I have a question. (rant)

[Qie Niangao]

1 hour ago, Randall Ahren said:

Maybe LL should ban the Marketplace, so the Lab can back to making money from tier. Alternatively, LL could raise the Marketplace commission to 99%. That would incentivize more creators to have in-world stores.

Kind of. I've argued for maybe a decade that Marketplace should be an alternate, web-based catalog and sales flow for in-world items, and nothing else.

Merchants that don't make enough to justify an in-world store or just can't be bothered to do so are not enriching Second Life with their wares on Marketplace. SL is a virtual world not a mere clearinghouse for 3D content.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

3 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

Merchants that don't make enough to justify an in-world store or just can't be bothered to do so are not enriching Second Life with their wares on Marketplace. SL is a virtual world not a mere clearinghouse for 3D content.

So, if I buy a tree for my garden, at an in-world store, it's more "enriching" than the same damn tree for the same damn garden, bought on the MP?

 

 

Edited September 25, 2023 by Quartz Mole

[Stephanie Misfit]

12 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Kind of. I've argued for maybe a decade that Marketplace should be an alternate, web-based catalog and sales flow for in-world items, and nothing else.

Merchants that don't make enough to justify an in-world store or just can't be bothered to do so are not enriching Second Life with their wares on Marketplace. SL is a virtual world not a mere clearinghouse for 3D content.

They are enriching my SL when I buy and use their items.

And like it or not, a lot of customers prefer to shop on the marketplace. I have an in-world store but 60% of my sales come from the marketplace. 

 

[Marianne Little]

I prefer the kind of demos with demo signs around.

Timed demos is a problem because I want to test with other clothes. Can I wear sweaters and jackets with these pants without clipping? How does the dress move when dancing?

It should also be a visible texture, not a grey texture with "demo" all over. The texture is so important. The ad can show the texture as much better than it is. Parts of the texture should be visible so I can see it, many who sell hairs do it this way, and they have floating demo signs too. That is fine.

Even if demo signs can obscure the look of the demo itself, I can move the camera around.

I see a review as a way to express my satisfaction or dissatisfaction with the demo. I do not understand the mindset of those who claim we should only send notecards. Something about unfairness? That the demo made it impossible to decide if I should buy, is not important for a review?

I would not use one star rating, but something in the middle, like 3. And write something like "I could not try the demo properly, because it was a timed demo. So I did not buy".

Edit: Even if I do not write a review, I reply to what I would have done if I were the OP.

Edited September 25, 2023 by Marianne Little

[Marianne Little]

I am not so gullible to believe words on a notecard or in a review can make a seller change their mind.

I can not remember making a review of a timed demo, and a notecard is out of the question for me. They have done nothing to promt me spend time on a notecard. It would have to be a truly extraordinary case.

Make a creator change their mind by a notecard, I view it as easy as making a Liverpool supporter cheer for Man. U.

Edited September 25, 2023 by Marianne Little
typo

[Paul Hexem]

4 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

Kind of. I've argued for maybe a decade that Marketplace should be an alternate, web-based catalog and sales flow for in-world items, and nothing else.

Merchants that don't make enough to justify an in-world store or just can't be bothered to do so are not enriching Second Life with their wares on Marketplace. SL is a virtual world not a mere clearinghouse for 3D content.

You'd be shocked how many people prefer the MP. I always have at least two in world vendor locations, complete with in world discounts, and still make 90% of my sales on the MP. 

[Qie Niangao]

3 hours ago, Stephanie Misfit said:

They are enriching my SL when I buy and use their items.

And like it or not, a lot of customers prefer to shop on the marketplace. I have an in-world store but 60% of my sales come from the marketplace. 

It's not as if I think customers are doing anything wrong by buying on Marketplace. My proposed unified in-world / Marketplace would absolutely provide a "web-based catalog and sales flow."

The problem is that the merchants who have no in-world presence have no skin in the game, and it shows in every conceivable way.

Compare, say, a thousand random Marketplace products that have working "See in Second Life" links with a thousand with outdated or no links at all. Which group provides the better customer support? Which incorporates new technology sooner after introduction? And then, which is more likely to be garbage nobody buys, just cluttering up the search results?

Sure, some interesting old stuff would become unavailable to buy when their creators leave Second Life. Their existing already sold product would persist, and honestly, I think that's fitting. I can't buy a Starax wand but the legend lives on.

[AmeliaJ08]

6 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

You'd be shocked how many people prefer the MP. I always have at least two in world vendor locations, complete with in world discounts, and still make 90% of my sales on the MP. 

A lot of my purchases are quite specific, if I'm looking for something like "black leather jacket maitreya petite" you can bet I'm going on marketplace because while I do know of a few in-world stores that are likely candidates I don't know them all and my brand loyalty is limited... if I search that in MP I get a lot of choices.

I wish there was a way of searching for stuff featured in-world but there isn't. If I'm wanting something fast and are prepared to pay full price then I will pretty much always use MP, only exceptions might be if I know there's a big sale happening in a store or something but that's unlikely since who keeps up to date on stuff like that...

 

 

[Love Zhaoying]

4 hours ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

So, if I buy a tree for my garden, at an in-world store, it's more "enriching" than the same damn tree for the same damn garden, bought on the MP?

Maybe one gets more "fertilzer"?

[Qie Niangao]

Trying to veer myself back on-topic here…

3 hours ago, Marianne Little said:

I am not so gullible to believe words on a notecard or in a review can make a seller change their mind.

Also, if sellers could be convinced by notecards, a discussion on the forums would be a way to rally the troops to send those notecards en masse and keep at it long enough to possibly convince some sellers who'd finally appreciate how much they're annoying many potential customers.

I guess it's fair warning to be reminded that posting to a self-proclaimed "rant" forums thread is not going to change anything, any more than would an occasional notecard. We can still vent here, whether or not a movement of militant, pitchfork wielding notecard writers emerges.

[Arielle Popstar]

22 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

You'd be shocked how many people prefer the MP. I always have at least two in world vendor locations, complete with in world discounts, and still make 90% of my sales on the MP. 

Only because the MP search is somewhat less of a clusterf**k then the inworld one and also keeps a better record of items I have already bought. For the rest my preference is inworld shopping for at least avoiding having to scroll through pages of the same item in infinite colours. It is faster to cam through available items inworld then it is on the MP.

[Love Zhaoying]

Opinions:

I see one or two use-cases for "timed" rigged clothing demos vs. demos with giant "DEMO" placards, overwritten text, etc.

1. Ability to actually see what the item looks like, and take a photo of that, with no "DEMO" sign covering any part.

Yes, I realize a "DEMO" sign could be rigged far above the avatar's head, etc. 

2. By not covering the clothing item, the user can see clearly whether if there are any "rigging issues" with their body, etc.

Of course, the LENGTH of the timed demo period is important.

The examples given where a timer "continues" even after the item is removed and put back on make that approach sound like a "bad idea".

 

[Qie Niangao]

9 hours ago, CherryChantal said:

As a customer I really don‘t like timed-demos but I would never ever write a bad review on mp cause I don‘t know what have led the  merchant to the decision of using timed-demos.

Isn't that denying the merchant valuable feedback? Whatever led them to that decision, if they somehow don't appreciate how fantastically annoying those timed demos can be, wouldn't it be generous to advise them so they can fix it and perhaps improve sales?

(Now that I read that again, I wonder what could lead to this decision. The timed-demo script is cheap and easy for the merchant, but otherwise… 🤷)

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Qie Niangao said:

I wonder what could lead to this decision.

I thought of two reasons: 

1. Using a timed demo allows the user to see the item and/or take example pictures without seeing any "DEMO", etc. texture showing.

2. Using a timed demo allows the creator to make a "demo" version of an item by merely adding the "Demo script", instead of modifying the item in any other way (to add a DEMO texture, floating DEMO prim, etc.).

 

 

[Sid Nagy]

56 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

You'd be shocked how many people prefer the MP. I always have at least two in world vendor locations, complete with in world discounts, and still make 90% of my sales on the MP. 

I stopped with inworld shops years ago. They became mainly money pits.
I agree that there has been a shift from 90+% sales inworld to about 90% on the marketplace over the years.
Combine that with no upfront costs for a merchant on the marketplace vs upfront tier costs for a shop and the choice is easily made.
 

Edited September 25, 2023 by Sid Nagy

[Qie Niangao]

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I thought of two reasons: 

1. Using a timed demo allows the user to see the item and/or take example pictures without seeing any "DEMO", etc. texture showing.

2. Using a timed demo allows the creator to make a "demo" version of an item by merely adding the "Demo script", instead of modifying the item in any other way (to add a DEMO texture, floating DEMO prim, etc.).

Yeah, I was trying to convey #2 by "cheap and easy". And I agree that demo textures can really interfere with assessing the item (and unfortunately, worst of all, skins and other products that are purely texture-based and have no other choice) but for fitted mesh it seems pretty easy to just staple on a fitted DEMO sign and call it a day. That sign only needs to be visible to others, not get in the way of viewing the demo and anything else the customer may want to test together with it.

(Tangent: lately I've encountered a number of demos, timed and not, that include only one of several textures, and not necessarily the one with broadest appeal. I guess that's good enough to check fit, but it makes me wonder how those merchants think demo testers really decide to buy.)

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Qie Niangao said:

Yeah, I was trying to convey #2 by "cheap and easy".

Creators possibly follow the general rule of choosing options: "Do you want it Fast, Cheap, or Good?"

 

[Paul Hexem]

1 hour ago, Sid Nagy said:

I stopped with inworld shops years ago. They became mainly money pits.
I agree that there has been a shift from 90+% sales inworld to about 90% on the marketplace over the years.
Combine that with no upfront costs for a merchant on the marketplace vs upfront tier costs for a shop and the choice is easily made.
 

I keep them as demo locations.

Plus I agree with @Qie Niangao in a way. I've always felt that merchants with an in world store are more invested and more likely to be active. Incidentally, they're probably more likely to react to complaints like this thread.

You're gambling on the MP that they're even still logging in anymore.

[TheVeryFirst]

Okay, not going to leave a review. Not sending a note card, although I have had fantastic success with note cards, some creators will bend over backwards to help if there is a legitimate  problem, I doubt a timed demo would be seen as their problem.

Marketplace or in world store? I shop Marketplace, I wear the Tonic Fine body, only. Shopping in world it takes to much time just to locate what I can wear, if there is any clothing at all for Tonic in the store. With Marketplace I can search “tonic” and get well over 100K hits in apparel, then take my time looking.
For a long time I attempted to follow links on Marketplace to shop in world, after falling out of the sky, rezzing in an empty field, rezzing in someones bedroom, I have all but given up shopping in world, unless I have shopped the store before and know they support Tonic Fine and their clothing fits without clipping. Auto alpha is an automatic no sale! If it needs an alpha, it doesn’t fit, period.

Did not expect my rant to hit a nerve.

[Luna Bliss]

13 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

14 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

I like to go to the stores sometimes, and I see lots of people in them shopping.

Especially these shopping events...wow sometimes I can't even get into them.

Yeah. I avoid the Marketplace as much as possible, and even when out of desperation I manage to convince Marketplace search to return countably many results, the products are uniformly outdated garbage, even when I sort newest-first. And the reviews: worth less than nothing.

The sole exception is when I'm trying to buy the exact thing I've seen somewhere exploring in-world, and even then I rarely buy unless there's a working "See in Second Life" link on the product page. Otherwise they could close Marketplace completely and my SL experience would be improved, especially if the still viable products were in proper, presentable in-world stores.

Events are the best way I know to see how new products are using new SL features as they emerge, and what new visions are coming from new creators. (Just lately, though, many creators appear to be holding back any big new releases, probably while they get them ready for PBR.)

Yes I'm finding amazing items inworld that I never came across on the MP.  Wow I really should have gotten out of the house more!  lol

Do you think this skewing on the MP to outdated and low-quality items popping up first could be deliberate? Like, to give all creators a chance to earn money as so many do need to earn a bit to cover expenses in SL?  Or is the MP just not operating properly?

While I love high-quality items and appreciate the artistry that went into them, I am concerned  about all having a chance to participate in the economy.

I still use the MP a bit, as sometimes that hidden gem comes to the forefront.

[Silent Mistwalker]

7 hours ago, Stephanie Misfit said:

They are enriching my SL when I buy and use their items.

And like it or not, a lot of customers prefer to shop on the marketplace. I have an in-world store but 60% of my sales come from the marketplace. 

 

I use the MP as a catalog mostly and make my purchases at inworld stores. Quite often the price inworld is lower than the MP price. It wasn't until redelivery was available on MP that I bothered with making purchases on the MP much. Really, redelivery is the only reason I ever purchase on the MP.

[Sid Nagy]

30 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

I use the MP as a catalog mostly and make my purchases at inworld stores. Quite often the price inworld is lower than the MP price. It wasn't until redelivery was available on MP that I bothered with making purchases on the MP much. Really, redelivery is the only reason I ever purchase on the MP.

That people want redelivery  these days is one more reason why I only sell on the marketplace.

Yes, there are vendor systems that offer that option too, but as a merchant you have to grant their scripts the permission to access your L$. And that isn't gonna happen in a million years. These scripts are no mod, who knows what the authors coded into them.
So I consider that as a never going to happen option.

 

[Luna Bliss]

1 minute ago, Sid Nagy said:

That people want redelivery  these days is one more reason why I only sell on the marketplace.

Yes, there are vendor systems that offer that option too, but as a merchant you have to grant their scripts the permission to access your L$. And that isn't gonna happen in a million years. These scripts are no mod, who knows what the authors coded into them.
So I consider that as a never going to happen option.

My TV is that way too, if I buy a movie via the TV.

All the main stores have a redelivery terminal in them, and customers expect that now it seems, so I hope it's really not as dangerous as you're suggesting. I have quite a bit of stuff for sale not in vendors, and one customer was appalled that I had no redelivery for them.

[TheVeryFirst]

14 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

That people want redelivery  these days is one more reason why I only sell on the marketplace.

 

 

I don’t know anything about it, maybe someone in the know can comment. But on one store on Marketplace it said, redelivery available for 30 days only. Is it something you can turn on and off, do you need to pay extra for it?

 

[Sid Nagy]

15 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

My TV is that way too, if I buy a movie via the TV.

All the main stores have a redelivery terminal in them, and customers expect that now it seems, so I hope it's really not as dangerous as you're suggesting. I have quite a bit of stuff for sale not in vendors, and one customer was appalled that I had no redelivery for them.

I can't read the scripts, so I can't judge what is and isn't written in there.
From the cable firm one has the details, adress, phone number etc.. From the vendor merchant I have nothing only a SL name and the overlords that don't mingle in customer affairs.
I just will not grand a stranger access to my money.
MP gives the opportunity and so I stick to the MP.