Qie Niangao Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 Just now, Love Zhaoying said: it may have been hard to tell I was actually serious I did steal the idea, but I refuse to abandon a good April Fool's joke just because I'm late to the thread—nor just because everybody else is pretending to take it seriously. 3 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathlen Onyx Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 8 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: I'm not comprehending your logic here. Because those creating virtual goods can resell items then they should be grateful for this feature and be paid beans? No Luna, you aren't getting it. They don't have to be paid beans. You can simply not do it if you don't believe the compensation is enough for your effort. 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathlen Onyx Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 3 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: Imagine if a woodworker created 50 tables and only one of them sold. Because that's the gamble SL creators have to take -- not everything they create resells at a good rate, and so if money is important to them then they've pretty much wasted their time. I agree with you there. There is some pretty ugly stuff out there. Obviously the creator didn't vet their audience very well if this happens. I'm not paying any amount of money for two strings and a square of material, ever. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 1 minute ago, Kathlen Onyx said: 11 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: I'm not comprehending your logic here. Because those creating virtual goods can resell items then they should be grateful for this feature and be paid beans? No Luna, you aren't getting it. They don't have to be paid beans. You can simply not do it if you don't believe the compensation is enough for your effort. Oh....people can choose not to create here? I never thought of that...thanks for enlightening me... /sarcasm Onyx, sometimes situations occur in any society where people are treated unfairly, and the people who care attempt to remedy the predicament as best they can. Telling them to basically f-off if they don't like what's happening to them is no solution. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 16 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said: I'm suggesting that the L$ presents a high apparent value, and that this exerts a downward pressure on the entire economy. But if the L$ represented a low apparent value, why would people buy them? Current protocol: "Ooo, 2000 Lindens for one $10.00 clicky? I'll do that..." Revised protocol gets means significantly fewer Lindens or a significantly bigger clicky. Either one might mean no clicky at all, and even if clickys continue as each Linden becomes more preshuss it increases the friction of spending them. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orwar Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 15 minutes ago, Kathlen Onyx said: Imagine if a woodworker made a beautiful table and it just multiplied by magic without having to lift a finger besides making the initial table. I bet they'd be happy. As a former carpenter .. Yes. Although I do enjoy the whole production process, the only thing I felt got monotonous was when we were making batches of coffins (very plain ones) or that one time I had to sand wheels for a few hundred wooden toy elephants. But it would certainly let us push the prices down. Who knows, might even get comparable to IKEA's prices - couldn't buy the timber to make a table for the money it costs to buy a finished table there. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee Pancake Posted April 2 Author Share Posted April 2 19 minutes ago, Kathlen Onyx said: Well then, you'd better go out and "sell" that tree. You'll need to sell about 2000 of them. Did I mention you are still earning on the original time it took you to make one tree. Imagine if a woodworker made a beautiful table and it just multiplied by magic without having to lift a finger besides making the initial table. I bet they'd be happy. Lets so some MATH - Say you make a TREE - You spend one WEEK on the TREE - Sell that TREE for L$199 because that the price set by the market. How long does the TREE have marketable value, will LL release new tools that make your TREE TRASH before it has had chance to earn the required amount? How many trees do you have to sell to attain parity with a min wage burger flipping job? 1000 TREES with a 2 year shelf life? That's L$199000 ! A whopping US$796 for a weeks work, of which you get to keep 60% after Linden fees and income tax. US$477 total spread over two years. (Which is pretty terrible, and doesn't compete with the min wage job that will include a corporate rate healthcare plan and other perks. You likely need land to show off your items and that gets expensive fast for outdoor stuff) What if this tree is a DUD and it doesn't sell, for no discernible reason. What if the actual SL economy is event driven and you have two week in which to make 80% of your sales for TREE and they want L$9000 to book a stall. A bad stall off to the side. All the good ones are assigned to the event operators friends. What if someone rips off your TREE and sell it for L$50 in the weekend sales. 6 minutes ago, Kathlen Onyx said: No Luna, you aren't getting it. They don't have to be paid beans. You can simply not do it if you don't believe the compensation is enough for your effort. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathlen Onyx Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said: Oh....people can choose not to create here? I never thought of that...thanks for enlightening me... /sarcasm Onyx, sometimes situations occur in any society where people are treated unfairly, and the people who care attempt to remedy the predicament as best they can. Telling them to basically f-off if they don't like what's happening to them is no solution. First and foremost. My name is Kathlen. Please use it. Second, people do this in RL all the time. Lots of people leave jobs because they don't feel that the amount of work they do is worth the pay. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said: Oh....people can choose not to create here? I never thought of that...thanks for enlightening me... /sarcasm Onyx, sometimes situations occur in any society where people are treated unfairly. It's unfair for somebody to be paid badly for something that nobody asked them to do at all? Squeegie guys at stop lights must love you. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 1 minute ago, Kathlen Onyx said: 7 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: Imagine if a woodworker created 50 tables and only one of them sold. Because that's the gamble SL creators have to take -- not everything they create resells at a good rate, and so if money is important to them then they've pretty much wasted their time. I agree with you there. There is some pretty ugly stuff out there. Obviously the creator didn't vet their audience very well if this happens. I'm not paying any amount of money for two strings and a square of material, ever. You're assuming what the creator made is inferior somehow and so that's why it didn't sell, but that's not always the case. Often it's just not what the majority wants, and there's often no way to have this knowledge before hand. So as I said, it's a gamble, you take a risk, and often your 1 good-selling item cannot make up for the non-selling ones (I mentioned this to point out that being able to resell an item is not the wonderful advantage you were painting it to be). Plus, there are so many additional factors that allow an item to sell. Competence in advertising being one of the skills among others. So it's much more complicated than just having a poorly made item. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathlen Onyx Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said: Lets so some MATH - Say you make a TREE - You spend one WEEK on the TREE - Sell that TREE for L$199 because that the price set by the market. How long does the TREE have marketable value, will LL release new tools that make your TREE TRASH before it has had chance to earn the required amount? How many trees do you have to sell to attain parity with a min wage burger flipping job? 1000 TREES with a 2 year shelf life? That's L$199000 ! A whopping US$796 for a weeks work, of which you get to keep 60% after Linden fees and income tax. US$477 total spread over two years. (Which is pretty terrible, and doesn't compete with the min wage job that will include a corporate rate healthcare plan and other perks. You likely need land to show off your items and that gets expensive fast for outdoor stuff) What if this tree is a DUD and it doesn't sell, for no discernible reason. What if the actual SL economy is event driven and you have two week in which to make 80% of your sales for TREE and they want L$9000 to book a stall. A bad stall off to the side. All the good ones are assigned to the event operators friends. What if someone rips off your TREE and sell it for L$50 in the weekend sales. There are plenty of trees on the marketplace and inworld that look perfectly beautiful a lot longer than 2 years. The rest of this post has nothing to do with your original post. Now you want us to compensate you for possibly theft of goods? Edited April 2 by Kathlen Onyx 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 3 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said: It's unfair for somebody to be paid badly for something that nobody asked them to do at all? Squeegie guys at stop lights must love you. I'm referring to artists and other low-wage earners in our society, like teachers and others in helping professions who earn less overall -- we need to value them more and pay higher wages. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathlen Onyx Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 8 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said: But if the L$ represented a low apparent value, why would people buy them? Current protocol: "Ooo, 2000 Lindens for one $10.00 clicky? I'll do that..." Revised protocol gets means significantly fewer Lindens or a significantly bigger clicky. Either one might mean no clicky at all, and even if clickys continue as each Linden becomes more preshuss it increases the friction of spending them. SL word of the day...clickys. Love it! 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathlen Onyx Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: I'm referring to artists and other low-wage earners in our society, like teachers and others in helping professions who earn less overall -- we need to value them more and pay higher wages. Now you are bringing RL into the mix and that is a no-no and has no bearing on this thread conversation at all. Mainly because creators are not in the helping profession. Edited April 2 by Kathlen Onyx 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 6 minutes ago, Kathlen Onyx said: Second, people do this in RL all the time. Lots of people leave jobs because they don't feel that the amount of work they do is worth the pay. Yes, they do. But this doesn't solve the problem I'm addressing -- a lack of respect, demonstrated by low wages, for those who benefit our society via working jobs as teachers and artists. This can only change by championing their importance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathlen Onyx Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: You're assuming what the creator made is inferior somehow and so that's why it didn't sell, but that's not always the case. Often it's just not what the majority wants, and there's often no way to have this knowledge before hand. So as I said, it's a gamble, you take a risk, and often your 1 good-selling item cannot make up for the non-selling ones (I mentioned this to point out that being able to resell an item is not the wonderful advantage you were painting it to be). Plus, there are so many additional factors that allow an item to sell. Competence in advertising being one of the skills among others. So it's much more complicated than just having a poorly made item. Ok but if a creator of a microwave didn't sell their particular model what happens? They reduce the price and have a lightening sale. So the item is not worth more, it's worth LESS. Edited April 2 by Kathlen Onyx 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 4 minutes ago, Kathlen Onyx said: SL word of the day...clickys. Love it! I'm thinking it reminds me of either castanets, or that annoying clicking people do with their nails in videos these days! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathlen Onyx Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 Just now, Love Zhaoying said: I'm thinking it reminds me of either castanets, or that annoying clicking people do with their nails in videos these days! OMG I hate that as much as the wagging finger! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 2 minutes ago, Kathlen Onyx said: OMG I hate that as much as the wagging finger! We need this as a gesture in SL. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 6 minutes ago, Kathlen Onyx said: Now you are bringing RL into the mix and that is a no-no and has no bearing on this thread conversation at all. Mainly because creators are not in the helping profession. People who create in SL frequently use their earnings to pay bills in RL. The separation you're attempting to make does not exist. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 4 minutes ago, Kathlen Onyx said: Ok but if a creator of a microwave didn't sell their particular model what happens? They reduce the price and have a lightening sale. So the item is not worth more, it's worth LESS. Not sure of your logic here. Again, I was trying to point out that it is not such an advantage (to be able to resell items) as you made it out to be. There are complications, complexities, that you were unaware of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 16 minutes ago, Kathlen Onyx said: 20 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said: Lets so some MATH - Say you make a TREE - You spend one WEEK on the TREE - Sell that TREE for L$199 because that the price set by the market. How long does the TREE have marketable value, will LL release new tools that make your TREE TRASH before it has had chance to earn the required amount? How many trees do you have to sell to attain parity with a min wage burger flipping job? 1000 TREES with a 2 year shelf life? That's L$199000 ! A whopping US$796 for a weeks work, of which you get to keep 60% after Linden fees and income tax. US$477 total spread over two years. (Which is pretty terrible, and doesn't compete with the min wage job that will include a corporate rate healthcare plan and other perks. You likely need land to show off your items and that gets expensive fast for outdoor stuff) What if this tree is a DUD and it doesn't sell, for no discernible reason. What if the actual SL economy is event driven and you have two week in which to make 80% of your sales for TREE and they want L$9000 to book a stall. A bad stall off to the side. All the good ones are assigned to the event operators friends. What if someone rips off your TREE and sell it for L$50 in the weekend sales. Expand There are plenty of trees on the marketplace and inworld that look perfectly beautiful a lot longer than 2 years. The rest of this post has nothing to do with your original post. Now you want us to compensate you for possibly theft of goods? All factors need to be taken into consideration when determining wages in any world. The losses incurred via theft should be one of those factors. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Persephone Emerald Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said: 30 usd for a skirt? Who exactly is championing that? Not me, in other words. What I'm advocating for is that artists, in any venue (RL or SL) be paid more for their efforts. I never said it should be on par with RL wages exactly. Are you equating more with totally the same? When people imagine they're paying big bucks for something while in fact they're paying pennies, this misperception does not help the cause! So I stand by Coffee's proposal. Prices for food and fuel are set by corporations for the most part, and since these are necessities we have to pay these prices. Art, no matter how much we may like it, is not a necessity, so you can't make people pay more for it. People will pay what they're willing to pay and no more than that. Some industries such as news and entertainment get extra revenue by selling advertising mixed in with the content their consumers actually want. Perhaps you'd like to try this? How would you like to include paid advertisements with your work? SL magazines do this, even while their photos could be considered art. It's fine to be a free and independent artist if you can survive on selling your work, but no matter how good and important you think it is, there is no way to force people to pay for it. Video games and platforms are a kind of art too, as well as being social platforms. People will not pay more for them than they can afford. And I really don't think we want to see paid advertising in SL to support an otherwise "free" platform. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said: It's fine to be a free and independent artist if you can survive on selling your work, but no matter how good and important you think it is, there is no way to force people to pay for it. Never said force. What I am saying is that our attitudes need to change in society overall in terms of what we value and provide compensation for (monetarily). Many are attempting to change this, and through education attempt to achieve better wages for teachers, artists, musicians, those in the helping professions. It's an uphill battle though. Those who want to squeeze the most money out of society have the upper hand. Edited April 2 by Luna Bliss 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 29 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said: 1000 TREES with a 2 year shelf life? That's L$199000 ! A whopping US$796 for a weeks work, of which you get to keep 60% after Linden fees and income tax. US$477 total spread over two years. You're complaining about being paid hundreds of dollars to make imaginary trees that nobody asked you to make. 1 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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