New Feature: Scripted Agent Estate Access Discussion

[Arielle Popstar]

50 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Recent poster said (paraphrasing) LL can do whatever they want with our data. While the TOS / TOC may not have a specific clause, I certainly hope LL would "never sell our data".

Well didn't they already through first handing it over to Tilia then the sale to the new overlords and then to JPMorgan? In each case the main value transferred was our personal data that allowed the new owner and stakeholders to benefit financially from us the product. From those big transfers it is but a small thing to benefit even more from other third parties,

[Ceka Cianci]

3 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Well didn't they already through first handing it over to Tilia then the sale to the new overlords and then to JPMorgan? In each case the main value transferred was our personal data that allowed the new owner and stakeholders to benefit financially from us the product. From those big transfers it is but a small thing to benefit even more from other third parties,

Wasn't the tilla one only if you used them for cashing out.. Those that don't aren't..

Because if you used Tilla you had to agree to the Tilla terms of service I believe, where if you didn't use tilla you didn't.

There was something like that awhile back.. hehehe

[Arielle Popstar]

2 hours ago, Jennifer Boyle said:

I'm surprised that the people talking about intellectual property rights have ignored that under the TOS LL has an unlimited license to do anything they please with anything that is uploaded into SL.

I don't think that it is unlimited but only up to the applicable laws of particular jurisdictions. A ToS agreement does not override those laws, regardless if we agreed to them. 

[Arielle Popstar]

5 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

Wasn't the tilla one only if you used them for cashing out.. Those that don't aren't..

Because if you used Tilla you had to agree to the Tilla terms of service I believe, where if you didn't use tilla you didn't.

There was something like that awhile back.. hehehe

Yes I think you're right while at the same time are not all sales powered by Tilia? Makes me think that even if they didn't have all our relevant data, they would still have everything we have supplied to LL in past including, e-mail addresses, IP addresses, and credit card info if one has purchased Lindens in past.

[Ceka Cianci]

Just now, Arielle Popstar said:

Yes I think you're right while at the same time are not all sales powered by Tilia? Makes me think that even if they didn't have all our relevant data, they would still have everything we have supplied to LL in past including, e-mail addresses, IP addresses, and credit card info if one has purchased Lindens in past.

I don't think they are.. If I buy lindens I'm dealing with LL and the lindex aren't I?

I think Tilla is after all that..LL owns the linden and sells those.. I think you have to have a tilla wallet before Tilla is involved, or have to be cashing out  before it becomes tilla's area..

 

[Arielle Popstar]

1 hour ago, Paul Hexem said:

 

To add on to what @Innula Zenovkasaid, we're not talking about breaking a little old content, we're talking about breaking a huge portion of current SL. Vehicles, pets, HUDs, mesh bodies, security systems, countless stuff we can't even think checks that info ... We might as well shut SL down if we go that route.

Ok so for the sake of argument LL doesn't do anything that blocks the vulnerabilities to third party data scraping and the GDPR gets involved and as well as giving LL a fine for allowing it, tells them to cease and desist allowing it to happen. Would SL have to shut down you think or would they find a suitable workaround?

[Rowan Amore]

7 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

I don't think they are.. If I buy lindens I'm dealing with LL and the lindex aren't I?

I think Tilla is after all that..LL owns the linden and sells those.. I think you have to have a tilla wallet before Tilla is involved, or have to be cashing out  before it becomes tilla's area..

 

Tilia is a subsidiary of Linden Lab that offers certain financial services to the Second Life community and helps Second Life comply with U.S. laws and regulations.

As of August 1, 2019, Tilia assumes management of your account's U.S. dollar balance in the form of your Tilia account. Tilia also handles process credit requests and payments made from your Tilia account. A Tilia account associated with your Second Life account is created automatically, and you do not need a separate username or password to access your Tilia account.

 

Do I need to use Tilia to buy Linden dollars?

No. Tilia is not involved in the Linden dollar purchase process. You can continue to use your payment method on file to buy Linden dollars and do not need to provide any additional personal information.

[Silent Mistwalker]

1 hour ago, M Peccable said:

I'm not sure that's right. Doesn't LL OWN everything that has been created and/or uploaded, instead of being licensed to LL by the creator? If so, since they own it, they really don't need any permissions from us.

It seems that would also call into question what we could do about it if "our" intellectual property  was scraped from SL and uploaded somewhere it shouldn't be. Since LL owns it, not us, wouldn't it have to be them taking any actions?

LL does not own, and does not claim ownership of user created content.

Quote

2. CONTENT LICENSES AND INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS

2.1 Linden Lab owns Intellectual Property Rights in the Service and the Linden Marks.

Linden Lab owns Intellectual Property Rights in and to the Service, including but not limited to the Linden Content, Software, the Servers, and the Websites related thereto, and in and to our trademarks, service marks, trade names, logos, domain names, taglines and trade dress (collectively, the "Linden Marks"). You acknowledge and agree that Linden Lab and its licensors own all right, title, and interest in and to the Service, including all Intellectual Property Rights therein, other than with respect to User Content.

Quote

2.3 You grant Linden Lab certain licenses to your User Content.

You retain any and all Intellectual Property Rights you already hold under applicable law in Content you upload, publish, and submit to or through the Servers, Websites, and other areas of the Service, subject to the rights, licenses, and other terms of this Agreement, including any underlying rights of other users or Linden Lab in Content that you may use or modify.

In connection with Content you upload, publish, or submit to any part of the Service, you affirm, represent, and warrant that you own or have all necessary Intellectual Property Rights, licenses, consents, and permissions to use and authorize Linden Lab and users of the Service to use the Content in the manner contemplated by the Service and these Terms.

[...]

Quote

2.4 You grant certain Content licenses to other users by submitting your Content to publicly accessible areas of the Service.

You agree that by uploading, publishing, or submitting any Content to any publicly accessible areas of the Service, you hereby grant other users of that aspect of the Service a non-exclusive license to access the User Content through the Service, and to use, reproduce, distribute, prepare derivative works of, display, and perform the Content on the Service solely as permitted by you through your interactions with the Service under these Terms. This license is referred to as the "User Content License," and the Content being licensed is referred to as "User Content." "Publicly accessible" areas of the Service are those areas that are accessible to other users of that aspect of the Service.

If you do not wish to grant users of the Service a User Content License, you agree that it is your obligation to avoid displaying or making available your Content to other users.

[...]

 

Terms of Service | Linden Lab

 

 

[M Peccable]

11 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

You acknowledge and agree that Linden Lab and its licensors own all right, title, and interest in and to the Service, including all Intellectual Property Rights therein, other than with respect to User Content.

Thank you. That's the important part that I missed.

[EliseAnne85]

2 hours ago, M Peccable said:

3 hours ago, EliseAnne85 said:

We give LL that permission when we agree.  It's unknown third parties taking it from our profiles I'm talking about.  

I'm not sure that's right. Doesn't LL OWN everything that has been created and/or uploaded, instead of being licensed to LL by the creator? If so, since they own it, they really don't need any permissions from us.

It seems that would also call into question what we could do about it if "our" intellectual property  was scraped from SL and uploaded somewhere it shouldn't be. Since LL owns it, not us, wouldn't it have to be them taking any actions?

I'm not sure our responses were in context.  Jennifer said LL has an unlimited license to do as they please with out content.  That doesn't mean they OWN it.  They own control over it.

This is the part of the TOS I'm sure Jennifer was referring to:

1.2 The Service exists only as long as and in the form that we may provide the Service, and all aspects of the Service, including your User Content, are subject to change or elimination.

Linden Lab has the right to change, limit access to, and/or eliminate any aspect(s), feature(s) or functionality of the Service (including your User Content) as it sees fit at any time without notice, and Linden Lab makes no commitment, express or implied, to maintain or continue, or to permit open access to, any aspect of the Service. You acknowledge that your use of the Service is subject to this risk and that you knowingly assume it and make your decisions to participate in the Service, contribute Content and spend your money accordingly.

Linden Lab may, but will not have the obligation to, display, maintain, or otherwise make use of, any of your User Content, and Linden Lab may, in its sole discretion, modify, delete, or otherwise make use of User Content without notice or any liability to you or any third party. Linden Lab reserves the right to treat User Content on the Service as content stored at the direction of users...

Edited April 9, 2023 by EliseAnne85

[Paul Hexem]

1 hour ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Ok so for the sake of argument LL doesn't do anything that blocks the vulnerabilities to third party data scraping and the GDPR gets involved and as well as giving LL a fine for allowing it, tells them to cease and desist allowing it to happen. Would SL have to shut down you think or would they find a suitable workaround?

Technically if you offer info, the person receiving it isn't in violation of the GDPR. Putting it in your profile is offering.

If LL had to change something, they're more likely to remove the ability to fill out profiles than break content on the whole grid.

[Jennifer Boyle]

2 hours ago, EliseAnne85 said:

I'm not sure our responses were in context.  Jennifer said LL has an unlimited license to do as they please with out content.  That doesn't mean they OWN it.  They own control over it.

This is the part of the TOS I'm sure Jennifer was referring to:

1.2 The Service exists only as long as and in the form that we may provide the Service, and all aspects of the Service, including your User Content, are subject to change or elimination.

Linden Lab has the right to change, limit access to, and/or eliminate any aspect(s), feature(s) or functionality of the Service (including your User Content) as it sees fit at any time without notice, and Linden Lab makes no commitment, express or implied, to maintain or continue, or to permit open access to, any aspect of the Service. You acknowledge that your use of the Service is subject to this risk and that you knowingly assume it and make your decisions to participate in the Service, contribute Content and spend your money accordingly.

Linden Lab may, but will not have the obligation to, display, maintain, or otherwise make use of, any of your User Content, and Linden Lab may, in its sole discretion, modify, delete, or otherwise make use of User Content without notice or any liability to you or any third party. Linden Lab reserves the right to treat User Content on the Service as content stored at the direction of users...

No, here's the part I was referring to:

"Except as otherwise described in any Additional Terms (such as a contest's official rules) which will govern the submission of your User Content, you hereby grant to Linden Lab, and you agree to grant to Linden Lab, the non-exclusive, unrestricted, unconditional, unlimited, worldwide, irrevocable, perpetual, and cost-free right and license to use, copy, record, distribute, reproduce, disclose, modify, display, publicly perform, transmit, publish, broadcast, translate, make derivative works of, and sell, re-sell or sublicense (through multiple levels)(with respect to each Product or otherwise on the Service as permitted by you through your interactions with the Service), and otherwise exploit in any manner whatsoever, all or any portion of your User Content (and derivative works thereof), for any purpose whatsoever in all formats, on or through any media, software, formula, or medium now known or hereafter developed, and with any technology or devices now known or hereafter developed, and to advertise, market, and promote the same. "

 

[Silent Mistwalker]

3 minutes ago, Jennifer Boyle said:

No, here's the part I was referring to:

"Except as otherwise described in any Additional Terms (such as a contest's official rules) which will govern the submission of your User Content, you hereby grant to Linden Lab, and you agree to grant to Linden Lab, the non-exclusive, unrestricted, unconditional, unlimited, worldwide, irrevocable, perpetual, and cost-free right and license to use, copy, record, distribute, reproduce, disclose, modify, display, publicly perform, transmit, publish, broadcast, translate, make derivative works of, and sell, re-sell or sublicense (through multiple levels)(with respect to each Product or otherwise on the Service as permitted by you through your interactions with the Service), and otherwise exploit in any manner whatsoever, all or any portion of your User Content (and derivative works thereof), for any purpose whatsoever in all formats, on or through any media, software, formula, or medium now known or hereafter developed, and with any technology or devices now known or hereafter developed, and to advertise, market, and promote the same. "

 

if you don't want to be able to buy products and services from other residents within SL or from the MP, then by all means do away with this particular clause.

[Jennifer Boyle]

2 hours ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

if you don't want to be able to buy products and services from other residents within SL or from the MP, then by all means do away with this particular clause.

I wasn't complaining about it. I was just saying what it is. I am fine with it. 

[Arielle Popstar]

7 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

Do I need to use Tilia to buy Linden dollars?

No. Tilia is not involved in the Linden dollar purchase process. You can continue to use your payment method on file to buy Linden dollars and do not need to provide any additional personal information.

Somebody is lying. My last purchase of Lindens was paid to Tilia.

 

[Alwin Alcott]

19 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Somebody is lying. My last purchase of Lindens was paid to Tilia.

 

Tillia is only the receiver of the money because it's the cashier of LL. LL get paid by them. LL provides the L$
ALL L$ transactions with LL are by a specific Linden ( commerce or stipend), not Tillia.

The question Rowan anwered to , and you take wrongly out of context, was "do i need Tillia " - meaning, do have to go through the identification process.: that answer came directly out of the Q/A of LL.
Nobody lied, you missed the context.

 

[Love Zhaoying]

You don't need Tillia, 'til ya need Tillia, then you do need Tillia, for ya till.

[Arielle Popstar]

4 hours ago, Alwin Alcott said:

The question Rowan anwered to , and you take wrongly out of context, was "do i need Tillia " - meaning, do have to go through the identification process.: that answer came directly out of the Q/A of LL.
Nobody lied, you missed the context.

With due respect Alwin, Rowan was attempting to validate Ceka's point about Tilia not being involved in Linden purchases and yet they clearly are as shown by my credit card receipt. To do that transaction, they need both my real name as well as my Second life name. So they are involved and they know my details which was what I initially claimed. 

The link Rowan posted is misleading if not outright wrong.

[Rowan Amore]

4 hours ago, Alwin Alcott said:

Tillia is only the receiver of the money because it's the cashier of LL. LL get paid by them. LL provides the L$
ALL L$ transactions with LL are by a specific Linden ( commerce or stipend), not Tillia.

The question Rowan anwered to , and you take wrongly out of context, was "do i need Tillia " - meaning, do have to go through the identification process.: that answer came directly out of the Q/A of LL.
Nobody lied, you missed the context.

 

That's how I've always understood how Tilia works.  We still purchase and sell Ls from other residents.  The transactions may pass through Tilia which does handle the money aspect of SL but unless you want to cash out, there is no other info required aside from what you provided LL when you registered for an SL account or added payment info.  Since Tilia was created by LL, it only makes sense that they would have that info.  

Cashing out to RL money obviously requires Tilia to gather more information to verify your identity. You are not required to provide that info simply to.purchase Ls with your PIOF.

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Rowan Amore said:

That's how I've always understood how Tilia works.  We still purchase and sell Ls from other residents.  The transactions may pass through Tilia which does handle the money aspect of SL but unless you want to cash out, there is no other info required aside from what you provided LL when you registered for an SL account or added payment info.  Since Tilia was created by LL, it only makes sense that they would have that info.  

Cashing out to RL money obviously requires Tilia to gather more information to verify your identity. You are not required to provide that info simply to.purchase Ls with your PIOF.

Remind me, we did have to accept Tillia T&C when it first onboarded, didn't we?

[Rowan Amore]

11 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Remind me, we did have to accept Tillia T&C when it first onboarded, didn't we?

When you add a payment method, you agree to Tilia's Tos as they are the handlers for all monies in SL and have been for several years.  Nothing new there.   The point I was making is that Tilia has no more information than LL has or had about you when doing so.   2 entities under the same umbrella.  The only time Tilia will require more info than your standard account on SL is when you cash out.

[Love Zhaoying]

Just now, Rowan Amore said:

When you add a payment method, you agree to Tilia's Tos as they are the handlers for all monies in SL and have been for several years.  Nothing new there.   The point I was making is that Tilia has no more information than LL has or had about you when doing so.   2 entities under the same umbrella.  The only time Tilia will require more info than your standard account on SL is when you cash out.

Yes, I understood your point. 
I was just trying to settle in my own mind, while agreeing with you, that my own only interaction with Tillia may have been if / when they asked me to accept some T&C. (I do not cash out, so that area does not apply to me.)

[Rowan Amore]

5 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Yes, I understood your point. 
I was just trying to settle in my own mind, while agreeing with you, that my own only interaction with Tillia may have been if / when they asked me to accept some T&C. (I do not cash out, so that area does not apply to me.)

When adding payment info, you'll see this at the very bottom of the page...

By clicking the "Add" button you agree to allow Tilia LLC, its affiliates, and its payment processor to save your card information above as a 

secure token

 to be used for future transactions. Tilia's notification policy can be found in our Terms of Service.

Simply creating an SL account does not require acceptance of anything Tilia related AFAIK...

Edited April 9, 2023 by Rowan Amore

[Alwin Alcott]

1 hour ago, Arielle Popstar said:

With due respect Alwin, Rowan was attempting to validate Ceka's point about Tilia not being involved in Linden purchases and yet they clearly are as shown by my credit card receipt. To do that transaction, they need both my real name as well as my Second life name. So they are involved and they know my details which was what I initially claimed. 

The link Rowan posted is misleading if not outright wrong.

they are not more involved as Paypal or CC company is when you buy something at Amazon or any other online seller.
 

[EliseAnne85]

3 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

With due respect Alwin, Rowan was attempting to validate Ceka's point about Tilia not being involved in Linden purchases and yet they clearly are as shown by my credit card receipt. To do that transaction, they need both my real name as well as my Second life name. So they are involved and they know my details which was what I initially claimed. 

The link Rowan posted is misleading if not outright wrong.

Tilia is the licensed money transmitter though, so they have you on an AI database somewhere.  If you need to cash out, you may need to present a Driver's License, etc., and other things to prove who you are at Tilia's sole discretion.  This is the life of money - fiats and cryptocurrencies and virtual tokens - on the internet.  

It's Tilia, with one 1 L and two i's.  T-i-l-i-a.  

Edited April 9, 2023 by Quartz Mole