'Inventory flattening'

[Ayashe Ninetails]

And tweeted, apparently.

 

[Love Zhaoying]

3 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

And tweeted, apparently.

 

In support of the complaint, I think a "popup message" on login would be nice for something as big as "we're going to potentially change your inventory!" 

But, people could still ignore it, of course.

 

[TimKoul]

26 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

 

They also posted it on Facebook on May 19.

 

"We will be implementing a process to help fix problems with Second Life inventories. Please read this detailed blog post for more info and watch our SLU livestream: https://second.life/slu051922

Second Life University is a project that aims to teach people all about the vast virtual world of Second Life. In this video, Second Life’s Director of Product, Alexa Linden, will be sharing some inventory tips on May 19th at 11:30am PT."

SLU PlayList: https://second.life/university
Second Life Blog: https://second.life/featurednews
Second Life Public Calendar: https://second.life/calendar
Second Life on Social Media: https://second.life/communityresources

#SecondLifeUniversity #SecondLife #LindenLab #VirtualWorld #Metaverse

 

Nothing says they are going to be going around targeting random inventories for forced cleaning. They made it seem like a patch. And they shouldn't put all that into a video and make people sit through useless drivel that no one cares about just for the part that really matters.

She lost a good portion of her inventory including old rare gachas and aos. I know no one here is going to care though.

Edited August 29, 2022 by TimKoul

[Theresa Tennyson]

2 minutes ago, TimKoul said:

And they shouldn't put all that into a video and make people sit through useless drivel that no one cares about just for the part that really matters.

Which is probably why it was all described in text (with pictures, no less) in the blog post.

[TimKoul]

18 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

In support of the complaint, I think a "popup message" on login would be nice for something as big as "we're going to potentially change your inventory!" 

But, people could still ignore it, of course.

 

A pop-up is more noticeable which is good. 

[TimKoul]

1 minute ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Which is probably why it was all described in text (with pictures, no less) in the blog post.

Examples on how to clean your inventory doesn't exactly scream, "fix it or we will do it for you". Again, they were not very specific on what was going to happen.

[Love Zhaoying]

16 minutes ago, TimKoul said:

Nothing says they are going to be going around targeting random inventories for forced cleaning. They made it seem like a patch. And they shouldn't put all that into a video and make people sit through useless drivel that no one cares about just for the part that really matters.

She lost a good portion of her inventory including old rare gachas and aos. I know no one here is going to care though.

Of course we care.

Were you able to help her to file a ticket, to get the problem resolved?

[LittleMe Jewell]

4 hours ago, Marianne Little said:

Single level is bad? Spread out like a family tree of folders is better?

Yes.  No more than roughly 5000 things "directly" under a folder (i.e. don't count items inside the sub-folders). 

Example - In the below picture, no more than 5000 total things (folders and items) directly under Folder-A (i.e. don't count things inside Folder-AA as Folder-A 'direct' things)

(ETA:  Note that the 5000 number is a rough estimate based on various things posted about inventory over the years)

Edited August 29, 2022 by LittleMe Jewell

[Ardy Lay]

DE-flattening is to alleviate the common missing inventory that's not really missing but might as well be because the viewer can't unpack it problem that also sometimes turns in to login failures because of throughput limitations between the server and the client that result in connection timeouts.

If you can unpack that, you are amazing.

[diamond Marchant]

For the record, let it be known that this limitation on the number of items that can be contained in an inventory folder is a consequence of some implementation decision that was made decades ago... specifically some address field of an inventory data structure likely has an insufficient number of bits. Or something like that.

It is perfectly reasonable (to me) for someone to have a totally flat inventory and find things via search.

But times being what they are, better to just work around the real issue.

If the work around is simply to take spread out flatland over several machine-named folders, one can STILL ignore that and find everything via search

Edited August 29, 2022 by diamond Marchant
more yakking

[Nalates Urriah]

We have lots of inaccurate information here and some very on point.

@Arduenn Schwartzman When you ask a question like yours in the forum you are asking other users. Just like those arguing on Facebook. It is reasonable to expect to see a similar mix of good and bad information. BUT... you can go to one of the Linden employee lead user groups and ask an actual Linden. You can meet Lindens and learn how to email them. As you learn who the Lindens are you can learn who to ask what. Not all Lindens know everything that is going on at the Lab. Got to ask the right Linden.

Also, just as I put a ping to you in this post, one can ping a Linden.

1 hour ago, Marianne Little said:

I am not sure if I understand this.

Is it good or bad to have a "Furniture" main folder, with sub-folders like: "Apple Fall", "Fancy Decor" "Loft & Aria", "Vespertine".... with their own sub-folders for no copy items, boxed items and such?

How many sub-folders in a big folder is too many? 

How many items can a main folder hold? Does sub-folders let me have larger main folders?

How many items can the default folders over "trash" in the inventory hold? Folders like "Body Parts" and "Animations". Under animations I have a big folder for "Stun" with a subfolder for each animation set, and a folder for boxes. Same for the other main stores and folders with "Old stuff" that I have no time to test and delete. 

Is this good?

 

Folders and Items are simply entries in your inventory list. These entries point to things, other folders or assets/items. I forget, but I think each entry is ~256 bytes of information. As far as inventory is concerned there is no difference between a folder or and item entry. While the info in the entry is different these are both still just  entries in the list.

The inventory panel treats folder entries differently than item entries. But still they are nearly identical when it comes to how they are stored.

The maximum number of entries in inventory is unlimited.  However, when loading inventory the software iterates through each folder downloading the items in that folder. I forget but I am pretty sure it is NOT recursive. But it might be. The limit on inventory is the time allotted for downloading a folder. Depending on Internet speed, packet loss, and the number of entries in a folder, folders or items, that limit can be exceeded and then the session login may fail. As a "guide line", that limit can happen at about 5,000 entries in a folder.

So... the idea of too many folders is a bit off the mark. The number of folders matters little to the inventory system. So a folder with 5,000 folders is as much a problem as a folder with 5,000 items/assets. Both cases are 5,000 entries and just as likely to be a problem. So, balancing the number of folders is a matter of what makes rational sense and for easy of use.

A folder is an entry. If the folder has 5,000 entries inside it, it is still just ONE ENTRY in its parent folder. Doesn't matter if it is empty or loaded. It is still just a single entry in the system.

The difference between the main, or system, folders is one cannot delete or move a system folder and system folders usually use a special folder icon. Otherwise they are the same.

Your folder arrangement is "good" if it works for you. There are efficient and inefficient ways to arrange inventory. While people often debate which way is more or less efficient, personal preference is the final deciding factor. The SL system really doesn't limit you. The physics of the Internet and time limit us to <5k entries per folder. But if you have a great connection to the SL servers, you may be able to exceed that limit. I think it foolish to try.

The ~17 System folders could each have 5,000 folders each with 5,000 items...  17x5000x5000=425,000,000... I am not there...  yet.

[Arduenn Schwartzman]

23 minutes ago, Nalates Urriah said:

@Arduenn Schwartzman When you ask a question like yours in the forum you are asking other users. Just like those arguing on Facebook. It is reasonable to expect to see a similar mix of good and bad information. BUT... you can go to one of the Linden employee lead user groups and ask an actual Linden. You can meet Lindens and learn how to email them. As you learn who the Lindens are you can learn who to ask what. Not all Lindens know everything that is going on at the Lab. Got to ask the right Linden.

And yet, here you are typing a whole lot of tl;dr after that, joining in on the discussion. You're welcome.

[Rowan Amore]

What happens if nothing is in separate folders aside from the ones they came in?  No structure whatsoever?

 

[Marianne Little]

56 minutes ago, TimKoul said:

A pop-up is more noticeable which is good. 

I have got so many pop-ups that I close them without reading. 😔

1 hour ago, TimKoul said:

snip------------------------

She lost a good portion of her inventory including old rare gachas and aos. I know no one here is going to care though.

That is terrible. Has she contacted LL? Maybe they can restore her inventory to a previous version? 

I wonder how big her inventory is? I have to delete things several times in a year to keep it at 100 000 and not explode up. I think I have 98 000 now. It is time to kill a few thousand. I have heard about people having 700 000 inventories, and they say they manage just fine. No lag, no trouble logging in.

[Rowan Amore]

1 hour ago, TimKoul said:

"We will be implementing a process to help fix problems with Second Life inventories. Please read this detailed blog post for more info and watch our SLU livestream: https://second.life/slu051922

Second Life University is a project that aims to teach people all about the vast virtual world of Second Life. In this video, Second Life’s Director of Product, Alexa Linden, will be sharing some inventory tips on May 19th at 11:30am PT."

SLU PlayList: https://second.life/university
Second Life Blog: https://second.life/featurednews
Second Life Public Calendar: https://second.life/calendar
Second Life on Social Media: https://second.life/communityresources

#SecondLifeUniversity #SecondLife #LindenLab #VirtualWorld #Metaverse

 

Nothing says they are going to be going around targeting random inventories for forced cleaning. They made it seem like a patch. And they shouldn't put all that into a video and make people sit through useless drivel that no one cares about just for the part that really matters.

She lost a good portion of her inventory including old rare gachas and aos. I know no one here is going to care though.

If she has missing inventory, it may not be because of the reorganization.  There are other things that cause inventory to not appear.  

https://wiki.firestormviewer.org/fs_missing_inventory

 

[Marianne Little]

It was once, many years ago, that I bought every hair when a hair store had a closing sale. I did not use them, but I could not bring myself to trash them. So I filled my platform with boxes and packed every hair folder in them, named the boxes and put all in another box to hold them and named it: "XXX HAIR DO NOT DELETE!"

Guess what, I never needed to unpack a single hairstyle from that box. I deliberatly deleted the box after 2 years. I have not been so afraid of deleting older stuff since then. I still get a bit overboard when it is a sale. And when I discovered Weekend sales... I was crazy. Now, I can look at the weekend sales and think: "Maybe I should buy that... eh, I have no use for it". 

I need to sort 6 months of mad Weekend shopping. I did some big work on my inventory until 2021. 

[Lindal Kidd]

I have to laugh at some of the attitudes on display here. People mad because "LL messed with my inventory and didn't tell me about it!"

And then, when people point out that it was in the blog, on Twitter, on Facebook, on YouTube. and here on the Forums, we get,

"But I never look at any of that cr*p. Why didn't they put it where I'd see it?"

Well, I'll tell you. It's because you never look any place.

You can't show a sunset to someone who only faces east.

[Love Zhaoying]

1 hour ago, Nalates Urriah said:

BUT... you can go to one of the Linden employee lead user groups and ask an actual Linden. You can meet Lindens and learn how to email them. As you learn who the Lindens are you can learn who to ask what.

That would make him a member of the Intelligentsia!

[TimKoul]

33 minutes ago, Marianne Little said:

I have got so many pop-ups that I close them without reading. 😔

That is terrible. Has she contacted LL? Maybe they can restore her inventory to a previous version? 

I wonder how big her inventory is? I have to delete things several times in a year to keep it at 100 000 and not explode up. I think I have 98 000 now. It is time to kill a few thousand. I have heard about people having 700 000 inventories, and they say they manage just fine. No lag, no trouble logging in.

She was told it was non-reversable. 

Those are not pop-ups. Pop-ups would happen before you log in.

[Love Zhaoying]

3 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

I have to laugh at some of the attitudes on display here. People mad because "LL messed with my inventory and didn't tell me about it!"

And then, when people point out that it was in the blog, on Twitter, on Facebook, on YouTube. and here on the Forums, we get,

"But I never look at any of that cr*p. Why didn't they put it where I'd see it?"

Well, I'll tell you. It's because you never look any place.

You can't show a sunset to someone who only faces east.

And then there's: "We sure read about it on the forum a lot!"

"But I never go on the forum!"

"..Aren't you on the forum right now?"

[TimKoul]

22 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

And then there's: "We sure read about it on the forum a lot!"

"But I never go on the forum!"

"..Aren't you on the forum right now?"

 

27 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

I have to laugh at some of the attitudes on display here. People mad because "LL messed with my inventory and didn't tell me about it!"

And then, when people point out that it was in the blog, on Twitter, on Facebook, on YouTube. and here on the Forums, we get,

"But I never look at any of that cr*p. Why didn't they put it where I'd see it?"

Well, I'll tell you. It's because you never look any place.

You can't show a sunset to someone who only faces east.

I laugh at the amount of toxicity and close-minded heads here at the forums. Its why most users are at facebook and twitter. No one wants to bother with garbage.

[Love Zhaoying]

27 minutes ago, TimKoul said:

She was told it was non-reversable. 

That's awful! In the notices we were given, we were told the let LL know and they would help. I'd never expect it to be "non-reversible".

58 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

If she has missing inventory, it may not be because of the reorganization.  There are other things that cause inventory to not appear.  

https://wiki.firestormviewer.org/fs_missing_inventory

 

Given the situation, it makes more sense that it could be unrelated to the new changes.  Unless LL told her that it was related, of course.

[Love Zhaoying]

6 minutes ago, TimKoul said:

I laugh at the amount of toxicity and close-minded heads here at the forums. Its why most users are at facebook and twitter. No one wants to bother with garbage.

I wish you could see @Lindal Kidd's post as an "insider" - it is pretty ironic. Sorry if the "laugh" part puts you off.

My very first post about your friend's issue - which you messaged me about - was intended to be quite serious.  I don't  know what set you off, unless it was a subsequent post.

Thanks,

Love

[Lindal Kidd]

7 minutes ago, TimKoul said:

most users are at facebook and twitter. No one wants to bother with garbage.

I can NOT believe you actually could type this without your fingers falling off.

[TimKoul]

3 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

That's awful! In the notices we were given, we were told the let LL know and they would help. I'd never expect it to be "non-reversible".

Given the situation, it makes more sense that it could be unrelated to the new changes.  Unless LL told her that it was related, of course.

It could be unrelated but I only know what I have been told and yes, its very awful. All I am saying is this should have been handled differently in a way that gives users ample time to fix it themselves. A lot of people didn't even know about it. Thats neither LL's or their fault. I am simply saying there are better and more modern ways to let people know. Log-in pop ups are the best option for something like this because if youre going to mess with peoples inventories, you really want to maximize the reach as best you can. Thats all I am saying.