one from a while ago, since it's not just useless, but would likely cause chaos for both creators and customers alike.

I'm glad LL are not taking some of those "great ideas" seriously, from forums and various in-world meetings.

[Modulated]

I don't know how anyone could hang their hat on a SL income to begin with , unless you are one of the lucky few squeezing serious money out of this place, not sure what whining about it is good for.  Go ahead price your stuff so high no one will buy it, then come back and see where you are. 

Reality is calling, please join it.

[Love Zhaoying]

9 hours ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

You're conflating roleplay with someone actually doing work and earning money that gets taxed (again, assuming one is doing real DJing and moving money out of SL).

I can use a better example, though - a creator or team who makes mesh heads/bodies/clothing/mods/what have you and spends weeks (months) doing intense 3D modeling and animating selling items for $1-20 USD in-world where their custom SL and out of SL commissions would cost thousands (in USD) for the same time spent - if anyone actually paid for that. Easier comparison there.

I don't know about revaluing the L, but I do know I've told people to stop spending hours for pennies.

Ok, here are two other DJ-specific counter-arguments to assertions made by the OP, keeping in mind that I have others; these are just top on my list.

1) The "base" argument would appear to be that SL DJ's deserve to be paid just as  RL DJ's deserve to be paid. I submit that while "everyone deserves to be paid", RL DJ's are paid different rates depending on their experience, reputation, skill, and the venue or event (for example a "dive bar" vs. a posh club or wedding party).

An amateur / hobbyist DJ who plays a predetermined set list of their own choice doesn't "deserve" the same compensation as a "professional" DJ who tailors their set list to the venue / event, takes requests, mixes, etc. They simply haven't earned the same compensation for the same work.

2) RL DJ's are not compensated mostly by tips, neither is everyone expected to tip. Their primary pay is from the venue, or whoever planned the event. In turn, the RL venue derives its income from some method (door charge, food / alcohol sales, etc.) - not "tips".

In summary: no, all DJ's in SL don't deserve to be paid just like in RL. Expecting "real pay" in SL to come from tips is a false comparison with RL.

The DJ example given by the OP was a poor strawman argument.

 

[Love Zhaoying]

1 hour ago, Phil Deakins said:

I didn't read the whole thread but, imo, the idea is nonsense.

SL is an enjoyable pastime, and often a hobby. Businesses in SL are hobby businesses, and time spent doing them is hobby time. Yes, a few people are successful enough in their hobby SL businesses to make RL livelihoods from them, and can even (usually foolishly) quit their RL jobs to pursue them, but that's only a very few people.

The result of matching up SL hobby-working time to RL livelihood-working time, and charging the equivalent of RL amounts for the labours, would be to kill off most of the spending in SL and, consequently, most of the SL businesses, imo.

Some exceptions would be doing things for other people, such as scripting and making meshes - things that take RL non-hobby time.

Yes. Someone who comes into SL expecting RL-level compensation is misinformed or deluded.

Adding: I expect we shall see "the sky is falling" arguments tied to all this, too.

[Sid Nagy]

10 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Plus in some countries, US$17 is a LOT. Possibly the assumptions in the OP are an example of US-centrism.

But only in countries where they can not play SL because of poor Internet and to high SL expenses.
If USD 17 is a lot of money to earn, it is also a lot of money to pay for a somewhat decent avatar.

[Love Zhaoying]

9 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

But only in countries where they can not play SL because of poor Internet

I respectfully disagree on this point, the US has overrated internet, I had read that many other "poorer" countries have better internet.  Also, many rural areas of the US have basically "no internet" unless they use poor "satellite" internet.

11 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

If USD 17 is a lot of money to earn, it is also a lot of money to pay for a somewhat decent avatar.

One big reason to keep things "cheap" - if the majority of users is to grow past "mostly US users" (as many assume), then we need "inexpensive" things for them to buy; in that context it is more fair to keep things the same "inexpensive" price for everyone.

 

 

[Sid Nagy]

SL isn't RL.
People who need a RL income should try to make it in RL.
Open a webstore, rent a stall on the local market, become a burger flipper.

As Phil already pointed out. Seeing SL as a source of RL income isn't really realistic.
I like making things, so I make them and sell them.
But the returns aren't even a dollar an hour worked. But who cares? I don't.

The nice thing is, if I don't work a few weeks in SL, the money comes in doing nothing.
But to stay relevant, one has to produce on a regular basis.

Edited April 2 by Sid Nagy

[AmeliaJ08]

10 hours ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

As someone who enjoys selling one-of-a-kind abstract art that takes me a few hours to do for the equivalent of $1.50, not sure even what's being discussed here anymore. 🤷‍♀️ 👋

I love my Katherine Heartsong $1.50 original! It's hanging proudly on my wall

[TheVeryFirst]

 

With a lot of the talk about this centering around DJ’s, you don’t even need to make any changes for them to make what ever amount they like. Just change the Cover: Free to Cover: 5000L$.

That could be a bit low but it will give you a pretty good idea of how higher prices will be viewed and you don’t need to change Second Life at all.

 

[Yorkie Bardeen]

It's bad enough when a DJ "friend" wants you to visit some club, and there's five people there- the owner, the DJ, the host and two afk alts of the owner and now you're talking about charging.

[Jaylinbridges]

33 minutes ago, TheVeryFirst said:

With a lot of the talk about this centering around DJ’s, you don’t even need to make any changes for them to make what ever amount they like. Just change the Cover: Free to Cover: 5000L$.

Pancake is talking about raising the Cover Charge from 40 cents to 80 cents.  Most club goers tip 100 L if they tip at all, so that is their cover charge.  The only thing you will get residents to pay for is their avatar, and exclusive clothes.  A club that charges 100 L as a cover charge will probably lose half their patrons.  SL residents and club goers will spend on themselves, before supporting entertainers. 

[Jaylinbridges]

1 hour ago, Sid Nagy said:

As Phil already pointed out. Seeing SL as a source of RL income isn't really realistic

Of course not for 98% of the SL working residents.  But it can be a source of supplemental income, even if it is only 5% of your RL income.  And in some cases that extra 5% can make a big difference.  I realize most here cannot understand that.

 

Edited April 2 by Jaylinbridges

[Rowan Amore]

Leaving the DJ comments aside, anyone working weeks or months making something for SL only shouldn't expect RL wages.  The people who make content for games who should get paid RL wages are.people who work for a RL company.   SL content creators don't work for LL or EA or Blizzard.  

When I buy something from a seller on Etsy, I receive an actual product that the seller made.  Maybe they only made one and I pay quite bit for it.  If not, they make each and every item over and over and over.  Again, not the same as making an entirely virtual item you make once.  

Edited April 2 by Rowan Amore

[Love Zhaoying]

4 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

When I buy something from a seller on Etsy, I receive an actual product that the seller made. 

A few years ago a controversy started about this (not that it ever ended).  A popular blogger created a very funny blog about how even at that time, Etsy products were trending towards factory-made.  They were eventually sued..and convinced to take down their blog (either by Etsy or their employer, who happened to be Disney).

My point is, Etsy was "at one time" supposed to be mostly small sellers with hand-crafted items.  Etsy several years ago stopped making that claim.  Still, in many people's minds Etsy is associated with "hand-made" / small sellers.

THE TRUTH IS OUT THEY'RE!!1!! 

 

[Phil Deakins]

1 minute ago, Jaylinbridges said:

Of course not for 98% of the SL working residents.  But it can be a source of supplemental income, even if it is only 5% of your RL income.  And in some cases that extra 5% make a big difference.  I realize most here can't understand that.

I believe that you are mistaken about most here not undstanding about supplementing an RL income. I imagine that everyobe understands it. But it's far from the point. The point is that, if SL prices matched RL prices, then shopping would plummet to be relatively negligable, and the SL population (those who actually continued in such circumstances) would hardly buy anything at all, and the majority of businesses would be a great deal worse off.

The OP's idea seems to want real businesses for real wages here in SL. But that isn't what SL has ever been about, even though a few have actually done it - I was one of them. One of the biggest beauties of SL is that anyone can start to create or entertain, and start a small hobby business - just for the fun of it.

Anyway, I think the whole thing is a silly idea

 

[Love Zhaoying]

3 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

I believe that you are mistaken about most here not undstanding about supplementing an RL income. I imagine that everyobe understands it. But it's far from the point. The point is that, if SL prices matched RL prices, then shopping would plummet to be relatively negligable, and the SL population (those who actually continued in such circumstances) would hardly buy anything at all, and the majority of businesses would be a great deal worse off.

The OP's idea seems to want real businesses for real wages here in SL. But that isn't what SL has ever been about, even though a few have actually done it - I was one of them. One of the biggest beauties of SL is that anyone can start to create or entertain, and start a small hobby business - just for the fun of it.

Anyway, I think the whole thing is a silly idea

 

Yep! If everything in SL somehow was priced to "make people money", it would be..an "SL Killer"!!

 

[Rowan Amore]

9 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

A few years ago a controversy started about this (not that it ever ended).  A popular blogger created a very funny blog about how even at that time, Etsy products were trending towards factory-made.  They were eventually sued..and convinced to take down their blog (either by Etsy or their employer, who happened to be Disney).

My point is, Etsy was "at one time" supposed to be mostly small sellers with hand-crafted items.  Etsy several years ago stopped making that claim.  Still, in many people's minds Etsy is associated with "hand-made" / small sellers.

THE TRUTH IS OUT THEY'RE!!1!! 

 

I've never actually purchased off Etsy.  I have purchased 'handmade' items on Amazon.  Whether or not they are, indeed, handmade, who knows but the seller would have to at least pay to have those items made.  Maitreya isn't toiling away making 38753853 mesh bodies to sell.  They made one.  They sell one and there's another one waiting to be sold.   I purchase a humanoid robot in RL.  That person then has to make more.  More time, more raw materials, more employees, more electric, more rent, etc.   

As some are so fond of telling us in regards to other things, SL is not RL.  Or is it like RL only when it's in your best interest?

Edited April 2 by Rowan Amore

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

I've never actually purchased off Etsy.  I have purchased 'handmade' items on Amazon.  Whether or not they are, indeed, handmade, who knows but the seller would have to at least pay to have those items made.  Maitreya isn't toiling away making 38753853 mesh bodies to sell.  They made one.  They sell one and there's another one waiting to be sold.   I purchase a humanoid robot in RL.  That person then has to make more.  More time, more raw materials, more employees, more electric, more rent, etc.   

As some are so fond of telling us in regards to other things, SL is not RL.  Or is it like RL only when it's in your best interest?

Gachas are the SL version of NFT's!

"This one is unique so costs more."

But on Etsy: I have (and will again) buy certain things from there that I have only found on there (whether or not they are "handmade" is irrelevant, I need the thing).  If I could find it on Amazon, I'd buy it there instead.

 

[Jaylinbridges]

16 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

The OP's idea seems to want real businesses for real wages here in SL

I don't know about that.  Her proposal was to make $1 = 100 L, instead of $1 = 250 L.  Will that break the SL economy? The point is 100 L to some residents seems like $100, because they are really bad at math.  So they tip 100 L and think they are being generous. 

I would love a business where I could design 1 product, and sell 1.000.000 copies, at no extra cost to me.  There should a law against that.  

Edited April 2 by Jaylinbridges

[Arielle Popstar]

14 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

We're selling ourselves short, delivering hand crafted Etsy artistry at prices too cheap for Temu, and complaining about it. All while our core life blood content creators literally starve trying to compete with content farms and piracy.

This needs fixing.

If one is selling themselves short, then maybe one should look at how they are marketing themselves, their product(s) and where. If a market is dwindling or competition too fierce, prices will drop, not increase. So maybe there are other platforms out there where there is a demand for the products being offered.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

1 hour ago, Sid Nagy said:

SL isn't RL.
People who need a RL income should try to make it in RL.
Open a webstore, rent a stall on the local market, become a burger flipper.

As Phil already pointed out. Seeing SL as a source of RL income isn't really realistic.
I like making things, so I make them and sell them.
But the returns aren't even a dollar an hour worked. But who cares? I don't.

The nice thing is, if I don't work a few weeks in SL, the money comes in doing nothing.
But to stay relevant, one has to produce on a regular basis.

While I agree with some of this, for a lot of people, SL is just that - a way to make real income and survive.

Should it be like that? Absolutely not. Honestly, given everything I've seen and the conversations I've had, I've said we should take Lindens out of the equation entirely and play with fake game money we can't buy or convert to real currencies and have to earn in-world just to kill the temptation to even begin that cycle (yes that's a terrible idea - I know - no I'm not being serious). But that was just me riffing after several depressing convos about 3D creators doing full-time work here as it's one of their few remaining options to provide for themselves (for various reasons across the board - some have challenges that make doing other work difficult, etc.) but still struggling to live. With SL's relatively low barrier to entry (meaning you don't need to jump through hoops and write resumes and pitch to companies/projects and pay for "connects" and all that garbage just to get started), I can see why people try to make it work here, when they probably really shouldn't.

It's not really a unique-to-SL problem either. I've had the same discussions with other skilled creatives and contractors and freelancers pouring their hearts and souls and hours upon hours of work into projects only to be paid the saddest wages that ever did wage (if they were ever paid at all). Hell, there were times just starting out in freelancing where I was paid $7 for a fully researched article I put a good day into. That was pretty much my rock bottom turning point, though, and I managed to get out of that nonsense real quick. For many, they struggle with that part - even after years of that.

 

2 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

If one is selling themselves short, then maybe one should look at how they are marketing themselves, their product(s) and where. If a market is dwindling or competition too fierce, prices will drop, not increase. So maybe there are other platforms out there where there is a demand for the products being offered.

This is a really good point, but you'd be surprised (or maybe you wouldn't!) at how many creatives absolutely suck at self-promo and marketing their skills. I've seen this so often. I've learned pretty much you absolutely have to reinvent yourself and conduct yourself entirely as a business with a full logo, website, brand, contracts, etc. (not just a sole freelancer/creator/contractor/etc.) otherwise, you'll never make a living wage doing anything. Customers, clients, and companies take you far more seriously once you start doing that. The problem is so many people can't do it (or so they tell themselves) due to a lack of self-confidence. 

[Love Zhaoying]

4 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

This is a really good point, but you'd be surprised (or maybe you wouldn't!) at how many creatives absolutely suck at self-promo and marketing their skills

Part of the "beauty" of the SLMP, is that it "evens the playing field". 

[Ayashe Ninetails]

58 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Again, not the same as making an entirely virtual item you make once.  

This is very true and what usually takes a $1,000+ USD commission down to a 2000L+ product in-world - the ability to resell.

Problem is, I've then turned around and gotten those 2000L items for under 200L during a few wheee yolo sales - and these aren't hugely in-demand items, so I know they're not making a killing or anything, and considering how few buy/use them, they aren't that far off from a private commission anyway. At that point, I started to feel as if I was ripping off the artist, lol, which is definitely more of a ME problem than a THEM problem, but ya know. It's how I am.

So - raise ya prices don't sell me this thing for almost no money iz u cray? Oh hi Aya, have some free.. nuuu u stop dat! Etc.

 

1 hour ago, Rowan Amore said:

When I buy something from a seller on Etsy, I receive an actual product that the seller made. 

Just to point out the absolute obvious for no reason whatsoever, Etsy sellers grossly undersell themselves, too. Of course, that varies by market/niche, but when Etsy is allowing shameless dropselling to occur, some of the real artists lowered their prices to compete and yeah - it's a bad time. That's not even getting into the digital products that may or may not even be "handmade" in the first place vs. bought on Envato or some mess - pour one out for the illustrators.