New Feature: Scripted Agent Estate Access Discussion

[Arielle Popstar]

10 minutes ago, EliseAnne85 said:

Tilia is the licensed money transmitter though, so they have you on an AI database somewhere.  If you need to cash out, you may need to present a Driver's License, etc., and other things to prove who you are at Tilia's sole discretion.  This is the life of money - fiats and cryptocurrencies and virtual tokens - on the internet.  

So what? How does that invalidate my initial point? Tilia has as much or more information about the residents as LL does. Every layer on which our data resides is just another potential vector for hacking or compromising  it.

[Arielle Popstar]

13 hours ago, Paul Hexem said:

Technically if you offer info, the person receiving it isn't in violation of the GDPR. Putting it in your profile is offering.

If LL had to change something, they're more likely to remove the ability to fill out profiles than break content on the whole grid.

Name, UUID, Birthdate, Payment info or lack of, Partner, Groups and Feed info are not offered but added by default. I don't think it would go over well if Residents did not have the ability to add information to their profiles.

[benchthis]

16 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Recent poster said (paraphrasing) LL can do whatever they want with our data. While the TOS / TOC may not have a specific clause, I certainly hope LL would "never sell our data".

Some 3rd party businesses within Second Life are doing that for them. 

Here's a quote from the latest Lab Gab with Philip Linden. He touches on Surveillance Capitalism & Behavior Manipulation.

“A business whose core design is to do advertising to do targeting, if that business is successful in building a virtual world like this, the potential for human harm is hard to overstate. The reason for that is as we go into these worlds wholly as beings; we give more of ourselves to the world. If the people running the world are surveying that data, building NPC avatars with AI that are taking advantage of that surveillance, the end game for us is not one we want to see out. It’s a terribly dangerous situation.”

I agree I don't want to residents manipulated and exploited.  

To put this in context skip to 21:00

 

 

[Rowan Amore]

28 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Tilia has as much or more information about the residents as LL does

Unless you provide Tilia with additional information to be able to cash out, they have no more information than was available when LL owned them outright, i.e., your payment info on file.  Tilia is led by the former CFO of Linden Lab so not such a clean and clear break from LL/SL as one might think.

[Paul Hexem]

6 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Name, UUID, Birthdate, Payment info or lack of, Partner, Groups and Feed info are not offered but added by default. I don't think it would go over well if Residents did not have the ability to add information to their profiles.

Yeah, but legally none of that is private info. Only when people overshare is there privacy issues. Legally. MMO character info sites have existed for decades and still exist for that reason.

[EliseAnne85]

30 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

So what? How does that invalidate my initial point? Tilia has as much or more information about the residents as LL does. Every layer on which our data resides is just another potential vector for hacking or compromising  it.

Tilia was spun off of LL as a subsidiary.  Tilia has always had your basic payment information.  I thought you were talking about the "do not need to provide additional information".  Also, if you look at your screenshot payment stub, it says Tilia/Second Life.  When it comes to money, I don't think we can expect too much privacy.  They need the data to process to whom it goes to and from where it came from.  I don't quite understand your beef here about Tilia?  

Do I need to use Tilia to buy Linden dollars?

No. Tilia is not involved in the Linden dollar purchase process. You can continue to use your payment method on file to buy Linden dollars and do not need to provide any additional personal information.

Somebody is lying. My last purchase of Lindens was paid to Tilia.

 

 

[Silent Mistwalker]

9 hours ago, Jennifer Boyle said:

I wasn't complaining about it. I was just saying what it is. I am fine with it. 

Didn't say you were complaining. I just pointed out why that clause is in there and that without it, SL doesn't exist for those who are unaware of the reasons behind it.

[Arielle Popstar]

Just now, Rowan Amore said:

Unless you provide Tilia with additional information to be able to cash out, they have no more information than was available when LL owned them outright, i.e., your payment info on file.  Tilia is led by the former CFO of Linden Lab so not such a clean and clear break from LL/SL as one might think.

Again, how does that negate my initial point? You have now shown two contradictory links how Tilia is or is not involved in Linden Purchases and regardless, my credit card receipt proves they are. At this point I'd prefer @Soft Linden to either explain how it appears contradictory or perhaps clarify the pages to more accurately reflect the reality.

[Quartz Mole]

Please let's not get side-tracked into sniping at each other's typos.    Satisfying though it is, it really doesn't contribute to civil and productive discussion of an important topic, and leads  only to the sort of bickering and ill-feeling that gets threads closed.

[EliseAnne85]

2 minutes ago, Quartz Mole said:

Please let's not get side-tracked into sniping at each other's typos.    Satisfying though it is, it really doesn't contribute to civil and productive discussion of an important topic, and leads  only to the sort of bickering and ill-feeling that gets threads closed.

We're not bickering.  I made a joke.  But, I think when talking about vital LL business' in a thread, we should have the spelling correct so we know who we are discussing.  But, I made sort of a joke.  It was not bickering, I say.  Forgive me, please.

[EliseAnne85]

16 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Again, how does that negate my initial point? You have now shown two contradictory links how Tilia is or is not involved in Linden Purchases and regardless, my credit card receipt proves they are. At this point I'd prefer @Soft Linden to either explain how it appears contradictory or perhaps clarify the pages to more accurately reflect the reality.

Tilia is a subsidiary of LL, but since JPM's investment, I don't believe it is a wholly-owned subsidiary.  However, JPM invested, do they really want to know the names of those in SL?  Mostly likely not a bit.  Is Tilia less safe now because it's a spun off subsidiary?  I highly doubt it or someone like JPM would not invest.   Tilia code's was/is said to be spectacular.  

[Innula Zenovka]

9 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Again, how does that negate my initial point? You have now shown two contradictory links how Tilia is or is not involved in Linden Purchases and regardless, my credit card receipt proves they are. At this point I'd prefer @Soft Linden to either explain how it appears contradictory or perhaps clarify the pages to more accurately reflect the reality.

Tilia are payment processors.  I pay money from my bank account/credit card to Tilia, and they transfer the funds to my US$ account with Linden Lab.  I then use the funds in my LL US$ account to buy L$ or to pay Tier -- Tilia aren't involved in those transactions.   They just help move the funds from my credit card to the LL US$ account, but Tilia don't know what happens to them after that.

Similarly, when I cash out, I ask LL to transfer funds from my L$ account to Tilia, who send the money to my PayPal account.

The basic idea is to separate off activities that are regulated by US federal and state licencing and reporting requirements for online cash transfers and have those all handled by a separate specialist legal entity, Tilia, so LL's accounts department don't have to worry about them, and so that they're kept completely separate from in-world L$ transactions between residents.

 To my mind, it protects resident privacy -- Tilia, who are subject to  privacy legislation as it applies to financial services providers, are the only people with access to my First Life details,, but don't have access to any information about my inworld activities or transactions, which only LL know about.

[Love Zhaoying]

49 minutes ago, Quartz Mole said:

Please let's not get side-tracked into sniping at each other's typos.    Satisfying though it is, it really doesn't contribute to civil and productive discussion of an important topic, and leads  only to the sort of bickering and ill-feeling that gets threads closed.

Thanks, @Quartz Mole! Next challenge is Belisaria!

[benchthis]

8 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Thanks, @Quartz Mole! Next challenge is Belisaria!

[EliseAnne85]

1 hour ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Tilia has as much or more information about the residents as LL does. Every layer on which our data resides is just another potential vector for hacking or compromising  it.

Tilia has been in operation for seven years, I think.  

LL spun off Tilia as a subsidiary and needed an investment because times and monies are changing.  

There is a Forbes article, I believe, which states Tilia was spun off in order to allow for more currencies.  The "more currencies" are not specified in the article, but we were told this investment from JPM was a strategic maneuver by LL, and I believe at the time the notice was released on the front page of the SL Webpage, that this will allow for more currencies was addressed there also.   

I have a feeling Tilia may be setting up for some cryptocurrencies but I cannot 100% promise that is true.

Yet, let's say it is and the world is changing and will allow some crypto, well...things change.  And, if we don't like those changes we either have to swallow our pride and trust the process or leave it.  We don't have much choice.  

I wish I could ease your mind of your worries but I think as a user base we are as safe as we can be.  LL doesn't sell our personal data.  

Paypal doesn't send me spam.  I doubt Tilia will ever either.  It's the spam where problems can occur.  If you want further protection of your data, go to voice activation maybe or ask around what you can do to further protect your data.  

[Innula Zenovka]

For over a year now, Tilia also have been payment processors for inworld-purchases in games made with the Unity engine, so it's not just an LL thing any more

https://www.lindenlab.com/releases/tilia-unity-partnership

 

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

For over a year now, Tilia also have been payment processors for inworld-purchases in games made with the Unity engine, so it's not just an LL thing any more

https://www.lindenlab.com/releases/tilia-unity-partnership

 

Cool! Plus, Sansar, right!

[Rowan Amore]

2 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Again, how does that negate my initial point? You have now shown two contradictory links how Tilia is or is not involved in Linden Purchases and regardless, my credit card receipt proves they are. At this point I'd prefer @Soft Linden to either explain how it appears contradictory or perhaps clarify the pages to more accurately reflect the reality.

@Innula Zenovkaexplained it much better than I could.

[Jennifer Boyle]

2 hours ago, Quartz Mole said:

Please let's not get side-tracked into sniping at each other's typos.    Satisfying though it is, it really doesn't contribute to civil and productive discussion of an important topic, and leads  only to the sort of bickering and ill-feeling that gets threads closed.

Let's express our appreciation to Quartz for working through the weekend.

[Arielle Popstar]

2 hours ago, Innula Zenovka said:

To my mind, it protects resident privacy -- Tilia, who are subject to  privacy legislation as it applies to financial services providers, are the only people with access to my First Life details,, but don't have access to any information about my inworld activities or transactions, which only LL know about.

Seems to me after reading some of the Tilia threads Link Link Link is that there is still a fair bit of confusion of how deep Tilia's tentacles are threaded through SL itself. First off, the same username and password are used to access Tilia and SL, and EVERONE has a Tilia account, regardless if one uses it to cash out or not.

Quote

Effective August 1, in order to continue using Second Life you will have to agree to Tilia’s Terms of Service and Privacy Policy.  A Tilia Account associated with your Second Life Account will automatically be created for you and you will not need a separate username or password to access your Tilia Account.  

Tilia by default has the same info on you as the Lab, which only stands to reason if they are to act as a money exchanger. At this point it is unknown if Tilia has a L$ wallet available for SL residents for user to user transactions but considering it is what they do for Unity, I would guess it is what is intended at some point. There should be nothing stopping them from seamlessly transitioning residents from the Lab to Tilia to take over the L$ transactions without even needing to notify the residents, since we already agreed to it through the additional ToS addendums we all validated upon first login after the changes back in 2019. 

I disagree with you Innula that they are separating R/L from the virtual because having to use the same account login for both, discounts that pretty clearly. They may not and probably don't care about my activities outside of the financial dealings but suspect they would have access to them if they needed to do any investigations.

[Arielle Popstar]

3 hours ago, EliseAnne85 said:

Tilia is a subsidiary of LL, but since JPM's investment, I don't believe it is a wholly-owned subsidiary.  However, JPM invested, do they really want to know the names of those in SL?  Mostly likely not a bit.  Is Tilia less safe now because it's a spun off subsidiary?  I highly doubt it or someone like JPM would not invest.   Tilia code's was/is said to be spectacular.  

Yes, you are probably right after I had thought about it more but still, it is still is more selling of us, the product, which is the point I was making to @Love Zhaoying

[Innula Zenovka]

15 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Seems to me after reading some of the Tilia threads Link Link Link is that there is still a fair bit of confusion of how deep Tilia's tentacles are threaded through SL itself. First off, the same username and password are used to access Tilia and SL, and EVERONE has a Tilia account, regardless if one uses it to cash out or not.

Tilia by default has the same info on you as the Lab, which only stands to reason if they are to act as a money exchanger. At this point it is unknown if Tilia has a L$ wallet available for SL residents for user to user transactions but considering it is what they do for Unity, I would guess it is what is intended at some point. There should be nothing stopping them from seamlessly transitioning residents from the Lab to Tilia to take over the L$ transactions without even needing to notify the residents, since we already agreed to it through the additional ToS addendums we all validated upon first login after the changes back in 2019. 

I disagree with you Innula that they are separating R/L from the virtual because having to use the same account login for both, discounts that pretty clearly. They may not and probably don't care about my activities outside of the financial dealings but suspect they would have access to them if they needed to do any investigations.

The whole point of creating Tilia is that it enables Linden Lab to separate residents' fiat currency transactions with the Lab (subject to strict regulation and reporting requirements by both international and domestic regulations concerning cybercrime and terrorism) from their (unregulated) in-world L$ transactions.

Tilia's taking over responsibility for resident-to-resident L$ transactions would place them in exactly the position LL were before they created Tilia, and recreate the very problem they were set up to avoid -- that is, they'd find themselves in the middle of a regulatory minefield just waiting to blow up in their faces.    

This is something I used to have to know a bit about for my first life job and, long story short, keeping resident to Lab US$ transfers and resident to resident L$ transfers under the same roof is just asking for very expensive trouble with the possibility of ruinous fines.   It's something that worried me ever since I started in SL, and I was amazed it took LL so long to split off the US$ transfers and pass them over to Tilia.   

For Tilia to take over L$ transactions would be an act of madness, severing only  to recreate the very problem Tilia was created to solve.   It won't happen.

More on Tilia and LL here, with a link to a previous forum thread.   Tilia and SL – Inara Pey: Living in a Modemworld

 

 

[EliseAnne85]

29 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Tilia by default has the same info on you as the Lab, which only stands to reason if they are to act as a money exchanger. At this point it is unknown if Tilia has a L$ wallet available for SL residents for user to user transactions but considering it is what they do for Unity, I would guess it is what is intended at some point. There should be nothing stopping them from seamlessly transitioning residents from the Lab to Tilia to take over the L$ transactions without even needing to notify the residents, since we already agreed to it through the additional ToS addendums we all validated upon first login after the changes back in 2019. 

As far as a "wallet", I believe you have to open one through Tilia and then Tilia needs more information from the user.  I'm not really sure.  Tilia is a long, long read.   

However, we are a bit off topic.  What I am concerned about and why I suggested just getting rid of the script GETobjectDETAILS is because of bots and the possibility of spam and/or social engineered scams.  However, Innula explained that we'd basically be throwing the baby out with the bath water if we did that.  Paypal and Tilia would never send us spam but nefarious people try to send things that look like they came from Paypal or Tilia but are nefarious links towards keylogging us.  As far as bots in general, we want to avoid the scams but try not to throw the baby out with the bath water.  And that, will take expertise far greater than mine to figure out.

4. Stored Value Balances

4.1. General

Tilia may offer a Stored Value Balance associated with your Account, which is a stored value account issued by Tilia in which you hold funds.

The Stored Value Balance services provided to you by Tilia are a hosted digital wallet issued by Tilia enabling you to store funds or Digital Tokens electronically (the "Stored Value Balance"); and certain payment services enabling you to do the following:
a) send funds or Digital Tokens electronically (i.e., funds held in the Stored Value Balance can be used to make payments to other Platform users or to the Publisher);
b) receive funds or Digital Tokens electronically in accordance with Section 4.2 below (i.e., funds can be received into the Stored Value Balance from you, other Platform users, or the Publisher or as a result of the exchange of Digital Tokens issued by Tilia on a Platform); and,
c) redeem funds held in the Stored Value Balance in accordance with Section 4.3 below.

Depending on our arrangement with the Publisher, your Stored Value Balance may hold funds denominated in fiat or Digital Tokens, defined in Section 5 below, and we will show the balance that you hold, to the extent applicable. The default fiat for the Stored Value Balance will be United States Dollars (“USD”).

[Ceka Cianci]

43 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Seems to me after reading some of the Tilia threads Link Link Link is that there is still a fair bit of confusion of how deep Tilia's tentacles are threaded through SL itself. First off, the same username and password are used to access Tilia and SL, and EVERONE has a Tilia account, regardless if one uses it to cash out or not.

Tilia by default has the same info on you as the Lab, which only stands to reason if they are to act as a money exchanger. At this point it is unknown if Tilia has a L$ wallet available for SL residents for user to user transactions but considering it is what they do for Unity, I would guess it is what is intended at some point. There should be nothing stopping them from seamlessly transitioning residents from the Lab to Tilia to take over the L$ transactions without even needing to notify the residents, since we already agreed to it through the additional ToS addendums we all validated upon first login after the changes back in 2019. 

I disagree with you Innula that they are separating R/L from the virtual because having to use the same account login for both, discounts that pretty clearly. They may not and probably don't care about my activities outside of the financial dealings but suspect they would have access to them if they needed to do any investigations.

Tilla has no personal information, just login information.. you cannot do anything with tilla until you personally add your personal information..

In other words , they don't have the same information other than my log in information.. I can't use my tilla wallet until they know I'm who I am..

 

[EliseAnne85]

12 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

I can't use my tilla wallet until they know I'm who I am..

I think I understand this now.  Tilia would need more information because they'd become like Paypal to us now if we opened a wallet or Stored Value Account with them.  To open a Paypal account, Paypal needs all our information.  So, then, so would Tilia need all our information.  

Is that correct?  

Edited April 9, 2023 by EliseAnne85