PBR WOW!

[Frionil Fang]

1 hour ago, Arduenn Schwartzman said:

Simply showing and hiding faces that have a PBR material set to them is kinda insane.

This is one of my least favorite things about how PBR is implemented. IMO they absolutely should've reused tint and transparency instead of hiding everything behind layers of material asset stuff and overrides. I don't foresee actually using PBR materials unless absolutely necessary i.e. mostly shiny metal things, the environmental reflections and such already help diff-spec materials look spicier.

My second least favorite thing is renaming the old system "Blinn-Phong", couldn't we just have called it diffuse-specular which is already enough technobabble, instead of going for scientifically accurate names?

My third least favorite thing is the flaky performance, sure the PBR viewer pushes 300-400 fps like non-PBR Firestorm, but the instant the camera moves the framerate stutters to ~10 periodically no matter how many times I try to cam around to make sure things are loaded and cached (non-PBR viewer keeps up the framerate without a hitch).

Guess my PBR enthusiasm has kinda waned, "it's fine I guess", could've used a little longer in the oven.

[Tomas McConaught]

Personally, I am absolutely hating what the new color system is doing.  Maybe I am using the wrong viewers, but uggghh!

Water items like the linden water seas have gone from beautiful and calming to sickly, imo, and I have been an ocean or river view type for much of my game.  The overall effect is like the bit-depth of the colors has been reduced.  The water in my fountains now look like cheap movies.

The performance hit to my systems, especially my M3 Macbooks, has been serious.

And I am suddenly having a problem rezzing things, which may be unrelated, but it hits multiple viewers, operating systems, and Avis and persists even after completely removing SL and FS and then reinstalling.

 

[Love Zhaoying]

My "should be flat" outfit now looks shiny under PBR. 

It's a "velvet-like" design so MAYBE I could see it having a "sheen".  But shiny?

😞 

 

Edited December 11, 2023 by Love Zhaoying

[Zalificent Corvinus]

7 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

It's a "velvet-like" design so MAYBE I could see it having a "sheen".  But shiny?

It's probably the coating of drool from all the drooling PBR cultists,  rez a nice fire pit and try to dry your suit out by standing near it while wearing the damp velvet.

 

[Henri Beauchamp]

1 hour ago, Tomas McConaught said:

Water items like the linden water seas have gone from beautiful and calming to sickly, imo, and I have been an ocean or river view type for much of my game.  The overall effect is like the bit-depth of the colors has been reduced.

Try editing app_settings/shaders/pbr/class3/environment/waterF.glsl in the viewer installation directory, and change line 277

color = ((1.0 - f) * color) + fb.rgb;

to read:

// Make water appear less sky-blue: 0.65 and 0.8,0.85,0.75 factors added. HB
color = ((1.0 - f) * color) * 0.65 + fb.rgb;
color.r *= 0.8;
color.g *= 0.85;
color.b *= 0.75;

This looks much better, IMO (I will use this hack in next Cool VL Viewer release), even if faaaaaar from the beautiful water surface Windlight has been providing for years. 😢

Here again, Lindens, get the Cool VL Viewer, stand near a water body, then toggle rendering between PBR and EE/WL with the corresponding check box in the graphics settings, then observe the dramatic render quality degradation in PBR mode, and please, pretty please, fix PBR waters !!!

Edited December 11, 2023 by Henri Beauchamp

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 hour ago, Love Zhaoying said:

My "should be flat" outfit now looks shiny under PBR. 

It's a "velvet-like" design so MAYBE I could see it having a "sheen".  But shiny?

😞 

 

When we switched over to EEP from Windlight, I noticed that a few of my garments became unpleasantly shiny. I'm not sure why, and fortunately it was only a few things, but I imagine there will be a LOT of this kind of thing coming.

If it's mod, you can of course go in and modify the specular layer. Sadly, of course, most clothing is not.

[Flea Yatsenko]

4 hours ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

I wish that would be true, but I suspect reality will be different.

Biggest problems with spec/norm isn't the system, it's people not bothering to RTFM, and assuming the spec map is a "specular strength map" instead of a "specular colour" map, and forgetting that their software is probably exporting DirectX based normal maps, not OpenGL based normal maps.

That was my point though, SL used a different spec map, normal with alpha set to openGL. Whenever you'd use a default export for any software for spec norm, it wouldn't do it right. You had to read the wiki page then set up a custom export preset. Hardly anyone ever did.

I know spec norm and PBR rendering usually isn't compatible. Which means SL probably has to convert the spec norm to PBR somewhere before it's rendered. Which means those incorrect spec norm maps are probably gonna be converted to PBR and they're probably gonna be very wrong. Which is probably why people are complaining about stuff looking drastically different. It was probably never done right in the first place but it worked in SL.

WIth spec norm, even downloading spec norm from texture libraries would give very wrong results. With PBR you can easily download the maps from sites and they'll work the way they're supposed to. Same with exporting from blender or whatever. It is easier to not screw up making content for SL with PBR.

I still think baked and only diffuse texture is still going to be very popular. I think content creators who want to do PBR are gonna have to support baked textures for a long time, especially with scenes and stuff. Even if ALM is removed, no one really used spec norm which means most people are still using baked textures so I don't think much is gonna change unless you have stuff that used spec norm, especially if they used spec norm the wrong way but it still looked fine with ALM.Exporting and importing with GLTF is way better.

Spec norm was doing more damage than good. At least with PBR it's gone.

[Janet Voxel]

48 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

When we switched over to EEP from Windlight, I noticed that a few of my garments became unpleasantly shiny. I'm not sure why, and fortunately it was only a few things, but I imagine there will be a LOT of this kind of thing coming.

If it's mod, you can of course go in and modify the specular layer. Sadly, of course, most clothing is not.

Part of that comes from a multitude of creators who never adjust their specular map currently. By default, it’s set to the specularity of a tub you’d buy in a hardware store. It’s probably one of those cases where you can skip specularity all together.
 

One of my pet peeves is buying jeans that have that kind of shine on them.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

12 minutes ago, Flea Yatsenko said:

That was my point though, SL used a different spec map, normal with alpha set to openGL.

A specular colour map is a specular colour map is a specular colour map, there's no difference "to opengl", other than adding an OPTIONAL alpha channel. RTFM.

 

12 minutes ago, Flea Yatsenko said:

Whenever you'd use a default export for any software for spec norm

That's because your software assumes you are exporting to something like Daz Studio or Poser, or 3DS Max, and want a specular STRENGTH map, not a specular COLOUR map, which is down to you not RTFM for SL Materials. RTFM.

 

12 minutes ago, Flea Yatsenko said:

WIth spec norm, even downloading spec norm from texture libraries would give very wrong results

Because the libraries you were downloading from were assuming specular STRENGTH, and were not made for SL. RTFM again.

 

12 minutes ago, Flea Yatsenko said:

Even if ALM is removed

Pay attention. ALM is NOT being removed, it's being made compulsory. RTFM

 

12 minutes ago, Flea Yatsenko said:

I don't think much is gonna change unless you have stuff that used spec norm, especially if they used spec norm the wrong way but it still looked fine with ALM

It's not "used the wrong way" you just didn't RTFM.

 

12 minutes ago, Flea Yatsenko said:

Spec norm was doing more damage than good

Utter BS statement there. RTFM.

Edited December 11, 2023 by Zalificent Corvinus

[Zalificent Corvinus]

13 minutes ago, Janet Voxel said:

Part of that comes from a multitude of creators who never adjust their specular map currently. By default, it’s set to the specularity of a tub you’d buy in a hardware store. It’s probably one of those cases where you can skip specularity all together.

Polythene 120 gallon wheelie bin that's been left outside for a few years.

 

That LL Default  51/0 is, like just about every LL Default, a pathetic failure.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

When i saw the robot video, my first thought was, hey is that Mr Crabs from Bikini Bottom in a robot costume?

[Flea Yatsenko]

There's no need for that. I am telling you what other people do and why there's so many problems with spec norm and why no one uses it.

PBR is a different rendering engine. We are not being forced to ALM. ALM is getting replaced with the PBR renderer. Forward rendering, I.E. the old way with ALM disabled is also getting removed from the LL viewer.

*shrugs*

[LipstickAndDreams]

8 hours ago, Candide LeMay said:

*exception for Old Man Henri and his viewer 😉

I've been using it too, and based on my experience with it I will bet my entire L$ balance that his viewer is going to replace Firestorm as the most used TPV in the coming years. Be prepared, Henri. You are going to get a lot of people asking you to change the interface lol

Edited December 11, 2023 by LipstickAndDreams

[steeljane42]

11 minutes ago, LipstickAndDreams said:

I've been using it too, and based on my experience with it I will bet my entire L$ balance that his viewer is going to replace Firestorm as the most used TPV in the coming years. Be prepared, Henri.

It won't. There has been a lot of whining on the forums about EEP when it was released as it was, which LL has implemented in one of the worst ways possible (kinda like with PBR now, too). But it is what it is, a small and vocal minority (myself included).

Same deal about pro-mod everything stuff for example. If you'd only read forums you'd think that "most people in SL ignore those terrible no-mod creators", but it couldn't be further from the truth. So people will either keep using what they use, or just leave SL if it stops working for them.

[kali Wylder]

On 12/8/2023 at 7:11 PM, Luna Bliss said:

Just getting around to seeing this. I'm impressed!  What do you like/not like about PBR so far?

https://screenrec.com/share/IVcrQq08fb

 

I know I'm just an ignorant occasional visitor to SL these days, but, it seems to me that if you want to start a discussion about an acronym, especially since it sounds like a new feature, perhaps it would be helpful to mention what it stands for in the opening post.  

I had no idea there were now professional bull riders in SL.

[Luna Bliss]

33 minutes ago, kali Wylder said:

On 12/8/2023 at 6:11 PM, Luna Bliss said:

Just getting around to seeing this. I'm impressed!  What do you like/not like about PBR so far?

https://screenrec.com/share/IVcrQq08fb

 

I know I'm just an ignorant occasional visitor to SL these days, but, it seems to me that if you want to start a discussion about an acronym, especially since it sounds like a new feature, perhaps it would be helpful to mention what it stands for in the opening post.  

I had no idea there were now professional bull riders in SL.

haha well you know I couldn't even remember the right letters myself at first and almost wrote 'PBS' (the television station).

[Luna Bliss]

1 hour ago, steeljane42 said:

Same deal about pro-mod everything stuff for example. If you'd only read forums you'd think that "most people in SL ignore those terrible no-mod creators", but it couldn't be further from the truth.

We forumites are a strange breed. LL should not listen to us.

[LipstickAndDreams]

3 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

We forumites are a strange breed. LL should not listen to us.

Oh I don't care if they listen or not. They will do their thing, I will do mine as long as it is allowed.

[Prokofy Neva]

On 12/9/2023 at 12:05 AM, Michael Blackwood said:

Dunno if it's just me but so far, all I am getting out of PBR is terrible f*ed up lighting every other login in the current public release FS version without being able to enjoy the PBR aspects. So personally, can't say I'm thrilled just yet.Now to be fair, I haven't downloaded LL viewer yet and tested PBR where I can actually see it, to be able to judge PBR itself (topic of the thread here). But frankly, as crappy as light looks now in FS with PBR on sims enabled but FS not, I dont even want PBR anymore lol.

That's exactly what the more glorified graphic settings in the viewer do - the ALM. Instead of *enhancing* the SL experience it *degraded* it by making everything look blurry. So I'm avoiding PBR because I think it will work in exactly the same fashion. I don't see why we are to applaud "breaking old content".

I suppose I will wait until it it forced on us with no other choice like Viewer 1.23 became 2.0 with unusable search, and if my game won't play, why, I won't log on.

It would be some time before I'd buy an entire new computer or graphics card to wrap around the Lindens' latest shiny that I didn't ask for.

 

[Prokofy Neva]

7 hours ago, Flea Yatsenko said:

There's no need for that. I am telling you what other people do and why there's so many problems with spec norm and why no one uses it.

PBR is a different rendering engine. We are not being forced to ALM. ALM is getting replaced with the PBR renderer. Forward rendering, I.E. the old way with ALM disabled is also getting removed from the LL viewer.

*shrugs*

*Shrugs*

The Lindens have never said that in any of their literature or videos on PBR. Ever. They should have. But didn't. 

*Shrugs*

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

6 hours ago, steeljane42 said:

It won't. There has been a lot of whining on the forums about EEP when it was released as it was, which LL has implemented in one of the worst ways possible (kinda like with PBR now, too). But it is what it is, a small and vocal minority (myself included).

Same deal about pro-mod everything stuff for example. If you'd only read forums you'd think that "most people in SL ignore those terrible no-mod creators", but it couldn't be further from the truth. So people will either keep using what they use, or just leave SL if it stops working for them.

I think this is true -- and LL knows it.

A fair-sized majority of residents will remain at best marginally aware that there is something called "PBR" now out on the grid (whatever that means). All they'll really notice is that they are required to install an update to whatever viewer they're using. Some may complain that some items "look broken," or that SL looks "darker" than it used to (OMG, will we see a resurgence of facelights???), but I think very few will actually change their use of the platform much.

I do think, though, that some will notice a degradation of their FPS, as a result of ALM becoming mandatory. (More on that in a second.)

[Scylla Rhiadra]

9 hours ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Pay attention. ALM is NOT being removed, it's being made compulsory. RTFM

I'm a little confused, maybe, because this is my understanding also. But I do keep hearing people say that ALM is no longer "required." I assume that this is because the "new" PBR-approved version of ALM is sufficiently "different" from the old one that they no longer think of them as the "same thing"? If so, then that's a game of semantics at best.

On 12/10/2023 at 10:51 AM, Flea Yatsenko said:

I've got a 6800 in Linux and the PBR viewer runs a lot smoother than the ALM one. I am really confused what people are talking about with performance being poor. The frame rate numbers are similar but the frame time seems a lot smoother. If PBR is running badly you can just turn down reflections and it's way better. Disable them if you need to. I am pretty sure that's the most taxing part of PBR to run.

Well, I haven't tried a PBR viewer yet, so I am not really qualified to respond to this.

What I can tell you is that turning ALM on using my current, pre-PBR viewers, does result in a noticeable although not cataclysmic loss in frame rate for me. And that's on two very different computers: one a high end but quite ancient desktop, and the other a spanking new laptop. (And I do mean just ALM -- I'm not talking about also enabling AO and shadows.) I'd guess on average it shaves 10 FPS off my rate, or thereabouts?

I'll be interested to see if that is reflected also in the PBR viewer.

ETA: I just did a quick check on my new laptop. Turning ALM on effectively halves my FPS, both at ground level on my mainland parcel (from about ~ 46 FPS to ~ 24 FPS) and on my sky platform (from ~ 110 FPS to ~ 55 FPS).

Which, actually, is a pretty major hit.

Edited December 12, 2023 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Prokofy Neva]

18 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I'm a little confused, maybe, because this is my understanding also. But I do keep hearing people say that ALM is no longer "required." I assume that this is because the "new" PBR-approved version of ALM is sufficiently "different" from the old one that they no longer think of them as the "same thing"? If so, then that's a game of semantics at best.

Well, I haven't tried a PBR viewer yet, so I am not really qualified to respond to this.

What I can tell you is that turning ALM on using my current, pre-PBR viewers, does result in a noticeable although not cataclysmic loss in frame rate for me. And that's on two very different computers: one a high end but quite ancient desktop, and the other a spanking new laptop. (And I do mean just ALM -- I'm not talking about also enabling AO and shadows.) I'd guess on average it shaves 10 FPS off my rate, or thereabouts?

I'll be interested to see if that is reflected also in the PBR viewer.

ETA: I just did a quick check on my new laptop. Turning ALM on effectively halves my FPS, both at ground level on my mainland parcel (from about ~ 46 FPS to ~ 24 FPS) and on my sky platform (from ~ 110 FPS to ~ 55 FPS).

Which, actually, is a pretty major hit.

Never, ever EVER click on IMPROVE YOUR GRAPHICS button on SL or you will experience DAYS of impaired performance on your SL because you buy your computer at Best Buy instead of hand-build it with parts from New Egg.

I have found newbies weeping in corners because this fun thing they had yesterday has now ground to a halt and made them feel like a blind mouse. 

[Prokofy Neva]

22 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I'm a little confused, maybe, because this is my understanding also. But I do keep hearing people say that ALM is no longer "required." I assume that this is because the "new" PBR-approved version of ALM is sufficiently "different" from the old one that they no longer think of them as the "same thing"? If so, then that's a game of semantics at best.

Well, I haven't tried a PBR viewer yet, so I am not really qualified to respond to this.

What I can tell you is that turning ALM on using my current, pre-PBR viewers, does result in a noticeable although not cataclysmic loss in frame rate for me. And that's on two very different computers: one a high end but quite ancient desktop, and the other a spanking new laptop. (And I do mean just ALM -- I'm not talking about also enabling AO and shadows.) I'd guess on average it shaves 10 FPS off my rate, or thereabouts?

I'll be interested to see if that is reflected also in the PBR viewer.

ETA: I just did a quick check on my new laptop. Turning ALM on effectively halves my FPS, both at ground level on my mainland parcel (from about ~ 46 FPS to ~ 24 FPS) and on my sky platform (from ~ 110 FPS to ~ 55 FPS).

Which, actually, is a pretty major hit.

I could accept the FPS hit if I was just twirling around on some new fabulous Linden Reveal thing and sayiing "Oooh, shiny! Ooohhhh Love!"

But that's not all.

It also makes everything look blurry and ugly. It does NOT make things look crisp and shiny and fabulous like my Mom's glass coffee table before her bridge game, you know, when they put the little wine glasses with the cigarettes in them, the Malt Balls in shiny candy dishes, and little favours from Woolworth's like a porcelain dog. This was 1959.

Instead, it looks like an acid trip gone wrong. I have put up pictures before, not today, Satan as it would require me crippling my machine and struggling to put it back "like it was".

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by Prokofy Neva

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Just now, Prokofy Neva said:

Never, ever EVER click on IMPROVE YOUR GRAPHICS button on SL or you will experience DAYS of impaired performance on your SL because you buy your computer at Best Buy instead of hand-build it with parts from New Egg.

I have found newbies weeping in corners because this fun thing they had yesterday has now ground to a halt and made them feel like a blind mouse. 

Actually, I have NEVER used this tool.

In part it's because maybe I'm a bit of a control freak, and I want to manage my settings and my view myself, thank you very much (just one reason I'd make a terrible sub), and in part because I want/need a consistent graphics setup for things like pics.

I just don't trust the viewer to "automate" something that I know very well how to manage myself.