New Feature: Scripted Agent Estate Access Discussion

[Coffee Pancake]

1 minute ago, Paul Hexem said:

Don't need luck, it's already done. Just a single click solved the problem.

.. and because you made a big deal about it here, opened the door for anyone to abuse report every avatar seen with you on your parcel as being an unregistered bot, that's been intentionally set to evade the newest shiniest policy update.

Also, keep in mind LL don't punish the one naughty account, they punish the account owner.

So, moving to mainland when ?

[Silent Mistwalker]

7 hours ago, Gwin LeShelle said:

I didn't knew either but as it seems it's just another example of some people taking SL way too serious XD 

In the case of Belli, the Lab is the HOA.

[Silent Mistwalker]

2 hours ago, Paul Hexem said:

For the sake of clarity: my point is less that bots need to be allowed and more that LL just banned all my alts from my own parcel without input from me.

Other estate owners will do it to their renters. It's not a question of if, but when and who.

Without parcel level controls, this is a terrible idea.

The truth is, I only ever used my bot to manage some DJ stuff, and I don't DJ much anymore. I've just lost the ability to test or configure it unless I go buy new land. But if I'm affected, we know other people will be too. 

I'm a little confused. Why would you have all of your alts as registered agents? I'm sure you realize that by making the alts registered agents, you've limited the usage of that account to non-personal use so you should be able to see why I ask. Even if all I am doing is setting poses using an alt, I do not register them as bots for the simple reason that they are not bots. 

I know you have better sense than this Paul. Did you even consider adding the alts to the whitelist on your parcel?

You do have options.

[Paul Hexem]

9 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Uh-oh! Patch was watching you..now he's probably going to visit you and cut off your Bot's tail or something.

 

7 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

.. and because you made a big deal about it here, opened the door for anyone to abuse report every avatar seen with you on your parcel as being an unregistered bot, that's been intentionally set to evade the newest shiniest policy update.

Also, keep in mind LL don't punish the one naughty account, they punish the account owner.

So, moving to mainland when ?

 

4 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

I'm a little confused. Why would you have all of your alts as registered agents? I'm sure you realize that by making the alts registered agents, you've limited the usage of that account to non-personal use so you should be able to see why I ask. Even if all I am doing is setting poses using an alt, I do not register them as bots for the simple reason that they are not bots. 

I know you have better sense than this Paul. Did you even consider adding the alts to the whitelist on your parcel?

You do have options.

Again, my bots are as much alts as bots and could get away with not being registered to begin with. I only registered them because doing so didn't hurt anything. Now it does, so I have to change it. Not a big deal. @Patch Lindencan investigate all he wants. 

The point is still that this is a stupid knee jerk reaction that if it affects me, and is so easy for me to circumvent, is going to affect others and be just as easy for them to circumvent, and not all of them will be as honest as me.

Messing things up for honest people might make you feel better, but does nothing to solve the problem.

[Love Zhaoying]

6 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

I'm a little confused. Why would you have all of your alts as registered agents? I'm sure you realize that by making the alts registered agents, you've limited the usage of that account to non-personal use so you should be able to see why I ask. Even if all I am doing is setting poses using an alt, I do not register them as bots for the simple reason that they are not bots. 

I know you have better sense than this Paul. Did you even consider adding the alts to the whitelist on your parcel?

You do have options.

I am interested in seeing Paul's answer, I assumed he is using some automation software when them when not using them as "alts".

[Galaxy Littlepaws]

7 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

I'm a little confused. Why would you have all of your alts as registered agents? I'm sure you realize that by making the alts registered agents, you've limited the usage of that account to non-personal use so you should be able to see why I ask. Even if all I am doing is setting poses using an alt, I do not register them as bots for the simple reason that they are not bots. 

I know you have better sense than this Paul. Did you even consider adding the alts to the whitelist on your parcel?

You do have options.

I checked last night to see if I could add a bot to the parcel access list on Belli for curiousity's sake, it seems that's blocked out as well as all but the "block list" options on that tab there. So, due to not even being an option nobody can whitelist any avatars on the parcel level on Belli.

Edited March 31, 2023 by Galaxy Littlepaws
clarity

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Paul Hexem said:

The point is still that this is a stupid knee jerk reaction that if it affects me, and is so easy for me to circumvent, is going to affect others and be just as easy for them to circumvent, and not all of them will be as honest as me.

I think most people aren't going to register their Alts as "Scripted Agents". 

But, this thread is indeed shining a light on other impacts besides "doing away with roaming bots that steal our cookies".

[Qie Niangao]

I gather the only whitelist that matters now, while the bot ban is at Estate scope, is the Estate's "Allowed" list.

[Ceka Cianci]

3 minutes ago, Galaxy Littlepaws said:

I checked last night to see if I could add a bot to the parcel access list on Belli for curiousity's sake, it seems that's blocked out as well as all but the "block list" options on that tab there. So, due to not even being an option nobody can whitelist any avatars on the parcel level on Belli.

I went to ban someone from my linden land in Belli and couldn't.. The only one I've been able to was Gov linden for some reason I can't even remember..

We're pretty much renter level and have to use groups and orbs..

[Paul Hexem]

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

But, this thread is indeed shining a light on other impacts besides "doing away with roaming bots that steal our cookies".

Exactly.

I sometimes used them to macro group or land functions for me via a bot viewer. Not something that needs to be done often anymore, but since they were technically a bot at those times, I figured why not. Like I said, it didn't hurt anything.

Now that it does, the situation has changed.

But, again: my specific use case isn't really the point. The point is, the setting is likely to affect people, and it's going to encourage even more people to break the rules. 

[Silent Mistwalker]

42 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

The point is still that this is a stupid knee jerk reaction that if it affects me, and is so easy for me to circumvent, is going to affect others and be just as easy for them to circumvent, and not all of them will be as honest as me.

What, exactly, are you circumventing by having your alts as registered agents? 

Or, what, exactly, are you circumventing by NOT having your alts as registered agents?

There will always be those bad actors who will always do something just because they can. There is nothing anyone can do to stop it except for the bad actors. 

If people want LL to start patrolling the grid for violations, don't complain when prices start going sky-high to cover the cost of patrolling the grid. You can also kiss SL goodbye at that point because it will not last long.

[Silent Mistwalker]

47 minutes ago, Galaxy Littlepaws said:

I checked last night to see if I could add a bot to the parcel access list on Belli for curiousity's sake, it seems that's blocked out as well as all but the "block list" options on that tab there. So, due to not even being an option nobody can whitelist any avatars on the parcel level on Belli.

Belli isn't the only land in SL. Bots don't land just in Belli. 

I'm not speaking just about Belli.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

36 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

But, again: my specific use case isn't really the point. The point is, the setting is likely to affect people, and it's going to encourage even more people to break the rules.

This sounds a bit like "When they outlaw bots, only outlaws will have bots."

Or, maybe more humorously, "forcing me to ask my neighbour's permission before borrowing their car means that I will have no alternative but to steal it."

I agree that a parcel-level control is probably going to be desirable or even necessary in the long run. But any rule or regulation creates, almost by definition, a class of people who are going to break that regulation. Limiting the inappropriate use of a function such as bots isn't going to end all such uses, but it does mean that those unwilling to break rules will comply, and it provides an enforcement tool to LL that can be deployed against those who choose not to.

[Galaxy Littlepaws]

4 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

Belli isn't the only land in SL. Bots don't land just in Belli. 

I'm not speaking just about Belli.

Ah okay, you were talking to Paul Hexem in that post, so I assumed you were and commented based on what I quoted specifically.

I do still wish it could be bypassed or set on the parcel level if that's what a person wants, but I can't test if that's possible anywhere else, and from what I'm seeing others say it may not be.

[Rowan Amore]

5 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

"When they outlaw bots, only outlaws will have bots."

Well, that's exactly the point?  They won't be registering them as scripted agents therefore making all this an effort in futility. 

Edited March 31, 2023 by Rowan Amore

[Love Zhaoying]

4 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I agree that a parcel-level control is probably going to be desirable or even necessary in the long run. But any rule or regulation creates, almost by definition, a class of people who are going to break that regulation. Limiting the inappropriate use of a function such as bots isn't going to end all such uses, but it does mean that those unwilling to break rules will comply, and it provides an enforcement tool to LL that can be deployed against those who choose not to.

I would like to take it one step further.  Any "bad actors" already aren't registering their bots as Scripted Agents. Why would they?

Conversely and thusly, there is not that much reason to think that any TRULY "bad actors" will now deregister / stop registering their Scripted Agents.  Why would they have registered in the first place?

[Silent Mistwalker]

This is the Access Tab under About Land for a parcel. Note the section for Allowed Residents. Here you can enter your botalts so that the estate bot ban doesn't affect YOUR bots on YOUR land.

🤔

 

Edit: Mainlanders may or may not have access to use that list. Not having access to such features on mainland is one of the many, many reasons I haven't lived on mainland since 2006.

 

 

Edited March 31, 2023 by Silent Mistwalker

[Rick Nightingale]

I don't understand the issue with not registering accounts that are mostly alts, and occasionally bots, as scripted agents.

Per the TOS https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Scripted_Agent_Policy :

Quote

If you own a Second Life account primarily operating as a Scripted Agent, you must specify this on the Scripted Agent Status page.

My emboldening.

I used to log in alts with a bot viewer occasionally. Never felt the need to have them registered since they are mostly alts, not bots.

Edited March 31, 2023 by Rick Nightingale

[Scylla Rhiadra]

3 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Well, that's exactly the point?  They won't be registering them as scripted agents therefore making all this an effort in futility. 

That assumes that everyone currently using bots will be willing to now break the rules in order to do so, and I just don't think that's the case.

This has already had a very demonstrable and quantifiable impact on the bot-site-that-cannot-be-named, precisely because (to their credit), they don't want to break rules.

I think Love actually put it pretty well:
 

4 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I would like to take it one step further.  Any "bad actors" already aren't registering their bots as Scripted Agents. Why would they?

 

[Paul Hexem]

8 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

There will always be those bad actors who will always do something just because they can. There is nothing anyone can do to stop it except for the bad actors.

 

4 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

This sounds a bit like "When they outlaw bots, only outlaws will have bots."

Or, maybe more humorously, "forcing me to ask my neighbour's permission before borrowing their car means that I will have no alternative but to steal it."

I agree that a parcel-level control is probably going to be desirable or even necessary in the long run. But any rule or regulation creates, almost by definition, a class of people who are going to break that regulation. Limiting the inappropriate use of a function such as bots isn't going to end all such uses, but it does mean that those unwilling to break rules will comply, and it provides an enforcement tool to LL that can be deployed against those who choose not to.

There's a difference between making a good rule that's straightforward to enforce and making murky knee jerk rules that actively encourage violations.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Just now, Paul Hexem said:

 

There's a difference between making a good rule that's straightforward to enforce and making murky knee jerk rules that actively encourage violations.

Ok, so what would a good rule look like?

[Silent Mistwalker]

1 minute ago, Paul Hexem said:

 

There's a difference between making a good rule that's straightforward to enforce and making murky knee jerk rules that actively encourage violations.

All rules actively encourage violations by bad actors.

This wasn't a kneejerk reaction on LL's part. The bot situation is something that has been brought up and discussed numerous times over the years both on the forum and inworld. It's been a long time coming and now that it's finally here, residents are making kneejerk reactions to others taking back control of their SL.

The rules were already in place. Now LL has given us a tool we can use to help them enforce those rules. Win, win.

[Rowan Amore]

15 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

This is the Access Tab under About Land for a parcel. Note the section for Allowed Residents. Here you can enter your botalts so that the estate bot ban doesn't affect YOUR bots on YOUR land.

🤔

 

Edit: Mainlanders may or may not have access to use that list. Not having access to such features on mainland is one of the many, many reasons I haven't lived on mainland since 2006.

 

 

If you're renting on a private estate, the owner needs to add your bots to the estate whitelist.   There is no per parcel whitelisting of bots.  That's what part of the debate is about.   The only people who have control per the new anti bot setting are private estate owners.

Edited March 31, 2023 by Rowan Amore

[Skyler Pancake]

10 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

This is the Access Tab under About Land for a parcel. Note the section for Allowed Residents. Here you can enter your botalts so that the estate bot ban doesn't affect YOUR bots on YOUR land.

🤔

 

Edit: Mainlanders may or may not have access to use that list. Not having access to such features on mainland is one of the many, many reasons I haven't lived on mainland since 2006.

 

 

Doesn't work. The bot ban is at an estate level, which means that parcel controls can't override it. If the estate has the no bot setting active, such as Linden Home regions, there is NO WAY for an account marked as a scripted agent to enter that estate. Thus invalidating the rights of those who do own and live there.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Just now, Rowan Amore said:

If you're renting on a private estate, the owner needs to add your bots to the estate whitelist.   There is no per parcel whitelisting of bots.  That's what part of the debate is about.   The only people who have control per the new anti bot setting is a private estate owner.

I totally agree that this is a problem that needs to be rectified. Adding parcel-level controls will also extend this to the Mainland.