Is Second Life more toxic than other games in general?

[Arielle Popstar]

1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

Congrats~!    I've known many who were helped by AA.  This is an interesting read on the 12-steps, tracing its origins to Gnosticism, a philosophy I very much like:

https://www.veronicavalli.com/blog/2020/1/12/the-misinformation-about-alcoholics-anonymous-and-sobriety-1

Interesting article and though I might have a quibble here or there on her perspectives, her viewpoint overall shows she knows what she is talking about from experience, not because an attempt to intellectualize how spirituality works. 

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However part of the 12-steps awareness one seeks would be to not assume one knows what another has gone through and blame them for the situation...most especially when all the details are not known.

I cringe at the constant word "blame" you like bandying about. It is not about blaming a victim but about them taking stock of what they themselves might have done that partly led to an incident. Doesn't mean they did but at least to help with it not happening in future seeing if there is something that might have made them more vulnerable. Much like that to prevent a reoccurrence of getting hit by a car while crossing the street, I might consider that in future I should look both ways  and not rely on drivers being watchful and wary of crossing pedestrians.

1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

Arielle started the derailment though by claiming Prok's estimation of what is toxic in SL is not valid, and she based this evaluation on how she interprets what the 12-steps proposes.

Unfortunately, our personal beliefs will influence whether we think SL is toxic.  They should not used to devalue another person however, assuming we know their motives and the details of their experience.

I did not say Prok's problems were not valid but only made a suggestion that when one is suffering from the toxicity of others in can be worthwhile to look at oneself also to see if there is a way one could do things better so as to not attract that sort of thing. In any human relation, there are at least 2 parties and it is very rare that one or the other is completely at fault. 

[Love Zhaoying]

5 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

I've seen friends exhibit the same patterns of behavior time and again in RL which often leads them to the same outcome, the same.choices in partners.  Until that friend changes their behavior or figures out WHY they keep choosing the same type, they are doomed.  That's not victim blaming, IMO.  They don't DESERVE that type of treatment but they do need to be responsible for their choices. 

IKR? It took me years to stop dating super hot guys carrying around firehoses.

[Arielle Popstar]

14 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

I've seen friends exhibit the same patterns of behavior time and again in RL which often leads them to the same outcome, the same.choices in partners.  Until that friend changes their behavior or figures out WHY they keep choosing the same type, they are doomed.  That's not victim blaming, IMO.  They don't DESERVE that type of treatment but they do need to be responsible for their choices. 

So much this! 

Barbara DeAngelis in one of her dating books suggested an exercise where I was to list the some negative characteristics of my predominant relationships and after doing so, see what characteristic was common for all. It was her belief that we mostly pick a partner based on that negative trait even though it is often hidden and we pick up on it unconsciously. After some more inside work I started being able to pick up on those from across the room and realize this was the type that was both attractive to me and not healthy for a good long term relationship. I learned to walk the other way.

[Luna Bliss]

56 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

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No, no, no. No woman deserves to be beaten by her partner, end of story. You don't say "was it your short skirt?" or "was it your pushy attitude?" Because beating is wrong. She doesn't "bring it on herself" -- the abusive man is wrong, full stop.

Well to be honest when one wishes to dress for "success" whether in business or relationships, then one will use that sort of fashion to attract the sort of person desired. So if I want a strong, assertive partner then the short miniskirt along with the leather vest, unbuttoned to show lots of cleavage and no bra will doubtlessly lead me to find a kind, caring, sensitive soul at the local biker bar ready to hook up for a match made in heaven. What could go wrong?

Apples to oranges here.

We shouldn't be comparing how a woman dresses for a date vs a job, with a woman who is sexually/physically assaulted.

[Luna Bliss]

25 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

2 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

Congrats~!    I've known many who were helped by AA.  This is an interesting read on the 12-steps, tracing its origins to Gnosticism, a philosophy I very much like:

https://www.veronicavalli.com/blog/2020/1/12/the-misinformation-about-alcoholics-anonymous-and-sobriety-1

Interesting article and though I might have a quibble here or there on her perspectives, her viewpoint overall shows she knows what she is talking about from experience, not because an attempt to intellectualize how spirituality works. 

yes, great article, clarifying so much about AA.

Also, I loved how she explained how wonderful Christianity was (Gnosticism) before the patriarchy took over and shoved those teachings out.

[Luna Bliss]

1 hour ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Quote

However part of the 12-steps awareness one seeks would be to not assume one knows what another has gone through and blame them for the situation...most especially when all the details are not known.

I cringe at the constant word "blame" you like bandying about. It is not about blaming a victim but about them taking stock of what they themselves might have done that partly led to an incident. Doesn't mean they did but at least to help with it not happening in future seeing if there is something that might have made them more vulnerable. Much like that to prevent a reoccurrence of getting hit by a car while crossing the street, I might consider that in future I should look both ways  and not rely on drivers being watchful and wary of crossing pedestrians.

I agree...we all need to know what part we might have played in most conflicts so as to prevent its occurrence in the future if possible.

But we need to take care in the way we point out their responsibility in a conflict so the person doesn't feel shamed and so resistant that they really can't hear what could be helpful information.  We especially need to examine our motive for bringing this awareness to another -- to help them?  to have 'one up' over them?  to belittle them because we've felt offended by something they said to us in the past or simply don't like their personality?

There's a process that needs to be followed.  Unfortunately a forum is not so conducive to this.

Edited January 1 by Luna Bliss

[Luna Bliss]

1 hour ago, Arielle Popstar said:

I did not say Prok's problems were not valid but only made a suggestion that when one is suffering from the toxicity of others in can be worthwhile to look at oneself also to see if there is a way one could do things better so as to not attract that sort of thing. In any human relation, there are at least 2 parties and it is very rare that one or the other is completely at fault. 

Oh for sure -- conflict is a two-way street -- for more typical types of conflict.  But when we're talking about abusive people in SL whose sole purpose is to annoy others to the point of phoning your RL home and scaring your kids (griefers), or horrific abuse in RL (assault) then we need to go by a different standard when evaluating it.

Again, apples to oranges in your analysis.

Edited January 1 by Luna Bliss

[kali Wylder]

Short answer - no I don't think SL is more toxic than other internet societies. It's had some toxic hot spots over the years, including here in the forums.  But it's pretty easy to walk away from the toxic and the nice thing about SL, if one venue gets to be unpleasant, you can easily relocate.

[Luna Bliss]

17 minutes ago, kali Wylder said:

But it's pretty easy to walk away from the toxic and the nice thing about SL, if one venue gets to be unpleasant, you can easily relocate.

So true....and so many venues to choose from...I discover more every day...

[Arielle Popstar]

3 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

Oh for sure -- conflict is a two-way street -- for more typical types of conflict.  But when we're talking about abusive people in SL whose sole purpose is to annoy others to the point of phoning your RL home and scaring your kids (griefers), or horrific abuse in RL (assault) then we need to go by a different standard when evaluating it.

Again, apples to oranges in your analysis.

What standard are you suggesting? 

To me it seems just the same but a greater degree so that it might be suggested to pray for the perpetrator's well being for two weeks rather then one, which is usually enough to resolve the emotional impact the offended party is suffering from.

[Luna Bliss]

1 hour ago, Arielle Popstar said:

5 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

Oh for sure -- conflict is a two-way street -- for more typical types of conflict.  But when we're talking about abusive people in SL whose sole purpose is to annoy others to the point of phoning your RL home and scaring your kids (griefers), or horrific abuse in RL (assault) then we need to go by a different standard when evaluating it.

Again, apples to oranges in your analysis.

What standard are you suggesting? 

To me it seems just the same but a greater degree so that it might be suggested to pray for the perpetrator's well being for two weeks rather then one, which is usually enough to resolve the emotional impact the offended party is suffering from.

When someone describes undergoing serious abuse a flippant, insensitive remark pointing to how the aggrieved person brought this abuse on themselves is uncalled for.  This is the standard I'm referring to -- how we respond to others in an optimal manner.
We're done here -- not discussing this with you any further.

[Love Zhaoying]

4 hours ago, kali Wylder said:

Short answer - no I don't think SL is more toxic than other internet societies.

This seems to be the consensus, but the thread gave people a reason to complain and argue anyway.

[Arielle Popstar]

27 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

When someone describes undergoing serious abuse a flippant, insensitive remark pointing to how the aggrieved person brought this abuse on themselves is uncalled for.  This is the standard I'm referring to -- how we respond to others in an optimal manner.
We're done here -- not discussing this with you any further.

Good that we are done. My response was neither flippant nor insensitive but a time honored response to the various traumas people experience. That may conflict with the current "pop psychologies" but it works nonetheless.

[Prokofy Neva]

I think many readers have been able to answer for themselves here the question "Is SL more toxic than other games?" and as a bonus, can now answer the question, "Is the SL forums more toxic than other game forums?"

[PheebyKatz]

Iunno about other games or forums anymore, because SL is pretty much it for me anymore. And I think I've been inworld about 3 whole times in the last two months.

As for toxicity, well, I think a certain amount of it is unavoidable, no matter what. Can't control other people's moods or modes, after all.

As for enthisiasm and passion, I have basically 0% for anything anymore anyway, so I'm probably a poor judge of that.

[Silent Mistwalker]

1 hour ago, PheebyKatz said:

Iunno about other games or forums anymore, because SL is pretty much it for me anymore. And I think I've been inworld about 3 whole times in the last two months.

As for toxicity, well, I think a certain amount of it is unavoidable, no matter what. Can't control other people's moods or modes, after all.

As for enthisiasm and passion, I have basically 0% for anything anymore anyway, so I'm probably a poor judge of that.

That's pretty much where things stand for me for the past 2 or 3 years. Sucks but it is what it is... so, I read. A lot.

[Harper Held]

It really is forums versus inworld, and to be honest no, SL is pretty tame compared to many other online problems. Of course, it is still the internet so you have doxxing, stalking, etc but thankfully that's died down since 2014, 2015 or so.

I think as forums as social phenomenon have dwindled down, so has the toxicity. Most of the venom has gone over to Twitler and Feacesbook and tiktok etc etc.

[Robberinthemuseum]

7 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

I think many readers have been able to answer for themselves here the question "Is SL more toxic than other games?" and as a bonus, can now answer the question, "Is the SL forums more toxic than other game forums?"

I wasn't going to say, but since you pointed it out. Yes, you are correct lol.

 

1 hour ago, Harper Held said:

It really is forums versus inworld, and to be honest no, SL is pretty tame compared to many other online problems. Of course, it is still the internet so you have doxxing, stalking, etc but thankfully that's died down since 2014, 2015 or so.

I think as forums as social phenomenon have dwindled down, so has the toxicity. Most of the venom has gone over to Twitler and Feacesbook and tiktok etc etc.

Don't forget reddit and 4Chan. The doxxing on 4Chan is brutal. 

[Arielle Popstar]

10 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

I think many readers have been able to answer for themselves here the question "Is SL more toxic than other games?" and as a bonus, can now answer the question, "Is the SL forums more toxic than other game forums?"

Not really as part of what is being seen is the Blue Dot Effect, (Prevalence-induced concept change) a scientifically proven phenomena that points out when toxicity decreases, the definition of it is expanded so moral outrage can be kept to a fevered pitch. 

Quote

Do we think that a problem persists even when it has become less frequent? Levari et al. show experimentally that when the “signal” a person is searching for becomes rare, the person naturally responds by broadening his or her definition of the signal—and therefore continues to find it even when it is not there.

It has far reaching implications that are being played out in the forum, inworld and the world at large and needs to be considered when making a judgement call as to whether toxicity is actually getting better or worse.

 

[Luna Bliss]

1 hour ago, Arielle Popstar said:

a scientifically proven phenomena that points out when toxicity decreases, the definition of it is expanded so moral outrage can be kept to a fevered pitch. 

Yes, and when toxicity appears to decrease due to restriction of aggressive impulses on a forum (via strict forum rules), those prone to baiting and receiving their kicks via causing harm to others tend to do so in an underhanded way. I believe I saw a study on this phenomenon.

[Arielle Popstar]

8 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Yes, and when toxicity appears to decrease due to restriction of aggressive impulses on a forum (via strict forum rules), those prone to baiting and receiving their kicks via causing harm to others tend to do so in an underhanded way. I believe I saw a study on this phenomenon.

Hopefully the study included aspects of how some bait and get their kicks from being sensitive for others as that is another toxic passive aggressive method of causing harm. They have a 12 Step program for that even!

[Luna Bliss]

7 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

sensitive for others as that is another toxic passive aggressive method of causing harm. They have a 12 Step program for that even!

Matthew 25:40-45

^"......Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me".

 

* I believe that if everyone maintained this perspective then the forum, and even the world at large, would be a much better place.   Empathy.

Edited January 2 by Luna Bliss

[Arielle Popstar]

35 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Matthew 25:40-45

^"......Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me".

 

* I believe that if everyone maintained this perspective then the forum, and even the world at large, would be a much better place.   Empathy.

Matthew 23:15 points out:

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.

Not all Empathy is a good sort as explained here

 

[Quartz Mole]

Please try to keep the discussion focussed on SL-related topics, and don't let it wander off into a more general discussion of empathy and toxicity in general.  

[Istelathis]

I think it was @animats that had made this observation, which I now am more or less paraphrasing.  Second Life does not have the reach that most games do, as there is not global chat channels, the reach here does not extend very far so most people are living in their own little bubble (which for some reason is considered bad by many) doing their own thing.  In addition to this, we are not required to group with one another to achieve common goals such as taken down a group dungeon, or raid.

With that said, being a DJ will have a much further reach than a lot of other activities in SL, and it is my belief that the more people you know the higher chance you will find yourself among others that do have behaviors that are not agreeable with your own sense of ethics.  

So, basically, I would say it is less toxic than many games, simply because there is less reach.