Requesting an LGBTQ+ sub forum.

[Arielle Popstar]

1 minute ago, Coffee Pancake said:

How will we keep people out?

The same way we keep people out of pride.

WE DON'T

But if you're only coming to attack or debate the existence or validity of LGBTQ+ people, derail the threads trolling or JAQing off, you can be reported for being plainly off-topic. Why? because threads in the LGBTQ+ forum will be explicitly LGBTQ+ and not General debate.

Simple as that.

Do you intend to focus it on LGBTQ+ within S/L or also out in the real world?

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

7 hours ago, Diedre Bloodrose said:

We have zero problem with people complaining that they don't understand the service or that the pages in the siddur (prayer book) are numbered backwards.

You're far more tolerant than me then because they're clearly not manga readers and should therefore be cast out! 😄

[Coffee Pancake]

8 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Do you intend to focus it on LGBTQ+ within S/L or also out in the real world?

It's not uncommon to for first steps coming out RL to be inspired by SL, and the SL community is someone's first and sometimes only connection.

[Kathlen Onyx]

15 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

How will we keep people out?

The same way we keep people out of pride.

WE DON'T

But if you're only coming to attack or debate the existence or validity of LGBTQ+ people, derail the threads trolling or JAQing off, you can be reported for being plainly off-topic. Why? because threads in the LGBTQ+ forum will be explicitly LGBTQ+ and not General debate.

Simple as that.

Ah I see now. You want to the freedom to get posts deleted because it doesn't align with what you deem appropriate or "on topic".  You want the moderators to take the time to read the threads and determine whether or not it is on or off topic or will they simple take the word of the person doing the reporting?  Tell me why do you think this doesn't happen now?  Moderators delete off topic post all the time.  Why? Because there is a fine line between moderating and silencing especially in a discussion forum. 

 

[Luna Bliss]

19 hours ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

I'm in favour of creating a sub-forum dedicated to the LGBTQ+ community in SL and can see a lot of potential for good, but I'm opposed to the idea of creating one as a "refuge" from the bad behaviour of others on these forums because they belong to all of us and nobody should feel unwelcome or marginalized.

If we don't address the root causes of these issues, such as intolerance and bigotry, then we're just allowing it to fester and grow and it will eventually seep into any refuge we may try to provide, and worse we encourage it by reinforcing the belief held by some that the LGBTQ+ community should be kept segregated when the reality is it's the intolerant bigots that we need to ostracize!

While I agree with your analysis of how a society or forum should be, I think we need to be careful not to be idealistic. Sometimes this "refuge" you describe is needed by marginalized groups until the laudable societal reforms you point to eventually manifest.

It's possible that it can, as you say, make it less likely to change the bigotry in society overall if a marginalized group is totally segregated off by themselves. However, what if the goal of the marginalized group at that specific point in time is to feel safe to explore their concerns without interference and pushback (vs being involved in the worthy but difficult task of encouraging the larger society to accept them)?

I've found there's a lot of blame (not that you are doing this) placed on marginalized groups who emphasize any type of separation from the larger society oppressing them. It's almost as if those who oppress fear the power inherent in uniting.  In fact, some even believe that a marginalized groups focus on separation is the actual CAUSE of all the problems -- as if there would be no racism, sexism, or gender-homo phobia if the marginalized group had not pointed out they are being treated differently. There is no recognition that the separation was initially created by those who want to oppress them -- that it already exists in every facet of society.

Safe spaces created by temporary separation are necessary for healing, however, as communing with others who understand your specific problems and needs, and learning from each other ways in which to combat the oppression from the larger society, is invaluable.

Edited April 15, 2022 by Luna Bliss

[Luna Bliss]

17 hours ago, Sparkle Bunny said:

The fact that people seem so disturbed by the prospect of an LGBTQ+ space is, for me as for several others, further proof that it's needed. If they don't want it, why can't they just ignore it, like they keep telling everyone else just to ignore the bullying and bigotry they get subjected to? Are they afraid they won't be able to refrain from trolling it, and a few more people will see them for what they are? I mean, this thread has already put a couple of extra people on my ignore list, because either I was in blissful ignorance of their existence or hadn't fully understood how appalling they were.

When a post rings so true for me I am often compelled to requote it.

[Silent Mistwalker]

13 hours ago, Jordan Whitt said:

the only negativity or vitriol on this topic has been towards people like me because how dare a non-community member have opinions or ask questions in a public forum.

I'm not a member of the LBGT+ community. I still don't get those kinds of reactions when I ask questions because I do so respectfully, not with contempt hidden behind every word.

 

Edit: I'm not saying that is what you have done or do, just that I have seen it happen repeatedly.

Edited April 15, 2022 by Silent Mistwalker

[Silent Mistwalker]

11 hours ago, Diedre Bloodrose said:

Absolutely true.  However, straight women aren't ever murdered because they're straight.  Cisgender women aren't passed over for promotion because they're cisgender.

No, we're murdered because we are First Nations or black or Asian. We're murdered for existing just as LGBT+ are.

[Codex Alpha]

10 hours ago, Diedre Bloodrose said:

Keeping people out isn't a goal. 

Diedre Bloodrose is bolded below;

 

One of the many problems faced by LGBTQ people is that so many people who aren't LGBTQ have strong opinions about what is and is not homophobic, transphobic, or biphobic.  

 

Yes, one tends to have strong reactions to being labeled or defined a certain way, or even being told that having an opinion that way is wrong – and they want the chance to have a discussion about it.

 

Opinions that have no basis in the lived experience of LGBTQ people.  

 

Yes, because one’s opinion is formed from a lifetime of one’s own lived experience, and their opinion may have already understood, recognized and considered alternate worldviews – yet are now speaking their opinion on the sum of all that. To say that one cannot have or voice an opinion because one has not lived the life of another person in its entirety is unfair, and can be taken as just another way to silence one’s counterview on any subject.

 

“I’m not giving advice, I’m just giving an opinion”. Learn from or discard someone else’s opinion if you like, that’s your choice.

 

One thing that I would hope for from LGBTQ forums is that people who aren't LGBTQ would hold their tongue about what is and is not oppressive behavior.

 

An unfair and impossible task, unless of course you want to run your own forum on your own hosting, and pay for it yourself, then you could implement anything you wish upon others. To ask for not only a forum on Second Life, - what you are really asking for is a platform -, but to have a company use resources to police others – is not reasonable.

 

When one is told that one’s behaviour is oppressive, or one person claims that they have been oppressed by another, or one is even called an ‘oppressor’ – and assuming they are a normal, even-keeled person – they most certainly want to discuss it. It’s not fair or reasonable for anyone to simply state ‘this is oppressive behaviour’ and have it be so. This is why we have institutions existing to investigate claims, and to see if any crime has been committed – whilst maintaining the ‘innocent until proven guilty’ principle. One is not an oppressor just because someone said so.

 

Absent lived experience, it can be very difficult to see how individual behavior links up with various kinds of structural oppression (something SL is not remotely free of).

 

What is ‘structural oppression’ as applied to Second Life, and how is Second Life ‘structured’ in a way that prevents members of a certain group from equitable treatment as a whole?

 

How is Second Life ‘structured’ to keep you down, limit your fun, or enjoyment of the platform?

 

Another thing I would hope for is to be able to mention a problematic interaction in passing without having people who aren't LGBTQ jump in and demand the details of the interaction so they can argue it wasn't what I thought it was.  

Discussing a topic is how people learn other points of view, and it allows you the chance to convince them of your position.
 

Or be told that I am too sensitive.  I would like to be able to use phrases like "cis het" without somebody raging that it's perjorative*.  Or any of a dozen other exhausting things.

Perhaps it is best to stop applying labels and phrases to other people. Usually when people start doing that to each other, it doesn’t make it conducive to healthy discussion or coming to an understanding.

And frankly, some people may actually be too sensitive, and they need for someone else to tell you so. Being oversensitive to others can make life hard - it's good to get feedback from others about it. Other than gaslighting types, most people mean well and want people to have a bit of fortitude and base in their character that doesn't just get blown around in the wind.

It's not, "Keep Out, Queers Only."  It's just "Here is a space where we'll assume people are LGBTQ and that LGBTQ people speak authoritatively about their lives and experience."  Here's a space where our sensibilities are assumed.  I have a several friends who aren't LGBTQ who thrive in spaces like that.

As I have mentioned in other posts, you have the ultimate power to have a ‘safe space’ in your own hands and ability. Simply start a forum where you will host and moderate it yourself. It seems to be the best way to have such a community, and to have ultimate control over what happens there.

Second Life does not owe any of us a moderated, protected platform for us to congregate and discuss ideas. Having a specific LGBTQ forum based on people’s identity and sexuality or political view or whatever else is starting to go outside of what Second Life was intended for: a virtual world for all to come create, share, build worlds and socialize with people around the world.

An escape from the pressures of the real world, not just another battleground for it.

Personally, I would like Second Life to focus on what Second Life is. No one wins when a corporate for profit venture turns into some social war platform.

When LGBTQ people say that they find cis het people exhausting, it doesn't mean they don't love the cis het people in their lives.  It means that it is exhausting to deal with all of the ways they don't see how the world is arranged to suit them over us.  When my Black friends tell me they find white people exhausting, I don't take it personally.  I just try to give them the space they need.  

One could consider simply not using phrases to describe others, as it just puts that person into a box, then treats them in accordance with that box and predefined trait.

 

Keeping people out isn't a goal.

 

Yet keeping out people is exactly what happens, and is not just exclusive to the topic you're interested in. It happens in all groups. The majority always calls for those who do not hold the same opinion to be removed.

This just creates bubbles of interest everywhere, and is good for no one in the end.

 

It's not about excluding anyone.  It's not about dividing the world into smaller pieces based on sexual orientation and gender/sexual identity.  It's about a place that centers people who aren't normally centered and often have to decide if it's worth their energy to point out where they've been casually excluded.  

That centering tends to reduce a lot of the need for more aggressive moderation. 

 

Is it your goal in truth to have a protected platform at the expense of Second Life, which is a virtual world to be enjoyed by all, regardless of their worldview or any other personal trait?

 

Second Life is already ‘inclusive’ the way the forums are right now. Everyone can post, everyone can reply, and everyone can enjoy equal expression of opinion, and equal moderation.

What more do you want, exactly?

 

 

Edited April 15, 2022 by entity0x

[Codex Alpha]

8 hours ago, So Whimsy said:

It is absolutely impossible to hear the tone of voice of someone posting text. You know that. What you CAN hear is your own interpretation of what the person COULD sound like and you don't know whether you're wrong or right.

I'm sure you too have been called out on something you wrote before and went 'wtf I didn't mean it that way at all' because the offended read something into your words that completely wasn't there. It happened to me personally too many times to count, especially since us germans tend to be very blunt and to the point.

Just don't do it, it never works out.

Don't worry about such things, as that is not on you. If you have a decent command of the English language - which you do - you can communicate quite clearly in text, and should not have to apologize or take responsibility for someone else's interpretation or reaction to it.

You may find it has nothing to do on your end, or how you communicated, but on the others ability to process what you communicated due to their own level of vocabulary and comprehension.

I've been in chat rooms on the internet for a long time, and many people 'misunderstand' or argue in many different ways, and many times it boiled down to them not understanding (or bothering to look up a definition/context/usage of) a word before reacting.

I've also found in life and in live chats that people have become very adept at 'tuning out' other people, but the text goes in no matter what they're doing, and sometimes becomes a better and more effective tool to communicate ideas because they can't just simply plug their ears and go 'lalala!'.

To think otherwise would diminish the written word of countless authors and writers and books that relied on text alone - it is simply not a reasonable way to dismiss someone else's words or characterize them in any way just because they typed it and didn't speak it.

3 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

It's not uncommon to for first steps coming out RL to be inspired by SL, and the SL community is someone's first and sometimes only connection.

Would it be fair to assume Coffee that you're more looking for a Second Life sponsored and moderation enforced platform for you and the others in the group you promote to have a platform to voice and discuss your ideas for all to see?

And similarly, would it be appropriate to have a Republican forum here? or Democrat? or Hot Rod Owners? Where would it begin and end and be reasonable? Why can't SL be limited to SL topics and groups (with a bit of natural leeway of course in General Discussion)?

What is not working for you so far?

And why is it you can't do this on your own?

Edited April 15, 2022 by entity0x

[Diedre Bloodrose]

7 hours ago, Alwin Alcott said:

there is no "we" ... it's always  just them, more like the Borg's .. resistance is futile". "we" tell you how you need to think, do and aproach, difference or  having other opinions isn't allowed ( not even about a seperate forumsection) and you get called phobish, racist or discriminating.

Both of the examples I gave are in reference to specific communities I am part of and where I have multiple opportunities to participate or be represented in the process. The use of "we" is appropriate in that context. I also use "we" when my synagogue or local Pride org makes decisions I disagree with.  It's about community, not a monolithic platform. 

Where did I say that having other opinions isn't allowed? Or that you needed to be told how to think? I certainly don't think an LGBTQ forum section would have less disagreement than other sections. It certainly hasn't been my experience in other venues that have decided to create LGBTQ focused forums.

I didn't say anything about you @Alwin Alcottand certainly didn't use any of those words to describe you. The most I can say about you is that I would guess you're angry about this proposal for some reason, but that would just be a guess.

Do you think this proposal will hurt you (as an individual) in some way?  If so, can you be specific as to how you think it will hurt you?  If not, why do you care so much?  Based on my experience elsewhere, I think it's likey to help me and others like me, whether or not there's any change in moderation.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Yes, being LGBTQ+ is totally the same thing as being a "hot rod owner." How very astute.

This thread has become an absolutely awful indictment of the deficit of empathy and compassion in our culture, not to mention of reason and logic.

Courage, my loves.

[Solo Alpha]

36 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

This thread has become an absolutely awful indictment of the deficit of empathy and compassion in our culture, not to mention of reason and logic.

Courage, my loves.

This thread is also a very fine example of a militant left-winged attempt under guise of the banner of LGBTQ+ to attack freedom of speech by corporate means in an environment that is supposed to be free and inclusive for ALL.

Courage to those excluded from Scylla's love. 

 

Edited April 15, 2022 by Solo Alpha

[Luna Bliss]

15 hours ago, entity0x said:

"If we restricted everyone who everyone wanted to restrict, we'd have no one left on the platform" - Phillip Rosedale (HIFI) "We can't keep up with the ban list, we can't keep up with managing them... so we're going to leave it up to you to do so - in your own worlds.. hosted by you." (Paraphrased but famous famous words)

But you said earlier you were banned from HIFI.

[Love Zhaoying]

27 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Yes, being LGBTQ+ is totally the same thing as being a "hot rod owner." How very astute.

This thread has become an absolutely awful indictment of the deficit of empathy and compassion in our culture, not to mention of reason and logic.

Courage, my loves.

It's all "beginner-baiters", luckily! 

[Luna Bliss]

21 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

I read almost all of the sub forums.  I've never noticed them being unwelcoming to any group.  Particular threads may veer off into unfriendly territory, of course.  The Covid threads, the election threads, the BLM threads.  In none of those did I feel unwelcome after stating my view or making a comment.  I rolled my eyes a lot, gave my WTF reaction more than a few times, too.  

A forum is a discussion area.  That's it's function.  Discussions will always have views from opposing sides.  

Well, I'll try to discuss with you because you are at least being real and logical.

Regarding what I see as 'unwelcoming' in the non-binary thread:

What if you were, say, a lesbian women and you went out to dinner with a group of friends, or attended some other group where people are discussing their experiences, and you mentioned that you had been having trouble lately because many around you just wouldn't accept you due to your sexual orientation. And someone responded by saying "You should not talk about your problems of non-acceptance now because people in Ukraine are suffering". Or what if they said "we should be talking about the gay people in Ukraine having problems and not the issues with any gay people here, because it's much worse for those in a warzone".  * This is what happened in the non-binary thread.

Would you feel welcomed?

Whether these inept responses come from people trolling and trying to stir the pot, or come from people that believe LGBTQ+ concerns are political and so makes them want to fight what they perceive as 'the other side', or whether they come from people with zero social skills, the effect is the same -- it's very unwelcoming, and very typical of how marginalized groups are received when attempting to have their voices heard.

[Kathlen Onyx]

2 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

What if you were, say, a lesbian women and you went out to dinner with a group of friends, or attended some other group where people are discussing their experiences, and you mentioned that you had been having trouble lately because many around you just wouldn't accept you due to your sexual orientation. And someone responded by saying "You should not talk about your problems of non-acceptance now because people in Ukraine are suffering". Or what if they said "we should be talking about the gay people in Ukraine having problems and not the issues with any gay people here, because it's much worse for those in a warzone".  * This is what happened in the non-binary thread.

 

Then you respond with your own dialogue and explain why you disagree. You know...have a discussion.  I assume you didn't copy exactly what they said but are just paraphrasing what you read.  If that's their opinion then it is. They didn't say "listen, you moron, stop talking about your problems when people in the Ukraine are suffering" Now, you may have read it like that but it wasn't posted in those words.  If they had responded like that I'm sure it would have been removed but it wasn't because people are allowed opinions whether you agree with them or if they are insensitive. If they feel that way they do. 

[Diedre Bloodrose]

27 minutes ago, Solo Alpha said:

This thread is also a very fine example of a militant left-winged attempt under guise of the banner of LGBTQ+ to attack freedom of speech by corporate means in an environment that is supposed to be free and inclusive for ALL.

Courage to those excluded from Scylla's love. 

 

You do know that there are plenty of right wing LGBTQ people?

[Rowan Amore]

46 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Well, I'll try to discuss with you because you are at least being real and logical.

Regarding what I see as 'unwelcoming' in the non-binary thread:

What if you were, say, a lesbian women and you went out to dinner with a group of friends, or attended some other group where people are discussing their experiences, and you mentioned that you had been having trouble lately because many around you just wouldn't accept you due to your sexual orientation. And someone responded by saying "You should not talk about your problems of non-acceptance now because people in Ukraine are suffering". Or what if they said "we should be talking about the gay people in Ukraine having problems and not the issues with any gay people here, because it's much worse for those in a warzone".  * This is what happened in the non-binary thread.

Would you feel welcomed?

Whether these inept responses come from people trolling and trying to stir the pot, or come from people that believe LGBTQ+ concerns are political and so makes them want to fight what they perceive as 'the other side', or whether they come from people with zero social skills, the effect is the same -- it's very unwelcoming, and very typical of how marginalized groups are received when attempting to have their voices heard.

I wouldn't feel unwelcome.  I'd consider the source first.  I'd then just look at them and roll my eyes.  Sometimes, saying nothing or in the case of the forums, the WTF reaction is all that needs to be said.

I was discussing something similar with my son the other day and how one reacts.  He told me, the look I gave him when he did something dumba** or said something ridiculous when he was young, stayed with him more than when my husband would lecture him on what was proper.

There will ALWAYS be people who say things in any forum that are, basically, dumba** statements.  No amount of chastising or reporting or flinging insults back and forth will change that fact.  How one reacts to those comments?  The WTF/confused reactions says more to me than anything else.  No words needed.  

I don't recall anyone making a similar suggestion (a separate sub forum) for black folks when the BLM issue was a hot topic here.  Should we only have allowed posts from black people since white folks couldn't possibly understand where we're coming from?  I didn't find all the white people's posts unwelcoming.  I don't see the difference.

Edited April 15, 2022 by Rowan Amore

[Solo Alpha]

7 minutes ago, Diedre Bloodrose said:

You do know that there are plenty of right wing LGBTQ people?

I do, but they are not doing the attempt here.

It's a certain collection of people with extreme left political views who will not understand what they are asking for is as fascist and totalitarian as the right winged views they seem to profess in everyone else.

Edited April 15, 2022 by Solo Alpha

[Scylla Rhiadra]

45 minutes ago, Solo Alpha said:

Courage to those excluded from Scylla's love.

Nobody is "excluded" from my love, Solo. Ever.

For someone who's known me a very long time, you really don't know me, do you?

[Solo Alpha]

4 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Nobody is "excluded" from my love, Solo. Ever.

For someone who's known me a very long time, you really don't know me, do you?

Then tell me why it's so easy for you to love those who renounce freedom of speech but show no love at all for minds who do not share your specific ideas about this subject ? 

Edited April 15, 2022 by Solo Alpha

[Silent Mistwalker]

I gotta get off this planet.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

18 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

I don't recall anyone making a similar suggestion (a separate sub forum) for black folks when the BLM issues was a hot topic here.  Should we only have allowed posts from black people since white folks couldn't possibly understand where we're coming from?  I didn't find all the white people's posts unwelcoming.  I don't see the difference.

I agree with much of what you said, but the Lindens are making specific community pages, so I guess it doesn't seem like an odd request to me to have community sub forums - perhaps tied to that project, even.

Depends on how much LL wants to run with that idea, I guess.

[Solar Legion]

Newsflash for the "freedom of speech" crowd: That only applies to the Government itself. Linden Lab is free to restrict how they please and always have been.

Try harder.