New Feature: Scripted Agent Estate Access Discussion

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 minute ago, Skyler Pancake said:

Doesn't work. The bot ban is at an estate level, which means that parcel controls can't override it. If the estate has the no bot setting active, such as Linden Home regions, there is NO WAY for an account marked as a scripted agent to enter that estate. Thus invalidating the rights of those who do own and live there.

The addition of parcel-level controls would mean that estate owners can remove the ban on bots and let individuals choose that option for themselves.

Or . . . they leave them in place, and renters make a decision about whether that is a condition they are willing to live with, just as they do now with regard to countless other decisions and choices made at the estate level.

[Paul Hexem]

Just now, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Ok, so what would a good rule look like?

If it were me, I'd start by putting more teeth into the previously mentioned privacy policy. Right now it still basically says you're on your own to ask them to take your info down, go follow the EU privacy laws.

Here's a metaphor of my own:

Would you keep your car registered if you knew someone would come take it away from you every time a stranger was driving drunk somewhere you've never been?

2 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

Now LL has given us a tool we can use to help them enforce those rules.

They didn't, though. They only gave it to region owners, and made it so it hurts everybody, not just the data collectors. 

[Arielle Popstar]

10 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

 

There's a difference between making a good rule that's straightforward to enforce and making murky knee jerk rules that actively encourage violations.

I don't see the problem here as it is mostly geared towards those who are operating an army of bots but not those who might be logging in an occasional alt on a bot viewer, for which I see no clear cut definition anyway. Is a text viewer a Bot viewer? What about Radegast or Metabolt? 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 minute ago, Paul Hexem said:

If it were me, I'd start by putting more teeth into the previously mentioned privacy policy. Right now it still basically says you're on your own to ask them to take your info down, go follow the EU privacy laws.

I agree about the need to actually enforce existing as well as new regulations.

The new guidelines on the use of personal data, and more generally those on scripted agents (not just bots!) provide a set of general principles. The first recourse will be, of course, to ask an offender to remove the data. If that doesn't work, residents can invoke these new guidelines in requesting an intervention from LL. Those newly articulated principles give LL the justification they need to act. They don't mean that LL is going to proactively seek out violators, but they also don't mean that we are on our own: a violation of the new policies is effectively a violation of the ToS.

[Paul Hexem]

1 minute ago, Arielle Popstar said:

I don't see the problem here as it is mostly geared towards those who are operating an army of bots but not those who might be logging in an occasional alt on a bot viewer, for which I see no clear cut definition anyway. Is a text viewer a Bot viewer? What about Radegast or Metabolt? 

The viewer doesn't really matter.

The problem is, this is a setting that's going to hurt at least some people who are trying to be honest, and they'll have to choose between discontinuing something that might have serious previous investment and is allowed, or breaking the rules, while still not really stopping the people that we really want to stop.

[Love Zhaoying]

6 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Is a text viewer a Bot viewer? What about Radegast or Metabolt? 

..or Lumiya?

[Scylla Rhiadra]

12 minutes ago, Skyler Pancake said:

Which is fine. What isn't fine with me is Patch Linden deciding, without notice or discussion, that the land I am paying for no longer is open to accounts that are providing an actual service and helping to promote that land.

I was a bit surprised about the blanket application of the bot ban to Belli myself, although in hindsight there is a logic to it, given how tightly LL regulates the place. There have, I gather, been complaints about the appearance of bots in private lots in Belli, and that must also have been motivation.

And I'd agree that the resultant loss of your home finder is an unfortunate spin-off; it's one of the services you were providing to which I not merely had no objection, but thought was a boon.

Come join me on the Mainland, I guess?

Edited March 31, 2023 by Scylla Rhiadra

[EliseAnne85]

31 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

36 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

"When they outlaw bots, only outlaws will have bots."

Well, that's exactly the point?  They won't be registering them as scripted agents therefore making all this an effort in futility. 

Edited 9 minutes ago by Rowan Amore

If they don't register them as scripted agents, they probably would not harvest the data and put up a website at least because then they'd out themselves that they are not scripted agents and are therefore not complying with the rules.  So, it would reduce "spam" in that sense.  

Rest of my post is general and not directed to either Scylla nor Rowan specifically:

I was wondering about these TERMS in the TOS.  Some of them seem to me to be about bots, plus I think the TOS could use some updating about BOTS/Scripted Agents:  

(ii) Post or transmit unsolicited or unauthorized advertising, or promotional materials, that are in the nature of "junk mail," "spam," "chain letters," "pyramid schemes," or any other form of solicitation that Linden Lab considers to be of such nature (CURRENT BOTS DID THIS - spam, promotion)

(iii) Engage in malicious or DISRUPTIVE (CURRENT BOTS WERE DISRUPTIVE) conduct that impedes or interferes with other users' normal use of or enjoyment of the Service;

(iv) Use any cheats, mods, hacks, or any other unauthorized techniques or unauthorized third-party software to cheat in any competition or game (BOTS DO THIS - may need update here) that may be offered on the Service, or to otherwise disrupt or modify the Service or the experience of any users on the Service (CURRENT BOTS DID THIS)

 

 

Edited March 31, 2023 by EliseAnne85

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Just now, EliseAnne85 said:

If they don't register them as scripted agents, they probably would not harvest the data and put up a website at least because then they'd out themselves that they are not scripted agents and are therefore not complying with the rules.  So, it would reduce "spam" in that sense.

I think that this is very much to the point, Elise. Most bad-faith or non-allowed use of personal information ("PII" in LL's formulation) will be manifested visibly somewhere, probably online, or perhaps in a region or in a product on the Marketplace (which is why I find it interesting that they have redefined "scripted agent" to include non-bot applications as well). LL has now empowered themselves to act against the operations in-world that are collecting the PII used for such visible articulations of a given project.

[Arielle Popstar]

6 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

The viewer doesn't really matter.

The problem is, this is a setting that's going to hurt at least some people who are trying to be honest, and they'll have to choose between discontinuing something that might have serious previous investment and is allowed, or breaking the rules, while still not really stopping the people that we really want to stop.

I would have to say it does from how you are presenting the problem or if I log in my alts at the same time as myself to modify couple pose as an example, I would be at that point using it as an scripted bot even if it is on a full viewer.

[M Peccable]

3 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

The viewer doesn't really matter.

The problem is, this is a setting that's going to hurt at least some people who are trying to be honest, and they'll have to choose between discontinuing something that might have serious previous investment and is allowed, or breaking the rules, while still not really stopping the people that we really want to stop.

I could not have said it better myself. Plus, this action has created a mob mentality towards making everyone believe that all roaming bots are bad, no matter how hard they try to avoid people, no matter how honest the owner is, and no matter what the purpose of the bot is.

This impacts me probably harder than most other responsible bot owners. If I chose to be dishonest I could unregister my bot, but that would be just a ticking time bomb anyway. No thanks, I would rather see my flagship product die a slow death.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

2 minutes ago, M Peccable said:

a mob mentality

🙄

[Istelathis]

A possible solution for some current bot owners in SL is to use the same one that opensim does, allow server side NPCs to take on the role for bots.  Essentially in OpenSIm an NPC is created from a script in an object on the server, it would be limited to the parcel that the object has been rezzed on.  

http://opensimulator.org/wiki/OSSLNPC

The benefit of these, over animesh is that they do not count against the Li of the NPC owner.  They are highly customizable, and easy to make.  It would likewise open a new market for NPC scripters that provide various menu options for whatever use one could imagine.

A counter argument would be that they could be abused in sandboxes and parcels that allow people to rez objects, but I would argue so can scripts in objects that are allowed to be rezzed in such areas.  

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

4 minutes ago, M Peccable said:

a mob mentality

🙄

"Today is a good day to die." - Worf

Oops, the "die a slow death" quote wasn't in your post. Sorry!

Edited March 31, 2023 by Love Zhaoying

[M Peccable]

Just now, Love Zhaoying said:

"Today is a good day to die." - Worf

See what I mean?

[Love Zhaoying]

Just now, M Peccable said:

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

"Today is a good day to die." - Worf

See what I mean?

Sorry if my sense of humor does not match the seriousness of the situation for you.

[Paul Hexem]

2 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

I would have to say it does from how you are presenting the problem or if I log in my alts at the same time as myself to modify couple pose as an example, I would be at that point using it as an scripted bot even if it is on a full viewer.

Well. That's exactly why the viewer doesn't matter. A bot can work on any viewer. I could attach a prim to myself and data harvest all the same info as the bad bots, with the LL viewer.

That's why I keep saying we need clear, enforceable policies, not knee jerk bans.

3 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

🙄

He is right, though. 

[Arielle Popstar]

3 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

"Today is a good day to die." - Worf

2 minutes ago, M Peccable said:

See what I mean?

 

That's a forum bot, pay no mind.

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Paul Hexem said:

A bot can work on any viewer.

Today I learned!

(I guess I can see it with standard Windows automation software..)

[M Peccable]

Just now, Arielle Popstar said:

That's a forum bot, pay no mind.

If you're being serious, then lol!

[Rick Nightingale]

It might surprise someone to know I too have a product which relies on bots, that I've sold to the vehicle riding, flying and sailing community for years. One difference: My bots don't TP to parcels unasked for. In fact they have to be specifically summoned by a control HUD, by the user, when needed for a specific purpose. They don't gather anyone's data, or anything else for that matter and only land where specifically told to by the owner.

Mine too will suffer from this though, despite that they are totally benign in action. Such is life. We still should have the ability to control access to bots properly.

Edited March 31, 2023 by Rick Nightingale

[EliseAnne85]

16 minutes ago, M Peccable said:

I could not have said it better myself. Plus, this action has created a mob mentality towards making everyone believe that all roaming bots are bad, no matter how hard they try to avoid people, no matter how honest the owner is, and no matter what the purpose of the bot is.

This impacts me probably harder than most other responsible bot owners. If I chose to be dishonest I could unregister my bot, but that would be just a ticking time bomb anyway. No thanks, I would rather see my flagship product die a slow death.

LL could add another option, PIOF Scripted Agent with a fee or something like that, for those who are running a business in SL via bots.  

 

Edited March 31, 2023 by EliseAnne85

[EliseAnne85]

20 minutes ago, M Peccable said:

Plus, this action has created a mob mentality

No, not really.  It's just that there are many in SL who don't read the forum nor how to work everything.  It's better to have it have to be set to ON for the general peace of SL. 

[M Peccable]

Just now, EliseAnne85 said:

No, not really.  It's just that there are many in SL who don't read the forum nor how to work everything.  It's better to have it have to be set to ON for the general peace of SL. 

I am on the receiving end of that mentality. Trust me, it's real.

[Paul Hexem]

8 minutes ago, EliseAnne85 said:

LL could add another option, PIOF Scripted Agent with a fee or something like that, for those who are running a business in SL via bots.  

 

Something like that is a great idea, assuming it comes with tangible benefits like overriding the bot ban on Linden owned land, for example. Otherwise you're just paying money to be banned.

Edited March 31, 2023 by Paul Hexem