PBR WOW!

[Arielle Popstar]

8 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

The Mobile dev program is an awful lot of time, effort, and expense to go to for some teens who lied about their age, get bored with the platform in 5 mins, and don't have any money to spend while they are here.

So the "industry" can't do it yet, confirming what EVERYONE has told you about phones not having enough grunt for the job, and odds are it will be some years before that changes, and if they stay true to form, LL will get around to copying the "industry" about 10 years later.

Good news! You can have an IMVSpew look-a-like PBR viewer on your phone sometime around SL30B to SL35B.

Don't hold your breath while you wait!

You missed the bolded part of my post that said: so many developers have started adding it in their releases.

I don't disagree with you that PBR is unnecessary here but the mobile viewer is a must if SL has a hope of bolstering its dwindling market. I've played on the Lumiya viewer over the years when I needed to and found that though it changed how I played, it allowed me access at times when i could not have been inworld with a desk or laptop. All I needed was a set of stronger reading glasses from the dollar store. In the Lumiya group itself there were quite a few in the same position or worse who had no access at all other then mobile. 

As to the rest of broke mobile users, show me the stats or you're just wrong.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

5 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

79% of all gamers play on their phones

Yeah yeah, but play what? most Mobile games are dated looking sideways scrollers, or civilisation ripoff ISO view settlement games, that look like they were made in the 90's..

You won't see high end games with fancy graphics, and multi GB installs, no Total War, no Call of Duty, no GTA 6, or RDR 2, no Skyrim.

 

Fun fact, there are more kids in the world playing kick-about with a cheap plastic ball, than adults who partake in Unlimited WWII plane racing, in sportified WWII vintage fighter planes.

 

So what?

Kids spending a whole 5-10 mins at a time playing some mobile remake of a 30 year old side scroller means NOTHING to SL.

 

You are doing your usual "Compare Oranges to Orangutangs" thing again.

[LipstickAndDreams]

5 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

You missed the bolded part of my post that said: so many developers have started adding it in their releases.

I don't disagree with you that PBR is unnecessary here but the mobile viewer is a must if SL has a hope of bolstering its dwindling market. I've played on the Lumiya viewer over the years when I needed to and found that though it changed how I played, it allowed me access at times when i could not have been inworld with a desk or laptop. All I needed was a set of stronger reading glasses from the dollar store. In the Lumiya group itself there were quite a few in the same position or worse who had no access at all other then mobile. 

As to the rest of broke mobile users, show me the stats or you're just wrong.

Even if the mobile viewer ends up working and people end up using it, LL made the colossal mistake of using the Unity engine to make it.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

2 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

As to the rest of broke mobile users, show me the stats or you're just wrong.

Maybe the laws are different where you live, here minors are not allowed to have credit cards as a rule, and bank accounts for minors are rare.

So how do they spend money online? Mummy or Daddy leave their cards lying about where junior can steal them, or they pay for junior, but vet carefully what junior is spending on.

 

And you keep going on about lumiya users, Mobile wont convince existing SL users to spend dramatically more, that's not "bringing in new users".

The "new users" you keep saying we'll get are the ones who are NOT allowed by the banks to have credit cards etc.

The "new users" you keep saying we'll get are the ones who plainly have NO interest in SL, judging from the kind of games the mobile industry says they play.

[LipstickAndDreams]

13 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

So how do they spend money online? Mummy or Daddy leave their cards lying about where junior can steal them, or they pay for junior, but vet carefully what junior is spending on.

Well that is a horrifying possibility that I didn't even think about. In practice, parents are often stupid about this sort of thing. I have seen horrors you would not believe.

[Arielle Popstar]

4 minutes ago, LipstickAndDreams said:

Even if the mobile viewer ends up working and people end up using it, LL made the colossal mistake of using the Unity engine to make it.

I don't know about that but I would have been happy if they had simply not gone out of their way with breaking Lumiya with protocol changes that doesn't seem to have done any good in the long term anyway. Opensimulator had no trouble adopting both allowing Lumiya to keep working. Even if the Lab had simply made a Lumiya style viewer it would have been good as they could have had it up and running ages ago with a lot less invested but they did want something cross platform so I guess that was behind their thinking.

8 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Maybe the laws are different where you live, here minors are not allowed to have credit cards as a rule, and bank accounts for minors are rare.

So how do they spend money online? Mummy or Daddy leave their cards lying about where junior can steal them, or they pay for junior, but vet carefully what junior is spending on.

 

And you keep going on about lumiya users, Mobile wont convince existing SL users to spend dramatically more, that's not "bringing in new users".

The "new users" you keep saying we'll get are the ones who are NOT allowed by the banks to have credit cards etc.

The "new users" you keep saying we'll get are the ones who plainly have NO interest in SL, judging from the kind of games the mobile industry says they play.

Minors are often given their parents CC just to keep them out of their hair, never mind gift cards and such. Seems to work for IMVU residents. Maybe you and the Lab could take a page out of their book on how to squeeze money out of young people because you don't seem to have much idea yourself

Besides, what are you basing the idea on that it would only be kids interested? My 87 year old mother has a smart phone and I don't know any of her friends or acquaintances who don't either. Smart phones for most of us are a necessity, not a luxury. Only seems like it is people on the SL forums who do not or cannot use them. If and when the Lab releases the Mobile viewer, I have a number of people I would suggest for them to try it out who are not currently in SL because they haven't the high end sort of machine needed to come here.

[LipstickAndDreams]

3 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

I don't know about that

Unless LL keeps using an old, eventually unsupported version of Unity, they will have to pay a fee based on how many times the viewer is downloaded: https://unity.com/runtime-fee-estimator

[Arielle Popstar]

2 minutes ago, LipstickAndDreams said:

Unless LL keeps using an old, eventually unsupported version of Unity, they will have to pay a fee based on how many times the viewer is downloaded: https://unity.com/runtime-fee-estimator

What if they release the code opensource to allow other developers the ability to work on it, would it then circumvent the need to pay the fees if distributed by other residents?

[LipstickAndDreams]

1 minute ago, Arielle Popstar said:

What if they release the code opensource to allow other developers the ability to work on it, would it then circumvent the need to pay the fees if distributed by other residents?

Honestly no idea. But it wouldn't matter for mobile users, as the vast majority probably aren't going to download any viewer other than the one listed on the App Store or Play Store.

[LipstickAndDreams]

14 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

What if they release the code opensource to allow other developers the ability to work on it, would it then circumvent the need to pay the fees if distributed by other residents?

There are also other engines like Godot that could be used to make a viewer, but a lot of the rendering stuff would have to be reimplemented.

[Paul Hexem]

On 12/14/2023 at 4:22 AM, Zalificent Corvinus said:

 and LL should find Better People as customers!"

Well.

Considering the current quality is customers like you and I, you may be on to something there. 

[Cinnamon Mistwood]

I haven't used PBR, yet, but this thread turned into whether a mobile option would do anything.

I wonder if all of you who have personal  opinions from your own personal perspective on whether this is not only viable, but a money maker and way to increase numbers of real people onworld or if it's a money sink and waste of time, have done any official market research into what people other than yourselves actually say they want.

I don't know what goes into decision-making at the lab, but I be willing to guess that someone there did look into some market research and the decision to allocate resources to develop new features wasn't decided by someone who just happened to be passing by emptying the garbage cans.

Change and adapt or watch the platform you enjoy die a slow, neglected death due to an inability to take a single chance or change a single thing.

 

[Theresa Tennyson]

24 minutes ago, Cinnamon Mistwood said:

I wonder if all of you who have personal  opinions from your own personal perspective on whether this is not only viable, but a money maker and way to increase numbers of real people onworld or if it's a money sink and waste of time, have done any official market research into what people other than yourselves actually say they want.

Now you're just being silly.

[JUSTUS Palianta]

Its silly because Linden have been ignoring their market for 16 years that i am aware of, lol.

Now your saying somewhere is an 18 year old gamer crying on his pillow at night because SL doesn't have working mirrors.

I think he'd rather be on his phone talking to his SL friends. 

[Lyssa Greymoon]

I only ready the first page or so, I guess I'll go back and catch up. I did update the Linden viewer to check out the PBR Winter Wonderland on a Mac Studio (M1 Max). Pure single digit FPS misery. I could get to the mid-teens at the skating lake with 5 other avatars around if I turned off shadows.

If this is the future of SL on the Mac, don't bother. It's over.

Edited December 15, 2023 by Lyssa Greymoon

[Rowan Amore]

The vast majority of.people I've talked.to.inworld.had no.clue PBR was coming.  Just as a small vocal minority got us EEP, I'm sure that same vocal.minority got us PBR.  Both giving a lot of people a serious hit to.performance initially.  The only people I've talked to who are looking forward to mobile are those who work.during the day and will now be able to log in during work.  YAY!  

This elusive group of gamers?  The ones who haven't bothered with SL as yet?  The ones who GAME?  That's not going to build a viable new user base, IMHO regatdless.of the new shiny PBR.

[LipstickAndDreams]

46 minutes ago, Cinnamon Mistwood said:

I haven't used PBR, yet, but this thread turned into whether a mobile option would do anything.

I wonder if all of you who have personal  opinions from your own personal perspective on whether this is not only viable, but a money maker and way to increase numbers of real people onworld or if it's a money sink and waste of time, have done any official market research into what people other than yourselves actually say they want.

I don't know what goes into decision-making at the lab, but I be willing to guess that someone there did look into some market research and the decision to allocate resources to develop new features wasn't decided by someone who just happened to be passing by emptying the garbage cans.

Change and adapt or watch the platform you enjoy die a slow, neglected death due to an inability to take a single chance or change a single thing.

 

I mean the same whales who spend thousands of dollars on cosmetic items in crappy mobile games (examples of these people available on request) would probably buy a bunch of stuff here if they could use the platform. I was just saying that LL made a bad choice about the toolkit used to make the viewer because of the terrible license attached to Unity.

[Love Zhaoying]

59 minutes ago, Cinnamon Mistwood said:

I haven't used PBR, yet, but this thread turned into whether a mobile option would do anything.

I wonder if all of you who have personal  opinions from your own personal perspective on whether this is not only viable, but a money maker and way to increase numbers of real people onworld or if it's a money sink and waste of time, have done any official market research into what people other than yourselves actually say they want.

I don't know what goes into decision-making at the lab, but I be willing to guess that someone there did look into some market research and the decision to allocate resources to develop new features wasn't decided by someone who just happened to be passing by emptying the garbage cans.

Change and adapt or watch the platform you enjoy die a slow, neglected death due to an inability to take a single chance or change a single thing.

 

I think most people's opinions on Second Life (and many other, if not most things) are uninformed and based mostly on personal bias, preferences, and fears. Not facts or research.

[LipstickAndDreams]

36 minutes ago, Lyssa Greymoon said:

I only ready the first page or so, I guess I'll go back and catch up. I did update the Linden viewer to check out the PBR Winter Wonderland on a Mac Studio (M1 Max). Pure single digit FPS misery. I could get to the mid-teens at the skating lake with 5 other avatars around if I turned off shadows.

If this is the future of SL on the Mac, don't bother. It's over.

Yeah, its bad. Throttlebook users are going to be even worse off, given that they have no CPU cooling.

Once Firestorm retires its last non-PBR version, I am going to make a fork of it that removes the client-side version checking so that people can still use a non-PBR viewer. I may do this for other viewers if they remain stable enough, or if there is enough demand.

[Chic Aeon]

BACK TO PBR

 

Just wanted folks to remember when both MESH (like a dozen years ago now) and EEP came onto the scene. It was NOT PRETTY.  Give the devs some time. Someone posted that FS was waiting for PBR to be less hassle free before releasing their PBR viewer.  I have no idea where that info came from but even it is is false it  will be quite awhile (like a year? ) before FS folks are required to switch to the PBR version and then "possibly" they could choose to use the OS viewer as an option.

 

Anyway --- When I went over to SANSAR in the second wave of content creators it was so unoptimized you could not imagine. One experience took me a half and hour to load on a fairly good machine with a fairly good connection.  There were only a couple of us that were making places that you could enter quickly.  In less than a year the devs had things working so that those unbelievably slow loading sites were on par with the ones that matched our always fast to load areas.   

 

So what is NOW has been proven a few times at least that it is NOT the future. 

[Istelathis]

34 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I think most people's opinions on Second Life (and many other, if not most things) are uninformed and based mostly on personal bias, preferences, and fears. Not facts or research.

I just needs my dopamine hit from the forums. 

/me wipes forum pixels from nose

*runs off to the casino*

[Love Zhaoying]

4 minutes ago, Istelathis said:

I just needs my dopamine hit from the forums. 

/me wipes forum pixels from nose

*runs off to the casino*

"Snow"

[Lyssa Greymoon]

14 minutes ago, LipstickAndDreams said:

Yeah, its bad. Throttlebook users are going to be even worse off, given that they have no CPU cooling.

Well, when I got home I decided to see what it's like on my OG M1 MacBook Pro, and it's just fine. I guess I need to find out what the hell is wrong with that Mac Studio. 

[LipstickAndDreams]

20 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

BACK TO PBR

 

Just wanted folks to remember when both MESH (like a dozen years ago now) and EEP came onto the scene. It was NOT PRETTY.  Give the devs some time. Someone posted that FS was waiting for PBR to be less hassle free before releasing their PBR viewer.  I have no idea where that info came from but even it is is false it  will be quite awhile (like a year? ) before FS folks are required to switch to the PBR version and then "possibly" they could choose to use the OS viewer as an option.

 

Anyway --- When I went over to SANSAR in the second wave of content creators it was so unoptimized you could not imagine. One experience took me a half and hour to load on a fairly good machine with a fairly good connection.  There were only a couple of us that were making places that you could enter quickly.  In less than a year the devs had things working so that those unbelievably slow loading sites were on par with the ones that matched our always fast to load areas.   

 

So what is NOW has been proven a few times at least that it is NOT the future. 

ALM is still slower than the forward renderer, after all these years. It could have been improved, but it wasn't for whatever reason. I will still do what I said I would do.

[LipstickAndDreams]

32 minutes ago, Lyssa Greymoon said:

Well, when I got home I decided to see what it's like on my OG M1 MacBook Pro, and it's just fine. I guess I need to find out what the hell is wrong with that Mac Studio. 

Do you notice any difference in resolution/blurriness between your macbook and your studio?