Is Second Life more toxic than other games in general?

[Prokofy Neva]

8 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

After thinking about it a couple days and looking back over the last few decades, I'm realizing that the short answer is being open to acknowledging, accepting, forgiving and making amends for one's own toxicities in what ever form they take, that one loses the insecurity and feelings of unworthiness that some of us are prone to. 

The techniques for doing all that may differ but those are in my own opinion and experience the principles needed to be worked towards.

Had a gal fly up and hand me $7000L in her account to make amends for her griefing me with a gang of losers for years. 

That's the sort of reparations we must all encourage. I got a mesh body, mesh head, and bought some original art works.

In general, I don't think griefers reform, however. They just grow older and write thinky faux scholarly papers about "transgressive behaviour," "altnerative communicative strategies," and "signifying otherness" in virtual worlds.

[Prokofy Neva]

10 hours ago, Myth Valeska said:

The beauty of SL is that peace is but a TP or mute away lol. Drama and toxicity can be found in every corner of the internet as many have already said. I personally don't participate in it and go to my happy place and decorate my house!

Yes, I would often go to my happy place, called "my real-life apartment in the real world," whereupon griefers from SL would call my RL phone and play the Soviet National Anthem in the middle of the night, scaring my RL children. Sure.

[Love Zhaoying]

1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

since Cain and Abel, since Beaver and Eddie Haskell

Far too often, Goofus and Gallant are left out of these lists. Children of my generation were forced to read of their exploits in doctor's waiting room magazines.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goofus_and_Gallant

1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

"Gee, Mrs. Cleaver, that's a lovely dress!"

I got the feeling that little creep just wanted to bone poor June. Yechh.

[Luna Bliss]

12 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

On 12/26/2023 at 3:34 PM, Luna Bliss said:

Can you share the actions you take to get out of feeling insecure and unworthy?

I suggested a couple ways to get out of a funk (writing, speaking to a trusted friend) but I'm sure there are other methods people find works for them.

After thinking about it a couple days and looking back over the last few decades, I'm realizing that the short answer is being open to acknowledging, accepting, forgiving and making amends for one's own toxicities in what ever form they take, that one loses the insecurity and feelings of unworthiness that some of us are prone to. 

The techniques for doing all that may differ but those are in my own opinion and experience the principles needed to be worked towards.

I do love these principles you cite (central to the Alcoholics Anonymous approach for creating a better life). I just want to point out though that this advice is given within the context of the caring and supportive community in AA, and not one in which an individual is shamed into taking responsibility for oneself. In other words, love or acceptance is crucial.

So bringing this back to our OP, while in my estimation she does indeed need to eventually take responsibility for having a more positive life in SL I don't want to attempt to blame and shame her into doing so.

Edited December 29, 2023 by Luna Bliss

[Love Zhaoying]

52 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I don't want to attempt to blame and shame her into doing so.

Because it would be wrong..?

Or because your attempt may backfire..?

Personally, I find it fascinating that you felt the need to tell us this!

 

[Persephone Emerald]

1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

I do love these principles you cite (central to the Alcoholics Anonymous approach for creating a better life). I just want to point out though that this advice is given within the context of the caring and supportive community in AA, and not one in which an individual is shamed into taking responsibility for oneself. In other words, love or acceptance is crucial.

So bringing this back to our OP, while in my estimation she does indeed need to eventually take responsibility for having a more positive life in SL I don't want to attempt to blame and shame her into doing so.

I don't see blaming and shaming in Arielle's response. 

[Luna Bliss]

12 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

I do love these principles you cite (central to the Alcoholics Anonymous approach for creating a better life). I just want to point out though that this advice is given within the context of the caring and supportive community in AA, and not one in which an individual is shamed into taking responsibility for oneself. In other words, love or acceptance is crucial.

So bringing this back to our OP, while in my estimation she does indeed need to eventually take responsibility for having a more positive life in SL I don't want to attempt to blame and shame her into doing so.

I don't see blaming and shaming in Arielle's response. 

I don't either -- I don't see blaming and shaming in Arielle's response.

I'm commenting on the AA approach that Arielle and I have discussed many times, and simply pointing out that it's important (whenever we advise that another take responsibility for themselves, or even when we face the fact that we need to take responsibility for ourselves) that we do so in love, as opposed to whipping ourselves into taking responsibility.

I was actually, at the time I wrote it, more concerned that Arielle is too harsh with herself at times.

Edited December 29, 2023 by Luna Bliss

[Love Zhaoying]

31 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

I don't see blaming and shaming in Arielle's response. 

I think we all see things using the "filter" we wear 24/7 (based on experience, education, personal viewpoints, etc.).  How else could we see them?

The entire "take personal responsibility" movement probably was born from something similar.  

I thought the topic was supposed to be more "objective" than "subjective". In this case, whether one "sees" Second Life as "Toxic" isn't apparently the intended topic, but rather "IS Second Life more Toxic", etc.

 

Edited December 29, 2023 by Love Zhaoying

[Arielle Popstar]

6 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Had a gal fly up and hand me $7000L in her account to make amends for her griefing me with a gang of losers for years. 

That's the sort of reparations we must all encourage. I got a mesh body, mesh head, and bought some original art works.

In general, I don't think griefers reform, however. They just grow older and write thinky faux scholarly papers about "transgressive behaviour," "altnerative communicative strategies," and "signifying otherness" in virtual worlds.

Good for her, not so much for your sake as hers in that she cleared up her conscience rather than sear it or have to drown it with alcohol or drugs. Those methods are more common unfortunately but I feel that is because too many are not aware of the ramifications when one sells out to their own toxicity.

Reminds me of an incident a number of years ago when I used to operate a business where extending casual credit to a customer was a standard procedure so that when a guy asked if he could have a burger and drink until payday, I readily agreed in spite of his many assurances of his honesty and intent to pay, realizing from experience that the more one is trying to convince me, the less likely I will ever see the monies. Sure enough I didn't see him again for a number of months until one day I saw him come out of the employee entrance and literally slink by my mobile shop with eyes cast down and body angled away in hopes I wouldn't spot him. At that moment the realization struck that this was a man who had literally traded in his self worth and respect for a $5 meal. I had already forgave him and let the amount go but still felt sad for him, realizing he just didn't know how much that burger and drink had really cost him. 

[Prokofy Neva]

3 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Good for her, not so much for your sake as hers in that she cleared up her conscience rather than sear it or have to drown it with alcohol or drugs. Those methods are more common unfortunately but I feel that is because too many are not aware of the ramifications when one sells out to their own toxicity.

Reminds me of an incident a number of years ago when I used to operate a business where extending casual credit to a customer was a standard procedure so that when a guy asked if he could have a burger and drink until payday, I readily agreed in spite of his many assurances of his honesty and intent to pay, realizing from experience that the more one is trying to convince me, the less likely I will ever see the monies. Sure enough I didn't see him again for a number of months until one day I saw him come out of the employee entrance and literally slink by my mobile shop with eyes cast down and body angled away in hopes I wouldn't spot him. At that moment the realization struck that this was a man who had literally traded in his self worth and respect for a $5 meal. I had already forgave him and let the amount go but still felt sad for him, realizing he just didn't know how much that burger and drink had really cost him. 

Let me suggest that four years of crashing my sims and driving my paying tenants away, and hounding me in SL and RL, would be a value greater than $7000L, so I'm all for any kind of compensation. 

"Forgive your enemies and do good to those who hate you" -- if only it worked in SL like it works in RL! 

[Arielle Popstar]

2 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Let me suggest that four years of crashing my sims and driving my paying tenants away, and hounding me in SL and RL, would be a value greater than $7000L, so I'm all for any kind of compensation. 

"Forgive your enemies and do good to those who hate you" -- if only it worked in SL like it works in RL! 

Sure but it should lead me to ask myself what it is about me that attracts people like that.

[Amanda Crisp]

16 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Always and everywhere, since time immemorial, since Cain and Abel, since Beaver and Eddie Haskell, griefers have pretended that they are cultural or political and you are behind the times and that you just haven't learned to use de-render. 

"Am I my brother's keeper?"

"Gee, Mrs. Cleaver, that's a lovely dress!"

It's a method in and of itself so I don't buy it and never have. Move along.

 

The proverbial serpent may have caught its tail 🙂

[Robberinthemuseum]

On 12/26/2023 at 1:40 AM, Sid Nagy said:

The forums aren't that toxic at all IMHO. There are far worse places on the Internet.
Of course one needs a bit of skin at places where things are discussed (no matter what the subject is). Most discussions go down pretty civil here, if you ask me.

I never found SL to be toxic at all, but then again I'm never really in SL, I have a puppet in SL and I'm behind the keyboard at home. So it is not really immersive for me, that helps a lot I guess.

Yes, try 4Chan lol. Toxic on a whole other level. 

[Robberinthemuseum]

I don't know. But there are plenty of manipulative and emotionally abusive people on here. I'm incredibly lucky to have great friends now. I think the biggest issue in SL, is when someone has a certain communication style or pattern they want to enact in sl and treat other residents like npcs. They feel entitled to force that person to experience sl the way they want them to and connect with them in a particular way. The disappointment when they can't manipulate or bully the person they want, sends them into a rage. How dare I not want to talk on the phone for hours. How dare I have a real life separate from secondlife etc. I recently had someone (who everyone thinks is the absolute sh!t) badmouth me to everyone who would listen. They created little scenarios where I was some kind of force for evil, traumatizing their partner. This person, while trying to isolate me from my friends, at the same time sent me private messages telling me how much they loved me and sent me romantic songs from YouTube. It was a massive headf*ck and effected my mental health. One day, with encouragement from a good friend, I just blocked them. It was that easy. They continued with the harassment by proxy for a while but that eventually ended too, I think. I never needed to report them and they still have a load of people who rally around them on every sl platform because they pretty much live online. I don't have time to be online like that. I'm grateful for all the tools secondlife gives us to avoid these disturbed souls. My mistake was assuming people would interact and have the same level of social skills as rl. They don't.

Edited December 30, 2023 by Robberinthemuseum

[Chip Craig]

My experience of SL and MMORPGs is that you will find a toxic culture if you go looking for one.

Certain activities in MMORPGs are more toxic than others (high end content and people obsessed with meta builds). Certain areas and activities in SL are more prone to toxic people and griefers.

If you give these people what they want (attention) then you will become their new plaything. A lot simpler to ignore them.

[Nalates Urriah]

I don't see SL as toxic. Nor, actually, any online game. Monopoly, as a simple example, is not a toxic game but I've seen people get angry and venomous arguing while playing. So, should Monopoly be considered more or less toxic because of that?

The world is how we perceive it... in New Age jargon it is a reflection of our self. A story of a gatekeeper from 3000 years ago illustrates the idea. It was the gatekeeper's duty to decide who could come into the city. Numerous people came to the gate wanting to enter. He would ask then 'why'? In some form or another, they would describe how bad the city was and the people they were leaving. He would tell them things were pretty much the same in his city and tell them to move on, refusing them entry.

Then there were those who answered with positive reasons. Like one young man said he liked the city he was from and the people were great. But his family had grown and they needed to expand their business. So, he was sent out looking for a good city with friendly people to move to. The gatekeeper told him this city was pretty much the same and granted him entry.

In all cases, the gatekeeper's city did not change.

I do not consider SL or the SL Forum to be toxic. There ARE some toxic people in SL and the forum. Personally, I've met very few... actually I am not sure I can remember meeting any. I've met disagreeable, argumentative, poorly educated, poorly informed, apathetic, clingy, horny, delusional... and some really ANNOYING people. But toxic... 

 

[Persephone Emerald]

There was a line in HBO's "The Last of Us", "Be careful of who you trust. It's only the people you trust who can betray you."

I seldom let people have the ability to hurt me in SL. The most toxic person I dealt with in SL, was s guy who wanted to "help" the Happy Hippo building group by buying the region they were on and helping them expand their sim.

Plenty of giving, creative people flocked to help him develop the sim. Then he had a falling out with the managers of Happy Hippo & ejected them. Now he had the region completely under his control. He had the location that previously belonged to Happy Hippo and a big portion of their group members. He had help from me to develop and manage shops that helped pay for the sim. He had talented, creative people who made the region gorgeous and fun. Then he heard somewhere that terraforming with high mountains and deep valleys creates lag, so he destroyed a terraforming project from one of his biggest supporters.

Meanwhile, he'd been getting his supporters to give and "loan" him money to pay for the region. I gave him money because I believed his story about how he was about to come into a bunch of money soon, so he could pay me back. He saw himself as my boyfriend, even though we were not partnered, and became jealous of me talking to my male friends. He became very controlling of my behavior on his sim & forced me to publically apologize for saying something to someone that he didn't agree with. Then he also started hanging out with another woman in her private skybox on the sim. I think he was fooling around with her and getting her to give him money too.

He eventually destroyed the sim by alienating his supporters and destroying their creative projects. When I thought he wouldn't pay me back the money I'd loaned him on his own, I resorted to dropping Easter eggs on the sim with little prizes inside and named things like "snake", "weasel", etc. as a veiled warning to him that I could hurt his reputation with his group. He paid me back my money, but others weren't so lucky. Then I picked up all my prims, including all the shop buildings, left his group and blocked him. 

He was a manipulative, controlling, toxic person who used SL for his own narcissistic reasons. SL wasn't to blame for giving him a place or an audience to play out this drama. It was just a convenient medium, and because others believed he was altruistic and trustworthy, we fed into his fantasy and power games. He would've been toxic anywhere, however.

[Love Zhaoying]

1 hour ago, Nalates Urriah said:

disagreeable, argumentative, poorly educated, poorly informed, apathetic, clingy, horny, delusional... and some really ANNOYING people

Ok, I took the test..

7 out of 9 ain't bad!

..wait, it's not a contest to see how many boxes you can check for yourself?

 

[Rolig Loon]

Contrary to popular opinion, there isn't a weasel in every woodpile.  If you find one in your woodpile, it's not the woodpile's fault; it's the weasel's. (Or maybe you should stop tossing your garbage there.)

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, Rolig Loon said:

there isn't a weasel in every woodpile

Awesome metaphor!

[MissSweetViolet]

As someone who was a heavy online gamer up until a few years ago, SL is no where near as toxic as other games. I have seen so much stuff in that time, that even with what does occur in SL [because although not is as toxic, SL is by no means toxic free] it was a breath of fresh air. Some of the tamer things I've witnessed, just to name a few that I could actually post here include; One guildmate being told by a former guildmate he hoped her kidney deses killed her, a person being harassed and shot at to the point they were lagging out and couldn't move [in that particular game that was a frequent almost hourly occurrence in many areas. A minor being solicited by a 21 year old, a kid being bullied because he listed himself as gay in his profile, and I myself have be called a ho, fat, and things I can't mention on here, and while just standing in a space trying to play. So no, SL is not as toxic, though some communities can be more toxic then others.

In fact I wouldn't be suppressed if that was were my constant need to stand up to people getting picked on comes from. I watched so much, that I finely just said enough is enough, and started standing up to it.

Edited December 31, 2023 by MissSweetViolet
Spelling corrections

[Nalates Urriah]

17 hours ago, Persephone Emerald said:

There was a line in HBO's "The Last of Us", "Be careful of who you trust. It's only the people you trust who can betray you."

I seldom let people have the ability to hurt me in SL. The most toxic person I dealt with in SL, was s guy who wanted to "help" the Happy Hippo building group by buying the region they were on and helping them expand their sim.

Plenty of giving, creative people flocked to help him develop the sim. Then he had a falling out with the managers of Happy Hippo & ejected them. Now he had the region completely under his control. He had the location that previously belonged to Happy Hippo and a big portion of their group members. He had help from me to develop and manage shops that helped pay for the sim. He had talented, creative people who made the region gorgeous and fun. Then he heard somewhere that terraforming with high mountains and deep valleys creates lag, so he destroyed a terraforming project from one of his biggest supporters.

Meanwhile, he'd been getting his supporters to give and "loan" him money to pay for the region. I gave him money because I believed his story about how he was about to come into a bunch of money soon, so he could pay me back. He saw himself as my boyfriend, even though we were not partnered, and became jealous of me talking to my male friends. He became very controlling of my behavior on his sim & forced me to publically apologize for saying something to someone that he didn't agree with. Then he also started hanging out with another woman in her private skybox on the sim. I think he was fooling around with her and getting her to give him money too.

He eventually destroyed the sim by alienating his supporters and destroying their creative projects. When I thought he wouldn't pay me back the money I'd loaned him on his own, I resorted to dropping Easter eggs on the sim with little prizes inside and named things like "snake", "weasel", etc. as a veiled warning to him that I could hurt his reputation with his group. He paid me back my money, but others weren't so lucky. Then I picked up all my prims, including all the shop buildings, left his group and blocked him. 

He was a manipulative, controlling, toxic person who used SL for his own narcissistic reasons. SL wasn't to blame for giving him a place or an audience to play out this drama. It was just a convenient medium, and because others believed he was altruistic and trustworthy, we fed into his fantasy and power games. He would've been toxic anywhere, however.

Typical narcissistic sociopath in action... probably a politician in real life.

I am glad you survived.

I think the part that qualifies as 'toxic' is the destructive results of his actions and influence. Sadly, in this example, the toxicity is subtle and takes time to become apparent. I think the OP is complaining about the more immediately toxic personalities. Those we see and feel in current interactions. Not those taking time to develop to detectable levels. Both types are a problem.

Google, now ABC - the umberla, wrote about Positionous People - I suppose toxic didn't work for their alliteration. In their many projects, they encountered volunteers who were derailing the projects. The article provided explanations for ways to detect and remove Persephone's type of toxic sociopath before the damage is too destructive.

[KanryDrago]

There is also point of view, personally the most toxic person I know in sl I have met in forums only. I never read their posts anymore. They however regard themselves as one of the non toxic nice people. Ironically they have even posted in this thread about the toxicity of others

[AmeliaJ08]

I wouldn't say so, no.

I know there is that kind of thing in SL but it seems very easy to avoid it, for the most part outside of a few busy 'social' sims people just leave each other alone.

It's a big grid though, the scene differs vastly depending on where you are. If you hang out in social spots particularly voice enabled social spots you'll probably encounter some of that silliness.

 

[Luna Bliss]

I think the most toxic thing a person can do is to make another an enemy. Oddly, some people seem to need to have enemies to feel okay. I do see this in SL at times, but more so in other games where competing and fighting against others is frequently the goal and spreads beyond the roleplaying aspects.

There are people that annoy me in SL due to not liking some of their characteristics, and people I've needed to delete from my friends list,  but I don't have enemies -- there are simply parts/facets of others I don't wish to be around and so avoid them but I don't dislike the entire person. I have no desire to 'take them down' or 'win' if I dislike certain aspects in their personality, unlike some who want those not like them or those they've felt hurt by to actually vanish from the face of the earth.

Edited December 31, 2023 by Luna Bliss