Is this new round of mentors a good idea?

[xDancingStarx]

19 minutes ago, AzureWaves said:

2 hrs of work per week x 52 weeks in a year is 104 hours a year, you don't think that deserves a free Premium acct?

2 hours of work where most of the time *nothing* happens. I mean I'm not strongly opposed to it, it's just a lot of idle time.

Edited June 12, 2023 by xDancingStarx

[Quartz Mole]

Let's assume that, for the foreseeable future, Mentors aren't going to be remunerated.  

If people want to debate whether Mentors should be paid, I'd rather they did in a separate thread..   I'd like to restrict this thread to a discussion of what the programme should look like, and whether or not it's a good idea.   

[xXSuicidalIdolXx Candycane]

1 minute ago, Quartz Mole said:

Let's assume that, for the foreseeable future, Mentors aren't going to be remunerated.  

If people want to debate whether Mentors should be paid, I'd rather they did in a separate thread..   I'd like to restrict this thread to a discussion of what the programme should look like, and whether or not it's a good idea.   

THIS ^^^ 3rd warning, I will not forgive yall for getting this thread locked, smh, Thank You Quartz! ❤️

[AzureWaves]

19 minutes ago, xDancingStarx said:

2 hours of work where most of the time *nothing* happens. I mean I'm not strongly opposed to it, it's just a lot of idle time.

Electricity costs money.

[Coffee Pancake]

17 minutes ago, Quartz Mole said:

I'd like to restrict this thread to a discussion of what the programme should look like, and whether or not it's a good idea.   

It's a great idea .. I have applied.

I am concerned that this program is primed for all the problems the original program had, namely, LL trying to get it for free, and not paying too much attention to what went on. yes a lot of great mentoring happened before and will happen again.

but so will ... threats to address or coerce behavior, gate-keeping the "wrong sort" and thwarting their attempts to join, directing people to their friends business or clubs (first landing is home), conspiring to get newbies perma banned for 'reasons' and so on ..

hence the following discussion about it being more a more serious undertaking.

[xDancingStarx]

34 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

but so will ... threats to address or coerce behavior, gate-keeping the "wrong sort" [...]

Having 2 people on shift at the same place at a time would help countering bad behaviour, since it will not always be the same 2 people, too. But I'd also hope for the upcoming mentors that Linden is not going to force single person shifts since it's also way more fun to have a second person around.

[elleevelyn]

14 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

No. In the US, a "Public Company" usually means "publicly owned" (via stock, etc.)

my interpretation I got from the US Department of Labor

https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/14a-flsa-non-profits

I quote the relevant section as it seems to me this is the basis for Linden's decision to go with volunteers

 

Quote

 

Volunteers

The FLSA recognizes the generosity and public benefits of volunteering and allows individuals to freely volunteer in many circumstances for charitable and public purposes. Individuals may volunteer time to religious, charitable, civic, humanitarian, or similar non-profit organizations as a public service and not be covered by the FLSA. Individuals generally may not, however, volunteer in commercial activities run by a non-profit organization such as a gift shop. A volunteer generally will not be considered an employee for FLSA purposes if the individual volunteers freely for public service, religious or humanitarian objectives, and without contemplation or receipt of compensation. Typically, such volunteers serve on a part-time basis and do not displace regular employed workers or perform work that would otherwise be performed by regular employees. In addition, paid employees of a non-profit organization cannot volunteer to provide the same type of services to their non-profit organization that they are employed to provide.

 

the basis being that the Mentor Programme does not displace or perform work that would otherwise be performed by regular employees

am still unsure how Linden (the company) would see themselves as a public service, altho the Mole Programme could already be structured as independent of Linden the company and is in itself structurally set up as a public/community service

if so then as the Mentor Programme falls under the Mole Programme then is arguably legal  that mentors can be volunteers

edit add: The Mole programme is called the Linden Department of Public Works, so it could be that there is documentation that asserts that this is indeed the case,it is an actual documented Department of Public Works

Edited June 12, 2023 by elleevelyn

[Chic Aeon]

11 minutes ago, elleevelyn said:

if so then as the Mentor Programme falls under the Mole Programme then is arguably legal  that mentors can be volunteers

edit add: The Mole programme is called the Linden Department of Public Works, so it could be that there is documentation that asserts that this is indeed the case,it is an actual documented Department of Public Works

But the Moles are paid and work for hire  -- hired by a company that is definitely "for profit".  So this is a very muddy area. Thanks for doing the research -- I had no idea. 

 

PS:  I can't believe that The Lab didn't have the lawyers go over all this (those "in the known and unknown Universe" lawyers LOL) so maybe we are missing something here.  

 

 

Edited June 12, 2023 by Chic Aeon

[Kathlen Onyx]

I think this is a good idea as long as mentors are only showing how to use the tools available in Second Life.  How to open a box, add an attachment and how do they work. How to use the website and search for places to go.  This might be showing people how to teleport by TPing to Linden owned lands. Any "tours" of interesting destinations should be left out but shown how to find them in the destination guide.  I think how to use the viewers and website would help with retention.  Anything other than showing someone how to navigate and where to find information beyond basic controls IMO will be a disaster and will lead to favoritism.

As far as paying them or compensation, if you don't give them something for their time it will become a revolving door. Give them a free premium membership for their time and effort.

[elleevelyn]

7 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

PS:  I can't believe that The Lab didn't have the lawyers go over all this (those "in the known and unknown Universe" lawyers LOL) so maybe we are missing something here. 

i am just curious when it comes to these kinds of things. I think Linden do have a legal opinion, I am just wondering what that might be. The structure of the Department of Public Works might be it. As is nothing that precludes a private owned company from sponsoring a charitable organisation, and that sponsoring can include funding that covers payment to staff, it also includes seconding staff to work for the charitable organsisation, like a Programme Administrator for example

Edited June 12, 2023 by elleevelyn

[Chic Aeon]

4 minutes ago, elleevelyn said:

i am just curious when it comes to these kinds of things. I think do have a legal opinion, I am just wondering what that might be.

So -- it SEEMS that while it is perfectly legal for folks to volunteer at the Firestorm Gateway since it is of course all volunteer and not for profit, that volunteering for LL would not be so legal.   I hope someone official comes along and clears this up for us. 

 

Again thanks for the legwork. I wouldn't have thought of that -- and perhaps that was the general thinking about the subject LOL.  Ya gotta wonder. 

 

 

Edited June 12, 2023 by Chic Aeon
spelling

[Love Zhaoying]

I think when Quartz Mole made a statement earlier, it was pretty definitive and definitely intended to be interpreted as, "please drop this part of the topic": 

 

Edited June 12, 2023 by Love Zhaoying

[Love Zhaoying]

1 hour ago, elleevelyn said:

my interpretation I got from the US Department of Labor

https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/14a-flsa-non-profits

I quote the relevant section as it seems to me this is the basis for Linden's decision to go with volunteers

 

the basis being that the Mentor Programme does not displace or perform work that would otherwise be performed by regular employees

am still unsure how Linden (the company) would see themselves as a public service, altho the Mole Programme could already be structured as independent of Linden the company and is in itself structurally set up as a public/community service

if so then as the Mentor Programme falls under the Mole Programme then is arguably legal  that mentors can be volunteers

edit add: The Mole programme is called the Linden Department of Public Works, so it could be that there is documentation that asserts that this is indeed the case,it is an actual documented Department of Public Works

No. Sorry. Your quote is specifically regarding non-profit companies. Linden Lab is not a non-profit company. Can you please try and stick to the topic?

Edited June 12, 2023 by Love Zhaoying

[Rufferta Mainlander]

Just a data point. Tried to help a newb today who was using Black Dragon. I've never used it and I wasn't much help. It seems mentors will need to know more than just Firestorm and The Official Second Life Viewer.

I'm assuming that mentors will have a communication band that they can use when they need experts in using different types of viewers, as well as those fluent in different languages or areas of expertise.

Trying, but not being able to help was humbling - those of you who are volunteering to be mentors are brave. Thank you

 

[Nika Talaj]

I was just thinking about how to make the mentors' jobs a little easier.  Earlier in this thread, people mentioned the tedium of being a mentor - the same questions, over and over, that quite possibly are answered in some of the learning materials.

[I realize that LL keeps valiantly trying to make learning as succinct and palatable as possible.  The set of signboards at the Belli Hub are a pretty good bunch, offering simple, valuable units on "How to Shop" etc. The fault, dear LL, lies not in your tutorials, but in the noobs, who often don't want to read much.]

One thing that might speed up a mentor's interactions would be the ability to easily share the new user's client window.  Yes, this can be done via Discord or Skype, but how cumbersome!  Does LL have a client widget, maybe it's a QA tool, to do that? 

Another idea: Think of Netflix's "The Good Place", which featured an "informational assistant" named Janet. A resident could call for Janet at any time, and poof!  She'd show up and answer their question.  Could an android bot do that at the welcome centers?  Make their name an unusual one, like "Gogo".  Say "Gogo" in chat, and poof!  A friendly little mech shows up and, interactively, tries to answer your question.  If the user answers No when Gogo asks if their question has been answered, then the Gogo could ask for a human mentor via the mentor Discord channel and/or inworld group.

------------------------------

A Gogo could even just be wandering around the welcome center all the time, and if users attempt to randomly chat with it, offer interesting little learning interactions.  E.g.:

user: "You're cute"

Gogo: "Hi!  Would you like to know how to do this?"  (activates a cool poofer that changes colors)

User: anything but "no"

Gogo gives the user the poofer, which also has a simple HUD that changes the particle colors and shapes.  Explains what a poofer is, and also what a HUD is.  Maybe explains that things like this need to be added, not worn, and shows that if Gogo "wears" the poofer instead of "adding" it, their hand disappears.  Etc.

[Sid Nagy]

8 hours ago, Rufferta said:

Just a data point. Tried to help a newb today who was using Black Dragon. I've never used it and I wasn't much help. It seems mentors will need to know more than just Firestorm and The Official Second Life Viewer.

I'm assuming that mentors will have a communication band that they can use when they need experts in using different types of viewers, as well as those fluent in different languages or areas of expertise.

Trying, but not being able to help was humbling - those of you who are volunteering to be mentors are brave. Thank you

 

I think the task of the LL mentor program should only be there for people who log in for the first time and need some help with the real basic problems they encounter:
how to walk
how to fly
how to sit and use the menu to change possition
how to use the local chat, how to PM, how to use voice.
how to pick up a freebee
how to open a box
how to take a landmark
how to open a notecard
how to place a friends request
how to teleport
how to buy L$
how to find the marketplace and recurring events
how to find tutorials on Youtube
how to change clothes
And that should be about it IMHO (okay maybe I forgot one or two).  The rest needs classes or inworld friends.

I like the idea of small guided tours with small groups.

I think mentors should not become day long or week long personal assistants for someone, but only help new people with the real essential first steps. The real first steps.  Fiddling with other viewers, give dress up advise etc. are no part of that IMHO.

Edited June 12, 2023 by Sid Nagy

[Phil Deakins]

5 hours ago, Quartz Mole said:

Let's assume that, for the foreseeable future, Mentors aren't going to be remunerated.  
[...]
I'd like to restrict this thread to a discussion of what the programme should look like, and whether or not it's a good idea.   

What the mentoring programme should look like is not the topic of this thread. You can start another thread if you want that discussion.

Whether or not it's a good idea is the topic, and all the discussion about LL either getting free labour, or paying for it, is exactly on-topic, because the mentoring programme is free labour, which is either a good idea or not. E.g. the mentoring programme is a good idea provided that the mentors are paid in cash or kind, but it's not a good idea if they are not. Entirely on-topic.

Edited June 12, 2023 by Phil Deakins

[xXSuicidalIdolXx Candycane]

I'm just going to come out and say it this is why the retention is probably low and people leave I have read 14 pages of nothing but back and forth none of you listen to the warnings and not all of you but there's a good handful of people in here that think it should go one way or another my advice to you if you don't like what Linden Labs is doing then why don't you get off the form and go make your own volunteer program yes?

 

I mean everybody is so back and forth and if this is how everyone is going to act towards newcomers no wonder everybody gets confused there's already a steep learning curve but when you throw in everybody's back and forth y'all are making this more confusing than what it has to be again all of you but geez.. a little advice normally what happens is a employee works for a company gets as much information as possible sets off and creates their own company. there is no excuse why some of you who have been here for 17 years can't come up with a service of your own since you know Second Life In and Out.

 

There has been a total of three warnings and you expect Linden labs to listen to you? Y'all can't even listen to the mole, I only started two years ago so I wasn't around for the main volunteer section but if this is how most of y'all acted back then no wonder it went up in chaos, this just feels so divided and it doesn't have to be.. why don't we all just relax for a second and let the program roll out and take it from there shall we?

Edited June 12, 2023 by xXJupiterHeightsXx Starchild

[Sid Nagy]

28 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

What the mentoring programme should look like is not the topic of this thread. You can start another thread if you want that discussion.

Whether or not it's a good idea is the topic, and all the discussion about LL either getting free labour, or paying for it, is exactly on-topic, because the mentoring programme is free labour, which is either a good idea or not. E.g. the mentoring programme is a good idea provided that the mentors are paid in cash or kind, but it's not a good idea if they are not. Entirely on-topic.

I agree with you on this one Phil.

The discussion about the legal aspects, that went on for pages was off topic and Quartz rightfully said something about that then.
With his last post he is trying to shift the goal posts a bit during the game IMHO, in a for LL more favorable (read: free) direction.

Edited June 12, 2023 by Sid Nagy

[Sid Nagy]

6 hours ago, xDancingStarx said:

2 hours of work where most of the time *nothing* happens. I mean I'm not strongly opposed to it, it's just a lot of idle time.

You think, that volunteers will stay two hours on shift week in week out, if nothing happens?

I think, that when the phone viewer is launched (and if it holds its promises) SL will likely be flooded again with real newbies instead of the 87th alt of an established oldbee set into our world because of a witty name.

[Phil Deakins]

It's been suggested that a suitable payment might be a free Premium. I'll go a bit lower  A free Plus might be suitable. It would provide a mentor with 150L/wk and 512m of free tier.

But LL would have a problem with paying anything. It would be possible for people to register as mentors and do nothing, but still receive the rewards. To avoid it being taken advantage of, it would need some sort of checking system, which would need some programming. Giving mentors the Mentor last name, or a group with the Mentor tag, wouldn't solve it without programming to keep tabs on the time such accounts spent where new arrivals start. It would work with that sort of system, but I doubt that LL will do it.

LL is asking for free labour, and their attitude may be that, if people want to do it, fine, but if not, it doesn't matter. I'm ok with that, but if LL actually wants a mentor system, then imo it's a bad idea unless the mentors are paid in some way.

Edited June 12, 2023 by Phil Deakins

[elleevelyn]

i think the main thing is understanding what the mentors do

i will take my point of reference as having been (in a previous life) a mentor in the past programme

1) Greeter. A new person spawning is met with: "Hi! Welcome to Second Life". Most new accounts ignore the greeting (ignore also meaning that they don't see it). But is a few people who do and will say Hi back and a conversation can sometimes ensue. Which other new accounts do at times join into. The main follow-on conversation from the new account typically being along the lines of: Whats this game about? How do I play it ? What do I do now ? etc. Which are all pretty much open-ended questions that result in open-ended answers

2) Director. A Director Mentor is a bit different from a greeter. A director will say: Hi! If you need any help let me know." The Director greeting steers the conversation from the outset. It allows the new person to respond with "Hi! thank you. I am good with working it out by myself, But thanks for the offer!" Alternatively the new account sees the Director as a person staffing the Information Kiosk and engages further on that basis

3) Buddy. A Buddy Mentor typically accepts every friend request from new accounts. The Buddy Mentor develops long-term relationships with new accounts according to the wants of the new friend(s). Of the 3 roles Buddy Mentor is the most demanding in terms of relationships maintenance

breaking down the scenarios into actual jobs

Greeter Mentor is best on the Spawn Island. The job of the Greeter is to keep the new accounts moving by answering every question with: "Learn how to walk, to jump, to fly and to use your viewer camera to look at things. Follow the path and you will learn how to do these. When you get to the end of the path, then you will be able to go to the next level"

at the end of the path is another Greeter who says: Well done! You did it! You now ready to level up. Next level is Newbie/Social Island where is lots of cool and interesting things for you to do. Walk into the portal beside me." Which pretty much every new account does and woosh off they go. This end of path greeting is positive affirmation for the new account of making it to the end of the path. Also too, the end Greeter watches for new people who get stuck in ditches and stuck on ceilings. Which typically is an IM saying: "Press "E" key to go up. Press "D" key to get down from the ceiling"

2) Newbie/Social Island.  At the landing point from Spawn Island. Director Mentor. "Hi! Welcome to Social Island. Woohoo! You made it to here. You doing great! If you need any help just ask me ok" No matter what the new account asks, the answer is: "What are you interested in ? Go thru the portal that best matches your interest. If you get stuck or unsure out there then press the Home button (top left your screen) and you will come back to here." And woosh! off they go, pretty much all of them

after exploring for a bit, new person comes Home and says: "How do I get a land ? How do I get an avatar like I saw at this place ? etc." Director Mentor says: "Go down the stairs here, and you will see Buddy Person with Mentor tag over their head . Buddy Person knows how to do that and will help you. I will contact Buddy on your behalf ok. Buddy will send you a Instant Message and you can go on together from there."

Buddy Mentor is also on patrol. Patrolling the inworld infohubs say Hi! to people and being there for them when they ask for help

Like the Greeter Mentor, the Director Mentor job is to keep people moving. The Buddy Mentor's job is to be the retention agent

Most people who take on mentor roles can fulfil all of the roles. The Mentor Programme Manager's job is to train the mentors to understand what the job is at each of the stations. When mentor's are not taught what the job is at stations then it all pretty much turns to custard from a new account's pov

 

is custard when a end Greeter Mentor switches to a Buddy Mentor and abandons their designated station, teleports away with the new account in tow.  The custard is what happens to the other new accounts who don't get positive affirmation, as the mentor who is supposed to be there took off with their newest bestie

Edited June 12, 2023 by elleevelyn
custard

[Sid Nagy]

.

Edited June 12, 2023 by Sid Nagy
Carry on.

[Love Zhaoying]

2 hours ago, Sid Nagy said:

how to walk
how to fly
how to sit and use the menu to change possition
how to use the local chat, how to PM, how to use voice.
how to pick up a freebee
how to open a box
how to take a landmark
how to open a notecard
how to place a friends request
how to teleport
how to buy L$
how to find the marketplace and recurring events
how to find tutorials on Youtube
how to change clothes

I vote we add "how to stand", too!

[Love Zhaoying]

56 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

.

Is that a spot of custard? If so, is custard good or bad?