Is this new round of mentors a good idea?

[Persephone Emerald]

3 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

All this is off-topic. Sometimes the "conversation moves" and it's not really ok.

Does the "move" address the original question of, "Is this new round of mentors a good idea?" If so, fine: I think it is important to recognize the basic "fact" that Linden Lab has legal advisors, etc. and would not be so ill-advised (literally) as to institute a "Mentor Program" that will break any labor laws, ESPECIALLY in the US.

I submit that any other position is essentially "fantasy", arguing for the sake of arguing.

It's not off topic. 

The question of "Is this new mentor program a good idea?" has been answered by some as "No" because they view it as skirting legal employment laws or ethical employment practices. The discussion then follows as to what are the laws for employment vs. volunteer work in the US.

I think this work expects too much from volunteers, without being able to regulate their schedules and work properly. I think helping new users is a critical service to aid in new user retention, and as such it should be done by paid employees, preferably contracted Moles, because they understand Second Life as users themselves.

[Coffee Pancake]

1 minute ago, Persephone Emerald said:

preferably contracted Moles, because they understand Second Life as users themselves.

Iono .. have you seen the variations in Linden Home scales .. 

(im kidding im kidding please dont ban me)

[Randall Ahren]

32 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

There wasn't any approval, it just happened because at the time there weren't any federal US laws prohibiting online gambling.

I don't think that's right, but I cannot be bothered to check precisely when various federal laws involving gambling where enacted.

Legal isn't there to approve initiatives. Legal is there for plausible deniability. If something bad happens, legal says it was a rogue actor (employer, resident, or whomever), acting in violation of company policy and appropriate action has been taken, i.e., the employee fired, the resident account terminated, and a training program implemented to deter such future conduct.

Sometimes acting against the advice of legal results in good outcomes. Look at Uber and AirBnb for example. There are many laws requiring licensing for taxis and short-term rentals, but those organizations managed to expand rapidly enough they were able to violate many laws and still succeed. If Uber management had required legal approval for all of its decisions, Uber wouldn't exist today.

Tech companies have to move fast and break things (like laws).

[Coffee Pancake]

GRC - governance, risk, and compliance, is a huge deal.

[Silent Mistwalker]

26 minutes ago, Randall Ahren said:

I don't think that's right, but I cannot be bothered to check precisely when various federal laws involving gambling where enacted.

Legal isn't there to approve initiatives. Legal is there for plausible deniability. If something bad happens, legal says it was a rogue actor (employer, resident, or whomever), acting in violation of company policy and appropriate action has been taken, i.e., the employee fired, the resident account terminated, and a training program implemented to deter such future conduct.

Sometimes acting against the advice of legal results in good outcomes. Look at Uber and AirBnb for example. There are many laws requiring licensing for taxis and short-term rentals, but those organizations managed to expand rapidly enough they were able to violate many laws and still succeed. If Uber management had required legal approval for all of its decisions, Uber wouldn't exist today.

Tech companies have to move fast and break things (like laws).

Thanks for the completely unnecessary lecture on something you admit you don't know and can't be bothered to learn. Some of us do remember because we have been keeping tabs on things for decades.

[Love Zhaoying]

30 minutes ago, Randall Ahren said:

I don't think that's right, but I cannot be bothered to check precisely when various federal laws involving gambling where enacted.

This reminds me of the post category, "I don't care about this topic but am going to create a thread about it anyway."

But in this case, it seems more like, "perhaps your information is true, but I can't be bothered so will continue as if you did not post it."

[Love Zhaoying]

37 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

It's not off topic. 

The question of "Is this new mentor program a good idea?" has been answered by some as "No" because they view it as skirting legal employment laws or ethical employment practices. The discussion then follows as to what are the laws for employment vs. volunteer work in the US.

I think this work expects too much from volunteers, without being able to regulate their schedules and work properly. I think helping new users is a critical service to aid in new user retention, and as such it should be done by paid employees, preferably contracted Moles, because they understand Second Life as users themselves.

I think that I get it! Thanks, I was distracted by the apparent poor logic of the argument. "Must be a bad idea because LL doesn't know how to follow laws", is how I took it!

[Nika Talaj]

4 hours ago, elleevelyn said:

...Linden as a for-profit enterprise can't just add volunteers (unpaid persons) to its roster without providing a reason that is compliant with the Act. Volunteering (for zero payment/benefit) to work for a for-profit enterprise is not allowed under the Act. 

Linden would I think have to show that the Mentor Programme is not "work', "work' meaning an activity that supports the generation of revenue/profits. That its (Linden) revenue/profit is unaffected by the programme, meaning that the expected income would remain unchanged with or without the programme

Nalates touched on this earlier when they said that Linden has figures that show, back in the day with the old mentor programme, that they (Linden) retained more new accounts without the help of mentors than they did retain with the help of mentors. if this is true then Linden could make a case that the Mentor Programme (having no positive effect on new account retention) is a resident community service. And if this is true then residents can be engaged as community service volunteers.  is also interesting to me that the Mentor Programme is to be administered by the Moles, which itself is also a resident community service (albeit paid) 

I, too, have been assuming that LL has had legal/compliance prepare a position to justify this volunteer program, given their private, for-profit status.  Personally, I think the unprofitability of the previous mentor program would be a weak justification for calling these positions a "community service" instead of work, given how broad the FLSA's definition of "work" is.  Mentors are, basically, tutors who assist in new customers' learning to use SL.  I wouldn't be surprised if it were difficult to convince the FLSA that new residents are joining a 'community' that can be served, instead of simply new customers who are learning how to use LL's product. Making mentors more a "customer service" role than a "community service" role.

However, interesting tho this question is, I'm not a lawyer so I'll shush.

Edited June 11, 2023 by Nika Talaj

[Quartz Mole]

Please can we stipulate, for the purposes of this discussion, that LL has the legal side of things covered?   Unless, that is, someone who's qualified in US employment law thinks they're not?

I ask because I think a discussion of what Mentors Programme should be like, and what it should avoid, is probably going to be a lot more interesting and constructive than a technical debate about a specialist area of law that probably very few of us know in any detail.

[Love Zhaoying]

3 minutes ago, Quartz Mole said:

Please can we stipulate, for the purposes of this discussion, that LL has the legal side of things covered?   Unless, that is, someone who's qualified in US employment law thinks they're not?

I ask because I think a discussion of what Mentors Programme should be like, and what it should avoid, is probably going to be a lot more interesting and constructive than a technical debate about a specialist area of law that probably very few of us know in any detail.

Thank you!!

[Randall Ahren]

1 hour ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

Thanks for the completely unnecessary lecture on something you admit you don't know and can't be bothered to learn. Some of us do remember because we have been keeping tabs on things for decades.

What you said "it just happened because at the time there weren't any federal US laws prohibiting online gambling."

That is not true and misleading. There was the Federal Wire Act in existence well before that prohibited electronic transmission of information for sports betting across telecommunications lines and deemed applicable to online gambling on sports events. The Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act came about in 2006 specifically directed on online gambling on games of chance, but did not require compliance until around 2009 or 2010. Moreover, there was a plethora state laws and laws in other countries addressing online gambling, all of which would have to be accounted for in assessing the legal risk of permitting online gambling in SL.

Lastly, your reply to me was rude and insulting. I will not be responding to you again.

[Sid Nagy]

7 minutes ago, Randall Ahren said:

What you said "it just happened because at the time there weren't any federal US laws prohibiting online gambling."

That is not true and misleading. There was the Federal Wire Act in existence well before that prohibited electronic transmission of information for sports betting across telecommunications lines and deemed applicable to online gambling on sports events. The Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act came about in 2006 specifically directed on online gambling on games of chance, but did not require compliance until around 2009 or 2010. Moreover, there was a plethora state laws and laws in other countries addressing online gambling, all of which would have to be accounted for in assessing the legal risk of permitting online gambling in SL.

Lastly, your reply to me was rude and insulting. I will not be responding to you again.

Please read what Quartz Mole wrote just above your post.
It would be a shame if this thread would end behind a lock because of some back and forth about legal stuff that isn't our beer in the first place IMHO.

[Persephone Emerald]

On 6/9/2023 at 4:23 PM, Coffee Pancake said:

It wont move the needle in terms of simple measurable short term retention.

X% will stay.

Drop new accounts into a volcano .. a different X% will stay, although the number will be the same.

Mentors and all the rest .. a different X% stays, and again, the raw numbers will be the same.

 

The big difference in approach is who makes up that X% and what they then go one to make of their Second Life. I'm a firm believer in that we all did better when Mentoring was a thing.

Sorry I missed this post earlier. I think this is a great idea. Give new users a choice. Have a sign leading to 2 different paths.

"Would you rather be mentored by an unpaid volunteer ----->

<----- Or dropped into a volcano?"

Which option do you think most new users would pick?

[Coffee Pancake]

34 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

Sorry I missed this post earlier. I think this is a great idea. Give new users a choice. Have a sign leading to 2 different paths.

"Would you rather be mentored by an unpaid volunteer ----->

<----- Or dropped into a volcano?"

Which option do you think most new users would pick?

Volcano every-time. That's fun.

[Love Zhaoying]

I think the new round of mentors is a good idea! @Sid Nagy

Edited June 11, 2023 by Love Zhaoying

[Sammy Huntsman]

6 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I think the new round of mentors is a good idea! @Sid Nagy

I do too, a lot of people who just sign up need help. I mean we talk about user retention, if someone actually understands SL and is not lost. I can relate to that, I could not find my way off Mainland or even around Mainland. When I first stumbled upon SL. I quickly got bored and overwhelmed, I basically stopped playing until 2011. Back on track, I think it will help with user retention and we will see more noob accounts staying longer, due to people helping them. 

[Sid Nagy]

The plan will succeed or fail,  depending on the quality of the mentors.
As far as I can overlook how LL is planning to do this, I have my doubts it will be a success.
One simply can't expect high quality this way (demanding much, give nothing in return).
It will most likely be the same old song that ended the first attempt years ago. 

Time will tell.
I hope I'll stand corrected in a few years. The more fresh blood in SL, the better it is for its continuity.

Edited June 11, 2023 by Sid Nagy
Replaced flesh with fresh, to help out a hungry lion.

[Sid Nagy]

Oops. I quoted my own post instead of choosing edit. 

Edited June 11, 2023 by Sid Nagy

[Love Zhaoying]

I've been thinking some about "what" Mentors should teach to help with "initial" retention.

I had this idea because of recent posts where the focus was "can't find people", "can't find anything interesting", etc.

I think a very useful "initial" skill that Mentors could teach would be "How to Explore Second Life".  This could be presented like  a "group tour".  That way, new users get to see and experience different things in Second Life right away - like interesting places, popular places, things to do, etc. while also teaching "how to find destinations" in Second Life!

Just an idea - but it felt like a big idea to me.

Sorry, it didn't FEEL like a derail! 

🙂 

 

 

[Love Zhaoying]

4 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

The more flesh blood in SL, the better it is for its continuity.

You're making my lion hungry.

Maybe "fresh blood"? 

* drools *

 

[AmeliaJ08]

23 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I've been thinking some about "what" Mentors should teach to help with "initial" retention.

I had this idea because of recent posts where the focus was "can't find people", "can't find anything interesting", etc.

I think a very useful "initial" skill that Mentors could teach would be "How to Explore Second Life".  This could be presented like  a "group tour".  That way, new users get to see and experience different things in Second Life right away - like interesting places, popular places, things to do, etc. while also teaching "how to find destinations" in Second Life!

Just an idea - but it felt like a big idea to me.

Sorry, it didn't FEEL like a derail! 

🙂 

 

 

I'm with you on this. There's a need for basic initial hand holding, help with basic fundamental features of the world etc and then there's a need for guiding people in experiences which is quite different.

I like the tour group idea, I like the idea of adopting a noobie (or small group) and going to do something fun. I remember it not even being immediately clear what the scale of the SL grid actually was when I first joined, whisking someone away for a tour might be a good way of demonstrating that.

"where is everyone" and "what is there to do" seem to be questions that have always been asked by new users regardless of efforts to guide them so far, maybe there's ways of answering that haven't yet been tried though.

 

 

[Arielle Popstar]

12 minutes ago, AmeliaJ08 said:

"where is everyone" and "what is there to do" seem to be questions that have always been asked by new users regardless of efforts to guide them so far, maybe there's ways of answering that haven't yet been tried though.

Maybe a tour of all the kinky and sexy clothes, toys and smut places would help. I'll bet it is something they haven't tried do before but it is what hooked me into staying here.

Edited June 11, 2023 by Arielle Popstar

[Coffee Pancake]

Just now, Arielle Popstar said:

Maybe a tour of all the kinky and sexy clothes, toys and smut places would help. I'll bet it is something they haven't tried do before but it is what hooked me into staying here.

Adult content mentoring .. I would be fine with that.

[Arielle Popstar]

Just now, Coffee Pancake said:

Adult content mentoring .. I would be fine with that.

Yeah, it is in a large part what separates S/L from many of the other Virtual worlds out there. We got it, lets advertise it instead of trying to hide it.

[Sammy Huntsman]

I would rather just teach the basics, and help them maneuver around some of the difficulties that SL presents. Especially for a new person. I would not be comfortable mentoring about the adult side of things. If people want to do that, that is totally fine with me. You do you. But I will just teach them the basics.