New Second Life terms and conditions

[Love Zhaoying]

"Coming soon, to a Lab Gab or Pinned Post near you!"

[Coffee Pancake]

1 hour ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

It's not forced upon you. If you don't like the terms then don't use the service.

That's a bit like telling someone who doesn't like their teeth that they don't have to eat with them, no one is forcing them.

The practical reality is we're all invested in SL in various ways and we are absolutely forced to accept the new deal. Whatever that might be.

I have thousands of US$ worth of land (at current market rates) which would be forfeit if I didn't accept the terms, I couldn't even sell my stake and walk away without first accepting it. The same is especially true for people who have private estates or businesses or inventory or friends.

[sirhc DeSantis]

This seems to be being handled as well as the great big 'all your IP are belong to us' fiasco from back in the day. A little input from the Company addressing concerns would be nice.

[ChinRey]

5 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

2) People will declare they are leaving over this, probably to return.

Oh yes, there will be lots of empty threats and complaints.

However, here's a very real one. I have no need for the L$ I make from my sales in Second Life. So if I can't cash out the income I make here, I have no reason to keep them open and lots of reasons to close them down. This is the situation for many, probably most, merchant-builders and others who do business in SL. We need to have a guarantee that we can actually access the money we make here. If LL can't provide a plausible guarantee, they can just forget it.

 

2 hours ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

It may be harsh but you have to agree to the terms. It's not forced upon you. If you don't like the terms then don't use the service.

In some situations it is forced upon us. I have 2000 US dollars on my SL account right now and also quite a lot of L$ I haven't sold yet. This is all money I made before the new TOS was introduced. To reclaim that money I'm forced to agree to the new TOS and that is simply not acceptable.

With that being said, I'm sure the ummm... unfortunate phrasing ... is a glitch. It is not in LL's or Tilia's own interests to keep it. Once rumours start to spread about them refusing to pay out with no reason (and rember, those rumopurs don't have to be true), their reputation will be shot to pieces. The SL economy take a serious hit of course but, probably more important to them, they can just forget about selling Tilia as a payment option for other platforms.

[EliseAnne85]

4 hours ago, animats said:

There's an opportunity here for Linden Lab and Tilia to make it clear that they handle customer's money properly, unlike those crypto metaverse guys. Search for "crypto withdrawals halted" to see the scale of the problem in crypto land. That's why "sole discretion" is a red flag.

I also saw a "we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone at our sole discretion" clause in there.  So, that's basically what it is too.  

[ChinRey]

3 minutes ago, EliseAnne85 said:

I also saw a "we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone at our sole discretion" clause in there.  So, that's basically what it is too.  

That's actually fair enough although hardly friendly and possibly not very well thought out.

[EliseAnne85]

Just now, ChinRey said:

That's actually fair enough although hardly friendly and possibly not very well thought out.

They are based in Hollywood, that's probably why.  I think that's where that law started.  LOL

[Ceka Cianci]

Are these out now?

Usually a contract change comes with having to say yes or no in the viewer on login.

[EliseAnne85]

20 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

Are these out now?

Usually a contract change comes with having to say yes or no in the viewer on login.

Did you receive a message in your notices area?

I think it said we don't have to do anything we just accept the new terms by staying or leave by October 31st as that when the new TOS begins.  Sorry, I have a headache so I don't know if I got that exactly right.  

Edited October 26, 2022 by EliseAnne85

[Ceka Cianci]

9 minutes ago, EliseAnne85 said:

Did you receive a message in your notices area?

I think it said we don't have to do anything we just accept the new terms by staying or leave by October 31st as that when the new TOS begins.  Sorry, I have a headache so I don't know if I got that exactly right.  

In the viewer notices?

For me it's not a big deal  because I'm probably gonna say yes and keep going.. But odd that they change it up from having to see it and  maybe never seeing it..

Silly rabbits, trix are for kids.. hehehe

 

[Paul Hexem]

4 hours ago, Charalyne Blackwood said:

Is there a short version that's not a bunch of legalese?

See, what they're saying is [moderator redacted], so I'd [moderator redacted] any money you have in the system.

My personal opinion is [moderator redacted].

Edited October 26, 2022 by Paul Hexem

[Rowan Amore]

11 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

In the viewer notices?

For me it's not a big deal  because I'm probably gonna say yes and keep going.. But odd that they change it up from having to see it and  maybe never seeing it..

Silly rabbits, trix are for kids.. hehehe

 

It goes.into effect Oct. 31 so I would assume we'll get the notice at log in on that date, not before.

[EliseAnne85]

14 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

In the viewer notices?

For me it's not a big deal  because I'm probably gonna say yes and keep going.. But odd that they change it up from having to see it and  maybe never seeing it..

Silly rabbits, trix are for kids.. hehehe

 

I think that's what it's called.  You know, where once you log in and are inside the viewer and in your NOTICES area - the area where events or other info from groups go.  That's where mine was but it might have been sent by a friend.  I didn't take notice who sent it.  No pun intended.

Edited October 26, 2022 by EliseAnne85

[Ceka Cianci]

1 minute ago, Rowan Amore said:

It goes.into effect Oct. 31 so I would assume we'll get the notice at log in on that date, not before.

Oh ok, I thought it was something that was already sent out..

[Rowan Amore]

Just now, Ceka Cianci said:

Oh ok, I thought it was something that was already sent out..

No, just a blog post...

 

[Innula Zenovka]

What was the previous wording about cashing out?    I can understand why Tilia want to insist they have the discretion not to allow cashing out under certain circumstances -- if they suspect fraud, for example, or other criminal activity, or if funds have been transferred to an account in error -- and I can understand why their legal advisors might think it advisable to cover themselves for all eventualities rather than try to enumerate all possible reasons they might delay or refuse to allow a withdrawal.   

There may be other reasons, too -- I'm not familiar with US banking law, but it may be that by granting themselves this kind of discretion they make it clear that they don't fall  into some particular legal categories that could turn them, in the eyes of the law and financial regulators,  into something they don't want to be.     I don't know, but I can easily imagine how that could be the case.

As far as I'm concerned  it really comes down to whether I think Tilia, J P Morgan or Linden Lab are likely use these clauses to swindle me out of either my L$ or my US$ balances.     Since I don't think that's particularly likely, I'm not giving the matter any further thought.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Innula Zenovka

[Lindal Kidd]

1 hour ago, ChinRey said:

We need to have a guarantee that we can actually access the money we make here. If LL can't provide a plausible guarantee, they can just forget it.

This. Totally this.

A little over a year ago I sold my Mainland and cashed out most of my accumulated L$. I didn't see THIS coming, specifically, but I did see how LL was nibbling away, bit by bit, at all the ways people could actually make any money on the platform. This is more of the same. Unless LL changes course to make things more attractive to creators and entrepreneurs, I will not start another SL business venture, and will not put in more money than I would mind losing.

SL is no longer the "nation of shopkeepers" that built it; it's just another Sims game.

[Chic Aeon]

Thanks for this thread, I was sort of happy about the JP Morgan part of the puzzle. I did read the new Tilia TOS which was way beyond what it used to be.  I was thinking I "might" be able to cash out again SOMEDAY but I am guessing not.

1984 came and went (a VERY old movie that I should probably watch once more) but I kinda want to go live off the grid in the tundra these days.  Posting a link to this thread on my blog as I am guessing most folks have no idea what is going on. Many don't care. 

SOME OF US DO. 

Long live philanthropy. I guess that choice has been determined for me. So be it. 

@animats

[Arielle Popstar]

1 hour ago, ChinRey said:

That's actually fair enough although hardly friendly and possibly not very well thought out.

I'm not so sure it's not well thought out. After reading the recent PayPal fiasco where that company attempted to insert a $2500 fine for any client deemed to have been involved with promoting any misinformation, Tilia has effectively done a one-up manship by inserting the sole discretion clause to deny payouts on the digital tokens as they term the L$, without even needing a strongly justifiable reason for doing so. This is something they may get away with legally considering that L$ are after all just an in-game currency. 

Looking further down that document at section 5 they get into how they treat the digital tokens and even get into some of the reasons why they can terminate access to them. Scary stuff.

[EliseAnne85]

27 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

Oh ok, I thought it was something that was already sent out..

I don't know if there will be any sign in yes or no as this is how the blog starts.  My copy/paste is between the stars.

 

*****From time to time, we make changes to Second Life’s Terms and Conditions in order to improve the documents, update and/or clarify policies, and keep the Terms current - all of which assist in governing your relationship with Linden Lab. Our next update will take place automatically on October 31, 2022.

Here’s what’s new in this update:

• We clarified certain functions associated with the LindeX as well as the terms applicable to orders placed on the LindeX.
• We added a section describing the terms applicable to your use of Stored Value Accounts, including your relationship with Tilia LLC. 

By continuing to use our services after the changes take effect, you agree to be bound by those changes. No further action is needed from you to accept such changes. However, if you would prefer to decline them, then you will need to close your Second Life account prior to October 31, 2022.****

[Solar Legion]

Mmm yes ... PayPal can reject transfers at their discretion. Ditto Venmo, CashApp and pretty much all other similar systems. So too can the BitCoin/similar Crypto exchanges.

If you've got a problem with this and you use any of the above services or similar ... You haven't a leg to stand on.

At all.

ETA: Furthermore the ability to convert and cash out Linden Dollars has always been tenuous ... At any time it could be taken away. It always could be.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Solar Legion

[EliseAnne85]

7 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

I'm not so sure it's not well thought out. After reading the recent PayPal fiasco where that company attempted to insert a $2500 fine for any client deemed to have been involved with promoting any misinformation, Tilia has effectively done a one-up manship by inserting the sole discretion clause to deny payouts on the digital tokens as they term the L$, without even needing a strongly justifiable reason for doing so. This is something they may get away with legally considering that L$ are after all just an in-game currency. 

Looking further down that document at section 5 they get into how they treat the digital tokens and even get into some of the reasons why they can terminate access to them. Scary stuff.

Go further down to 11.

*********NO VALUE, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, IS GUARANTEED OR WARRANTED WITH RESPECT TO ANY CONTENT, INCLUDING VIRTUAL TOKENS OR STORED VALUE BALANCES.

Tilia does not ensure continuous, error-free, secure or virus-free operation of the Tilia Service or any component thereof, the Website, Tilia's servers (the "Servers"), or your Account, and you understand that you shall not be entitled to refunds or other compensation based on Tilia's failure to provide any of the foregoing other than as explicitly provided in these Terms.************

 

 

[Lindal Kidd]

Why not just say, "Whatever happens to you, even if it's due to us, is not our fault and we don't owe you a darned thing."

[Solar Legion]

5 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

Why not just say, "Whatever happens to you, even if it's due to us, is not our fault and we don't owe you a darned thing."

Welcome to Contract Language.

It's a bit more clumsily worded here but ... It's not anything new.

[EliseAnne85]

11 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

Why not just say, "Whatever happens to you, even if it's due to us, is not our fault and we don't owe you a darned thing."

It's seems scary, I know, but I think they are just stating worst care scenario such as an attempted cyberattack.   It hasn't happened yet.  That's a good sign, really.  I'm sure Tilia has had expert hackers try to hack in, even military attempts.   Many non-cryptography blockchains have been hacked multiple times.  Look up Solana for one which is proof of history or something like that.  

Edited October 26, 2022 by EliseAnne85