Mainstream failure of SL & Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs

[Gabriele Graves]

Did this topic self-actualise yet?

[Luna Bliss]

1 hour ago, Arielle Popstar said:

yesteryear trying to relive a previous generation when the rest have moved on to a much more materialistic mindset where one's identity is wrapped up in how good one looks rather then how much one helps others become a functional resident in this virtual world.

Speak for yourself and your associates, Missy!  ;0

I run around with non-mesh avatars half the time I'm here (over @ the educational areas), and my girlfriend is even non-mesh!

It's fun to have a mesh body now (well except for the damn blue fingernails I can't get rid of), but I could care less about how someone represents the physical here, in terms of what really matters to me.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

8 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

Not really as the premise is still there and those 'needful' things would indeed make SL more valuable as the investment is there, scarcity, possession, etc. Sure some cant be covered such as food, but then wouldn't that encompass stimulation of the mind in a gaming sense?

Take clothing for instance, most new players have that need or desire from the get go to get better clothes. The making of system layer clothes or tattoos as part of the clothing tutorial in some way meets those needs. As would a tutorial using the shopping region at the welcome area and marketplace to show how to buy, unpack, dress, etc.

The shelter has already been answered by the OP in the form of Linden Homes of which, whilst you cant force a person to buy a Linden Home/Premium, you can for example take them on a tour of the linden homes or even better offer a 14 day free trial of the linden homes ONLY without any other premium perks. This gives them the feel of shelter with the option to continue with it via purchasing premium or the 'plus' subscription for only mainland or look for other shelter options. Of course providing them through maybe a hud that auto attaches after their 14 days are up showing them other options such as how to navigate the land auctions, land sales search etc. This gives them the full tutorial of the whole land ownership covering all aspects and then leaves them with the option of how to proceed.

The safety and security comes as Prokofy mentioned, through ownership of land and a tutorial on how to secure your land if you want. Additionally, security and safety can also be in the form of financial security and safety. This is where they can offer places in the Games section of the tutorial on how to earn money through Linden Realms, Crystal Craze, etc. Or they can offer it as part of the tutorial where someone makes their 'tattoo' or 'object' and through the next tutorial shows them how to sell that item on marketplace.

I think Coffee is correct in that, those bottom things are essential to making SL feel more valuable to someone. Sure I wouldn't have used that specific pyramid 'as is' as it is more driven to RL psychology and needs to be adapted to 'games'. The problem is that people in the thread are taking it as a literal RL interpretation for a game which you cant do. That said, people have merged Maslow's hierarchy and the gamification idea I mentioned together for a gaming perspective.

For example: Connecting Gamification and Motivation Theory | theHRD (thehrdirector.com) . That link shows how the two and how they are relevant to 'players'. It also touches scarcity (along with possessions) which you highlighted earlier and which they place in that bottom section of the Pyramid.

Again, in substance there is not much I can disagree with here -- and some of these are indeed great ideas.

I get the sense that we're arguing to some degree about semantics here, but in some instances definitions are important.

Things like shelter (a trial Linden Home) and clothing (learning how to shop, find freebies, etc.) are literally "needful" in RL, in that your actual survival will depend upon them to some degree.

That's not the case in SL, nor should it be. I have had "homes" of many sorts in SL over the years, but a fair amount of my time I didn't have, or feel I needed, one. And it's entirely possible (although not recommended) to just continue wearing the clothes your new avatar comes supplied with. Heck, some people don't bother with clothes at all! (And some wear clothing that makes you wondered why they bothered!)

So these things are "needful" only by analogy with RL; they are not actually necessary to one's survival in SL.

Where I would object is if they were made to be needful here. In other words, if new residents were compelled to find shelter, or buy new clothing (including freebies) in order to continue further into the platform. That is the implication of Maslow's pyramid: that one must first obtain these bare essentials before proceeding further up the ladder.

We don't need, and I don't think want, the addition of those kind of "hoops."

But optional tutorials and "games" for those who want these things, or who enjoy a goal-oriented approach? Sure, absolutely! Why not? And those who completed them would undoubtedly be better equipped to master SL.

[Lexxi Gynoid]

This might have already been menioned, I tried reading everything up to this post here, but there are already 11 pages so far, so...

Beyond the basic "fly over this hole" type things people have mentioned, SL did have some "entry-level" "new user" experiences to get people up to speed. I say SL instead of LL, as I do not recall if this was a third party thing or LL.  I had an alt that, when they started in SL, started in a "Virtual CSI:NY". New users learned how to operate in SL by going through the game.

There was an I Am Legend one as well, though I don't recall if that was a new user experience.

[Arielle Popstar]

4 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

We don't need, and I don't think want, the addition of those kind of "hoops."

But optional tutorials and "games" for those who want these things, or who enjoy a goal-oriented approach? Sure, absolutely! Why not? And those who completed them would undoubtedly be better equipped to master SL.

I think the point is whether SL has in place stuff to motivate the new person to move further into the world. IMVU for example gives a great motivation by giving new accounts some Promotional monies that allow them to purchase a few things for their avatar. That one little thing probably does quite a bit for retention because it is fulfills a basic need that many can identify with. Lots of people like making their avatar just a little unique to give themselves a little individuality.

Back in 2009 one was able to make a few L$ from money trees which probably had a lot to do with why I am still here today. Money trees are gone but is there anything out there to take their place? If the expectation is that new people are going to log in for their first time and pull out their credit card, I think one is going to be disappointed. The need is there to give new people enough incentive to keep coming back for the short term until they are sold on the platform.

[elleevelyn]

6 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

[Linden] should expand on it when the NUX avatar goes live.  Having well made clothing, hair, shoes, accessories available for new users would, IMO, keep people a bit longer so they can then explore what else SL has to offer.

i think is quite a bit of merit in this

earning tokens which can be redeemed for NUX apparel/wearables which can only be obtained with tokens. Meaning that the gamified NUX items are not also provided in Library

Token Experiences which are not necessarily restricted to Linden New User areas, a. Like the Experiences could be mounted anywhere on the grid.

if Linden were to provide an API and a associated public NUX repository then in addition to the Linden/Mole provided Token Experiences, people could create experiences  on their own land

People could also contribute content to the public NUX repository, up to to some limit of items per uploader - have to delete previous to upload more). Would help keep the repository fresh

 

 

[Orwar]

20 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

If the expectation is that new people are going to log in for their first time and pull out their credit card, I think one is going to be disappointed

   From what we've heard so far though, the NUX body will come with 'some' clothes (of course we've no idea what that will entail exactly). I usually always told new people I met to check out places like Freebie Galaxy and Free Dove before they started investing any money, so that they could get a feel for things first - if we'd have a similar venue for NUX stuff when that arrives I think that'd be a big help; perhaps if LL would be up for having a mall somewhere and creators can 'donate' clothes and such (perhaps with some curation to keep things tidy), that'd be a way to let people experience what it's like before they break out their wallets.

   Of course, that would be to compete with the market (I mean, not really, but it could be argued I guess), and I have no idea whether any of the big brands would think it worthwhile to give away free stuff (but then, most do anyway, so why not - exposure is nice, no?). 

   And if LL don't want to make an official thing, perhaps we'll see something such in the future (although I think there are several reasonable arguments to why such a place should be something official). 

[Arielle Popstar]

2 hours ago, Orwar said:

   From what we've heard so far though, the NUX body will come with 'some' clothes (of course we've no idea what that will entail exactly). I usually always told new people I met to check out places like Freebie Galaxy and Free Dove before they started investing any money, so that they could get a feel for things first - if we'd have a similar venue for NUX stuff when that arrives I think that'd be a big help; perhaps if LL would be up for having a mall somewhere and creators can 'donate' clothes and such (perhaps with some curation to keep things tidy), that'd be a way to let people experience what it's like before they break out their wallets.. 

Ok but that leads into the topic. The NUX body and clothing are free and handed out on a platter without any challenges to inspire some motivation.

On 6/28/2023 at 8:28 PM, Coffee Pancake said:

Second Life does not present any challenge to users that quality as being psychological or survival. This is the missing piece that causes people to leave so early in their journey here. They join SL and find nothing to do. There is no challenge to be met. No purpose to set them off on their adventure. No experience that allows them to define their starting place.

The need to meet psychological and survival requirements is so baked into all of us, that when presented with its absence, most people .. move on.

For me back when I joined, the challenge was to find and harvest L$ from the money trees which led to looking for and finding other ways to get those basics of a virtual life, much like r/l. It is in its own way the gamification within the platform leads to ever increasing challenges and successfully overcoming them. 

The common question for new people back in 2009 was, "how can I make money?" and now it seems to be "What is there to do?" because the motivations to progress in the world today, are no longer so easy to find.

Edited July 1, 2023 by Arielle Popstar

[Coffee Pancake]

1 minute ago, Arielle Popstar said:

The common question for new people back in 2009 was, "how can I make money?" and now it seems to be "What is there to do?" because the motivations to progress in the world today, are no longer so easy to find.

This is also why "can I have sex" was also a common question .. it's a personally meaningful outcome to aim towards and gives the place an easy "purpose".

Which is fine .. plenty of people started with this place as a masturbatory aid and then found oh so much more.

[Arielle Popstar]

1 minute ago, Coffee Pancake said:

This is also why "can I have sex" was also a common question .. it's a personally meaningful outcome to aim towards and gives the place an easy "purpose".

Which is fine .. plenty of people started with this place as a masturbatory aid and then found oh so much more.

Are the mentors even allowed to answer that being they are to stick to a General rating?

[Coffee Pancake]

1 minute ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Are the mentors even allowed to answer that being they are to stick to a General rating?

Yes we can.

[Persephone Emerald]

56 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

This is also why "can I have sex" was also a common question .. it's a personally meaningful outcome to aim towards and gives the place an easy "purpose".

Which is fine .. plenty of people started with this place as a masturbatory aid and then found oh so much more.

Now I'm curious how you'd answer this question as a mentor. Imagine I'm a newbie in a starter avatar at Welcome Island.

" Do people really have sex in this game?"

"How do they do it?" 

[Coffee Pancake]

2 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

Now I'm curious how you'd answer this question as a mentor. Imagine I'm a newbie in a starter avatar at Welcome Island.

" Do people really have sex in this game?"

"How do they do it?" 

(keep in mind I am mentoring on a dedicated account and look like a small orange robot)

I would just explain it simply in IM with the intent of directing them to sorting out an avatar first. It can't be too specific without getting into the weeds of what they're into, which knowing SL, likely wont be what they actually end up getting into.

"Sure, yes, sex, kink, lots of it .. but not looking like you just rolled off the boat ^^"

[Drayke Newall]

10 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

So these things are "needful" only by analogy with RL; they are not actually necessary to one's survival in SL.

I agree that perhaps some people do not 'need' these things for retention in second life, however in my experience a lot of new people I have met do want those things. There were plenty of 'hotels' in second life a few years ago and still a lot now where new players basically can get a free room to live in. They are always full of new players and almost impossible to get a room now if they haven't closed up shop already.

As to clothing, yes there are always going to be those that keep the ones they are given or nothing at all, however there are also plenty (if not more) of people who are the opposite.

Now I by no means can say I have talked to every new person that has ever come into SL as no one here can say either. The vast majority though that I have met have always asked the three following things over and over:

• How can I get lindens
• Where can i log in and out safely
• How can I make my avatar look better

Now you say that no one needs those things to survive SL which in is basic form is true. When however a person doesn't get those things and leaves, to me that says the opposite. When those things are the primary requests of new players and them leaving or they see a stigma around them as new players looking like they do, to me that is the point when the 'when' becomes a 'need' and SL has always been at that point. This is why LL have never been able to solve the retention issue as they ignore that the vast majority of things to do in SL do 'need' those basic things. LL didn't make it mandatory, the users did.

10 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Where I would object is if they were made to be needful here. In other words, if new residents were compelled to find shelter, or buy new clothing (including freebies) in order to continue further into the platform. That is the implication of Maslow's pyramid: that one must first obtain these bare essentials before proceeding further up the ladder.

No one is asking to make such things mandatory, but aren't they already mandatory now, driven by the user? There will always be people that dont need such things. There will however be people that do. So lets look at the latter people as far as the pyramid goes and colour code the interactions based on the pyramid colours.

If a new person doesn't have a home and they log out at a random place do they have the next tier in the pyramid 'safety/security'? No. They are subject to possibly logging in on a griefer, a person completely naked, a sim that no longer exists, a sim that no longer is owned by that person that allowed them to be there, a sim that is full (get booted to social island), etc.

If they dont have better clothes do they feel safer when people call them a noob, ignore them, dont allow them in sims? No. If they then dont have the financial security, can they then buy better items to wear and a better body so as they can then go to those places they are interested in or popular without being ridiculed/kicked out? No. Sure there are other places to go, but if those aren't the popular places they are interested in why stay? If they are insecure about themselves in RL, this will reflect in SL as they would want to look as good as they can to not feel insecure etc.

If those people feel insecure about themselves and their appearance due to not having better clothes or the lindens to buy them can they then move to the next level Belonging?

Say if a person heard SL has good RP or saw they have a harry potter themed RP region and joined for that. Can they belong to that RP community without Lindens or in theme clothes? No. They will get rejected at the places they are interested in as they require specific clothing and body and theme that require Lindens to purchase. Can they move up to the next level 'Belonging' which is friends, relationships, belonging to a group/family etc? No.

That person that is interested in SL because of RP leaves as they cant participate in that RP without the clothes, lindens etc. That person that is insecure or shy leaves because they cant find a place to feel safe or not be ridiculed etc. There are many other such instances. I know when I first joined i was insecure. Luckily Money Trees were still a thing and freebie items had the same quality as store bought items etc so I went around collecting Lindens and freebies so as I can look decent enough to even try go to a club etc.

Edited July 1, 2023 by Drayke Newall

[Drayke Newall]

5 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Money trees are gone but is there anything out there to take their place? 

Well there are the fishing games that give lindens however those are locked after a certain time whereby you need lindens to purchase bait or land to grow bait.

The only one that I could recommend and would suggest Mentors recommend for new players (and any other players) needing lindens is Crystal Craze. Basically you get a hud and basket, use the hud to tp to places that have crystals and then collect them and go back to the hq to 'cash out'. They have anti grief and anti-botting built in as well. It runs the same as the money tree just with crystals and modernised.

Lots of older accounts play Crystal Craze and Fishing, as well as Linden Realms, but Crystal Crave and Linden Realms are the best for new players.

Edited July 1, 2023 by Drayke Newall

[Istelathis]

I think you are on to something, and it may be in some ways something Louis CK touched upon unintentionally

I think our needs have been met, and exceeded.  From my observation, in this time, people tend to look for problems, to give their lives purpose, and I observe this in a lot of virtual worlds, not just SL.  I'm not sure how any virtual world can meet the needs of the many from Maslow's hierarchy of needs, because most of our needs have been met.  

It begs the question to me, that perhaps virtual environments would have to convince people that their needs have not been met, and provide a solution to a problem that does not exist for most of us.  I dunno, that seems to be the course for a lot of politics as of late, social media platforms thrive on creating problems for others, perhaps in this day in age it is better for a platform to provide problems that do not exist, and offer solutions for them, so as to convince others they need them.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

2 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

For me back when I joined, the challenge was to find and harvest L$ from the money trees which led to looking for and finding other ways to get those basics of a virtual life, much like r/l. It is in its own way the gamification within the platform leads to ever increasing challenges and successfully overcoming them. 

The common question for new people back in 2009 was, "how can I make money?" and now it seems to be "What is there to do?" because the motivations to progress in the world today, are no longer so easy to find.

Kids these days, eh?

Back in my day, we had to walk across three regions in homemade prim shoes just to be able to afford enough to buy a box to wear on our heads!

5 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

I think the point is whether SL has in place stuff to motivate the new person to move further into the world. IMVU for example gives a great motivation by giving new accounts some Promotional monies that allow them to purchase a few things for their avatar. That one little thing probably does quite a bit for retention because it is fulfills a basic need that many can identify with. Lots of people like making their avatar just a little unique to give themselves a little individuality.

Back in 2009 one was able to make a few L$ from money trees which probably had a lot to do with why I am still here today. Money trees are gone but is there anything out there to take their place? If the expectation is that new people are going to log in for their first time and pull out their credit card, I think one is going to be disappointed. The need is there to give new people enough incentive to keep coming back for the short term until they are sold on the platform.

I'm unclear on the point of this response. Or the reason for your apparent "confusion" over my post.

I've already said, several times, and even in the part of the post that you quote, that I quite understand that some people need and/or want "goals" and some form of gamification (leveling up, or whatever) to motivate them. And that's totally cool. I think (I'll say for about the 5th time) that it would be great to incorporate these kinds of mechanisms into the "new user experience."

As optional routes to follow when getting started.

Is the "optional" part the problem? You think everyone should be compelled to engage in what are perhaps, in practical terms, arbitrary and possibly pointless tasks in order to feel "motivation"?

Because some of us -- quite a few of us, I suspect -- don't need to be assigned artificial goals in order to feel motivated in SL. I can see the point in tutorials in certain things, above and beyond the basic UI controls, and I'd have probably happily taken such when I started had I seen them offered. I did in fact learn how to build, and how sell things in SL, quite early on. And I didn't need to be "motivated" to do so in order to achieve some artificial benchmark set by the platform. I didn't need to be given a whiff of cheese to run through the maze: my motivation was my own.

So, I'll say this again -- people are different, come from different cultural contexts, and are not always "motivated" by the same things. For those who expect and want tasks and goals, let's provide those, by all means! Great idea! Especially if they are in some way useful and beneficial to their future well-being in SL!

But forcing people who don't want or need gamification to engage with the platform is the fastest way to lose another, different, and by no means insignificant demographic that also contributes positively to SL.

Edited July 1, 2023 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Scylla Rhiadra]

33 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

I agree that perhaps some people do not 'need' these things for retention in second life, however in my experience a lot of new people I have met do want those things. There were plenty of 'hotels' in second life a few years ago and still a lot now where new players basically can get a free room to live in. They are always full of new players and almost impossible to get a room now if they haven't closed up shop already.

As to clothing, yes there are always going to be those that keep the ones they are given or nothing at all, however there are also plenty (if not more) of people who are the opposite.

Now I by no means can say I have talked to every new person that has ever come into SL as no one here can say either. The vast majority though that I have met have always asked the three following things over and over:

• How can I get lindens
• Where can i log in and out safely
• How can I make my avatar look better

Now you say that no one needs those things to survive SL which in is basic form is true. When however a person doesn't get those things and leaves, to me that says the opposite. When those things are the primary requests of new players and them leaving or they see a stigma around them as new players looking like they do, to me that is the point when the 'when' becomes a 'need' and SL has always been at that point. This is why LL have never been able to solve the retention issue as they ignore that the vast majority of things to do in SL do 'need' those basic things. LL didn't make it mandatory, the users did.

No one is asking to make such things mandatory, but aren't they already mandatory now, driven by the user? There will always be people that dont need such things. There will however be people that do. So lets look at the latter people as far as the pyramid goes and colour code the interactions based on the pyramid colours.

If a new person doesn't have a home and they log out at a random place do they have the next tier in the pyramid 'safety/security'? No. They are subject to possibly logging in on a griefer, a person completely naked, a sim that no longer exists, a sim that no longer is owned by that person that allowed them to be there, a sim that is full (get booted to social island), etc.

If they dont have better clothes do they feel safer when people call them a noob, ignore them, dont allow them in sims? No. If they then dont have the financial security, can they then buy better items to wear and a better body so as they can then go to those places they are interested in or popular without being ridiculed/kicked out? No. Sure there are other places to go, but if those aren't the popular places they are interested in why stay? If they are insecure about themselves in RL, this will reflect in SL as they would want to look as good as they can to not feel insecure etc.

If those people feel insecure about themselves and their appearance due to not having better clothes or the lindens to buy them can they then move to the next level Belonging?

Say if a person heard SL has good RP or saw they have a harry potter themed RP region and joined for that. Can they belong to that RP community without Lindens or in theme clothes? No. They will get rejected at the places they are interested in as they require specific clothing and body and theme that require Lindens to purchase. Can they move up to the next level 'Belonging' which is friends, relationships, belonging to a group/family etc? No.

That person that is interested in SL because of RP leaves as they cant participate in that RP without the clothes, lindens etc. That person that is insecure or shy leaves because they cant find a place to feel safe or not be ridiculed etc. There are many other such instances. I know when I first joined i was insecure. Luckily Money Trees were still a thing and freebie items had the same quality as store bought items etc so I went around collecting Lindens and freebies so as I can look decent enough to even try go to a club etc.

Everyone has things that they identify as "needs" that aren't really so. I "need" that book, or this new blouse. If I don't have this particular dress, I'll look shabby at the reception we're going to next week. I need this SUV because the neighbours laugh at my ancient hatchback. Etc.

If I don't eat in RL, I die. If I don't sleep, I will also die. If I don't have clothes and shelter, I'll likely be arrested and/or freeze to death in the winter.

These are needs, and they are the things that Maslow is talking about: having sufficient resources to avoid dying, and being able to live a safe, secure, and stable life with enough leisure (and money) to begin to branch out into other parts of human culture.

The relationship between Maslow's list of "needs" and your own is like the relationship between RL sex and SL sex, or RL dancing and SL dancing, or RL clothes and SL clothes: the SL "equivalents" are representations and analogues, not actual things. If you don't succeed at RP in SL, you watch a movie or read a book instead -- in other words, you engage in another cultural activity that is higher up the pyramid, just as SL itself is.

[Persephone Emerald]

40 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Everyone has things that they identify as "needs" that aren't really so. I "need" that book, or this new blouse. If I don't have this particular dress, I'll look shabby at the reception we're going to next week. I need this SUV because the neighbours laugh at my ancient hatchback. Etc.

If I don't eat in RL, I die. If I don't sleep, I will also die. If I don't have clothes and shelter, I'll likely be arrested and/or freeze to death in the winter.

These are needs, and they are the things that Maslow is talking about: having sufficient resources to avoid dying, and being able to live a safe, secure, and stable life with enough leisure (and money) to begin to branch out into other parts of human culture.

The relationship between Maslow's list of "needs" and your own is like the relationship between RL sex and SL sex, or RL dancing and SL dancing, or RL clothes and SL clothes: the SL "equivalents" are representations and analogues, not actual things. If you don't succeed at RP in SL, you watch a movie or read a book instead -- in other words, you engage in another cultural activity that is higher up the pyramid, just as SL itself is.

I don't think sex is a survival need either. The men who put it in the first category had probably never struggled to get food, water, or shelter. When one is worried about survival, sex becomes much less important.

[MissSweetViolet]

As someone who is both a gamer (primarily on Minecraft for that matter, when not on SL), and a heavy SL user. Speaking for my own experience at least, the last thing I'd want in SL is a game, if I want to game, I go to Minecraft. XD I come to SL to be creative and hangout with others, something that is hard to do right now in my real life.

As for meeting the basic needs of users, I don't think you can entirely because everyone will have a different idea of what that looks like. For me, my basic survival day one on SL was; 1; figure out basics (movement, ui, navigation, etc.), 2; put together a nice looking avatar, 3; figure out where to stay, 4; and finely, figure out where to meet others. Once I did all that, I felt pretty accomplished. Putting together my avatar especially, was my basic need being met, looking for the free things was my "hunting for food" so to speak, though others with their own experience may disagree.

I would actually state from my experience seeing and listening to new players I've met, that there doesn't need to be a challenge, but that the start of SL is already to challenging for many. They don't know basics, how to dress, what the basic ui functions do, where to find things, where to stay, etc. Stuff that should be shown to them in their first hours on first logging on.

I was lucky in that as a gamer, most of this stuff actually came second nature to me, but I'd be willing to guess there are a lot of users on SL who don't have gaming as a hobby. For many of them all this stuff can be extremely confusing and they get frustrated, board of trying to figure it out, and leave. As some who has tried and help explain about stuff like the ui and mesh to new users, it's not exactly easy ether, as it even though I understand it, it's not always easy to explain it ether. 

In my opinion, I think LL needs to make that ui learning top priority (as far as know they do not, but I've been inworld nearly 5 years now, so maybe things have changed since then), I also think a welcome freebie area is good (they've done this with the welcome hub, but having some essential items like clothing might be good), followed by a safe (or at least as safe as SL can get) place to set home, which was not as easy to find when I was new, though I did find one eventually till I could find a better place to stay. Then I would suggest a lesson on how to find and join groups and places, or at least promoting some groups to draw others in, maybe a place like Builder's brewery, or a help/freebie group. Though teaching how to find groups in the first place would be the better option, then users can find groups of their own interests.

As for those who would want to game in SL, I think just advertising places in welcome/starting areas that do them in SL would be good, many here mentioned things like MyStory, there are places like MadPea, it would be really easy to draw in those who like the idea of gaming in SL simply by showing them soon after joining where they can find it, because many don't often know where to find places (now we're back to the group/place finding problem).

Edited July 1, 2023 by MissSweetViolet

[Drayke Newall]

26 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Everyone has things that they identify as "needs" that aren't really so. I "need" that book, or this new blouse. If I don't have this particular dress, I'll look shabby at the reception we're going to next week. I need this SUV because the neighbours laugh at my ancient hatchback. Etc.

If I don't eat in RL, I die. If I don't sleep, I will also die. If I don't have clothes and shelter, I'll likely be arrested and/or freeze to death in the winter.

These are needs, and they are the things that Maslow is talking about: having sufficient resources to avoid dying, and being able to live a safe, secure, and stable life with enough leisure (and money) to begin to branch out into other parts of human culture.

The relationship between Maslow's list of "needs" and your own is like the relationship between RL sex and SL sex, or RL dancing and SL dancing, or RL clothes and SL clothes: the SL "equivalents" are representations and analogues, not actual things. If you don't succeed at RP in SL, you watch a movie or read a book instead -- in other words, you engage in another cultural activity that is higher up the pyramid, just as SL itself is.

You are taking Maslows list literally based on what is written in the pyramid sections RL wise and not looking at it in a game based way. No one argues with you that SL players dont need food etc to survive. Second life is however a virtual world where in essence your character is what you are RPing. Sure there isn't the threat of death if your character doesn't get its basic needs of food etc, but there is the threat that if those basic needs of why a person joined for them to enjoy and participate are not met or they are not directed to means of finding those needs then their account will 'die' by not coming back.

All games are like this and that is what the link I provided on page 9 discusses in the white paper. Each user type has its own requirements based on that pyramid. Whilst some users can start higher up the pyramid, other user types cannot and start at the bottom to progress. Those that start higher up also gradually start to need those at the bottom to continue to enjoy the platform and stay. A circle of life so to speak and keeping in mind Second Life is a different beast to a normal game.

From that whitepaper listed:

"To summarise, Maslow and Pink state that an individual is motivated to act in a way that fulfils their needs, specifically if a need is particularly urgent. By linking a game’s mechanics directly to these needs, the game designer can motivate players to act in certain ways – this is the core of gamification."

That line from that whitepaper mentioned above says what I am arguing. Using the meeting of those 'needs' to motivate people to stay within Second Life. Second Life as a game has certain specific needs that users (different user types) feel are urgent.

In the case of a person joining for RP their NEED for them to stay playing SL is to have a mesh body and clothes that allow them to participate in that. The bottom of that pyramid. If that urgent NEED is not met then those people as you say can go read a book etc. But in not meeting that urgent need, Second Life does not retain that user as they move elsewhere. By not meeting that urgent need of those lower basic pyramid sections for that user type, retention is not possible.

Likewise, a person looking for relationship (sexual or not) will start higher up on the pyramid and they dont at the first instance need those lower parts of the pyramid like shelter, security and clothes. But just like that white paper suggests, eventually if those lower requirements aren't met, they are unlikely to continue to participate either as eventually they will find that especially in sl, adult activities require things of which a full circle envelops whereby they then need the shelter (private secluded area, lindens, 'gear and certain avatar parts' to continue to participate in their chosen reason of joining sl.

The only user type that fits outside of the pyramid and goes to the top right away and stays there with no requirements of the lower sections or needing to go back to them is an explorer who by the nature of SL requires nothing except content to explore.

It is thereby in the interest of Linden Lab to direct those other users to something that allows them to meet that urgent need. If that is showing them by interaction in a tutorial how to create something they can sell to make lindens to buy the item (or create it themselves) or if that requires LL showing in their welcome area ways for people to earn those Lindens to buy those items to meet their needs then that is what needs to be done to direct them.

Now you say that you agree and have no problem with those things I mentioned the Welcome Area needs. You perhaps think that that like me will help retain players. The difference is, I am basing those welcome area changes I mentioned on what user types play sl and their needs to be met to be retained based on that pyramid. 

You may say that SL 'needs' are just 'wants' as they are not required for 'living' based on that pyramid but what I, others and that whitepaper linked are saying is that those wants, in the case of the game, turn into something a user 'needs' to stay active and participate (alive) in Second Life.

So in this case I think it is a matter of agreeing to disagree.

[Luna Bliss]

8 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

not looking at it in a game based way

Pink's theories relate to what motivates employees in business, but the residents of SL are not employees in a business. Sure, motivational theories for businesses and in Psychology can be applied to any situation, but we have to be aware of what fits and what doesn't, or we get into the apples to oranges problem.

It's ironic that by your insistence on the validity of applying Maslow's Psychological theory to gaming you are removing many of the elements that make gaming fun for many -- simply having fun!  While some, via playing a game, might find the mastery of getting survival needs fun, as they put one in control and allow achievement, for others they don't want to partake in this -- they have enough of it in their 1st life, or if they have some need to be competitive at all they apply it to the higher levels on Maslow's chart.  I'd definitely put myself in the latter camp -- when landing in SL I immediately flew away from any sort of gamification or competition -- even instructions were annoying.  And I've heard the same from others. If I had needed to struggle for game clothing and housing I would have been gone so fast, and almost 20 years later I've never felt compelled to do so. What I saw immediately instead was the amazing creativity that surrounded me, and I was shocked that I was free to participate in it. And then I discovered how much fun meeting people was -- learning from each other and sharing this creativity in all sorts of ways.

Again, I get the need for some to have this survivalist mentality, and that some expect that due to other games they've encountered before finding SL. But I think you need to understand that an equal number, perhaps even more, would hate it if SL turned into a game. And most importantly, focusing on this too much would detract from what makes SL unique and interesting for many (SL as a platform and not a game at all, and very connected to 1st life and in fact not really separated from it).
There are plenty of games out there where survival is a focus, and I don't get why you are so enamored with insisting that SL be one of them.

What it seems to boil down to with your analysis is that you're advocating a capitalistic society for SL, overly competitive in other words, and emphasizing a type of society that is hopefully on its way out the door in RL as we move toward a truly creative society that doesn't seek to place one person above another (that is, if climate change doesn't get us).
SL already shows us what IS for some, and what could be for others via removing the barriers for those who are chained too much in RL by the bottom levels of Maslow's hierarchy and so prevented from blossoming into the creativity envisioned by those higher levels.

Really, this all boils down to our fundamental perception of what the nature of humanity is and whether we adopt a conservative viewpoint and can't see it changing, or whether we, like Philip stressed in the LabGab event, are as humans basically good people who are, when having basic needs met, essentially kind and loving.  I don't see the basic nature of humans as  competitive dog-eat-dog survivalists, and would not want to emphasize this in any venue.

Edited July 1, 2023 by Luna Bliss

[diamond Marchant]

If I were a game (or game-not-a game) developer, I would likely disregard the Maslow Hierarchy as it was an idea Professor Maslow published in 1943 based on scant empirical evidence. The idea is still being debated. To apply the hierarchy to humans in a virtual world seems a stretch. To use it as a premise in a LabGab question is a false premise fallacy.

Rather, I would focus on brain chemistry. TikTok is addictive for a reason.

Also, I agree with Luna that, in games, the players should be "simply having fun". If something I do in SL turns out to not be fun, I stop doing it.

Edited July 1, 2023 by diamond Marchant

[Coffee Pancake]

12 hours ago, Istelathis said:

I think our needs have been met, and exceeded.  From my observation, in this time, people tend to look for problems, to give their lives purpose, and I observe this in a lot of virtual worlds, not just SL.  I'm not sure how any virtual world can meet the needs of the many from Maslow's hierarchy of needs, because most of our needs have been met.  

The overwhelming majority of people who start SL leave almost immediately.

This is true of all virtual worlds, we're just slightly better at holding on to a fraction of a percentage more. (This is almost certainly due to social momentum more than anything systemic or inherent to the platform. Having a friend here first significantly lowers the barrier to entry more than all other factors combined.)

Our needs .. as in the tiny minority who stay, have been met. Yours, mine, everyone in this thread. But we're the outliers.

 

I really can not overstated this enough. We are not representative. At all.

If I had to guesstimate numbers, way less than 0.1% last more than a single session here.

The massive turn over is in large part the driving force behind LL's two decade quest for "better people". They have solid numbers demonstrating the core "virtual world" concept's popularity, but something is so fundamentally wrong that literally no one stays.

Second Life is failing to achieve growth and has been failing pretty consistently since the initial bubble.

Edited July 1, 2023 by Coffee Pancake

[Drayke Newall]

1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

But I think you need to understand that an equal number, perhaps even more, would hate it if SL turned into a game.

If you think any of what I have said implies me thinking Second Life should turn into a non fun competitive game, you have not only missed my point entirely, but have also not even grasped the point of what the whitepaper I linked was talking about or even what, I can imagine, Coffee is talking about.

I will compare Second Life with a game (oh no, the horror). Second life's first experience for the average new user is like a person spawning at the starting zone of WoW with 100 npc's around them with quest markers over their head and the developers decided to leave the user to work out which of those 100 quest giving npc's gives the very first quest to start the main storyline. Then, when they work it out and start their story, they have to log-out in a bush because all the PvPers will kill them as soon they log back in as the devs decided not to include a safe zone in to 'rest' at. All the while having no reward money or showing them how to earn said money to buy new things to help them in their adventure.

As it stands now any new person coming into second life lands at welcome island does a simple tutorial of 'this is how you move' and 'this is how you dress'. There is NOTHING in the past or present welcome areas that shows a person interactively WHAT they can do, HOW they can survive (i.e. make money) and WHERE they can go or how to get there. (The new one still stops way short). It is an abrupt and harsh end in the form of, here is the Mariana Trench now learn how to swim or is identical to the aforementioned analogy of WoW with 100 quest givers.

I in no post here or in any other thread have ever said SL should have a point system, be competitive, turned into a game at the exclusion of others for new users to be retained. I have, however, said that part of the new user experience should allow people to SEE (give direction and a goal) that fun games can be made and played in Second Life should they wish to peruse that as part of their adventure in SL. Yay, LL finally listened and added Laser Tag. Shame it wasn't a little more use of NPC's and experience tools but beggars cant be choosers.

I think a lot of the problem in this thread and others is that when someone mentions or compares a game with second life or suggests that Second Life adopt the minutest game system, certain individuals instantly think that people are suggesting to turn SL into a game. Every person has their own need when playing a game or a creative engine like second life that is there to make them stay. A lot of that, in my opinion, does fall into those two bottom sections of that pyramid, just as the ones above also do.

I remember a thread not to long ago where some where suggesting to add more scripting ability to create better more functional games in second life. Such a thing would not affect any person that didn't want to create said games or play said games in second life, but would have profoundly impacted the fun and retention of people who want to play or create games in second life. All hell broke loose as people, just as now, jumped up and down saying how dare people suggest a thing as would be turning second life into a game, when in fact it wasn't and would never affect those people yet, would meet the needs of those specific user types that wanted that aspect to improve.

Edited July 1, 2023 by Drayke Newall