Second Chance For Banned Users

[Orwar]

2 minutes ago, So Whimsy said:

You took the words right out of my mouth

   Ooh! It must've been whilst you were kissin' me!
You took the words right out of my mouth!
Oh, and I swear it's true - I was just about to say I love you!
(Loooove you!).

   .. Err. Which thread am I in again?

[Madelaine McMasters]

52 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

I'm with Silent on this one. You have to be pretty darn awful to get permabanned. LL is slow to ban because it amounts to shooting themselves in the foot financially. They WANT customers!

But some people seem to have the mistaken belief that a ban is punishment. Yes, it certainly seems like that to the person banned, and their friends (if any). But a ban is not intended as punishment. It's a surgical procedure to protect the grid from people who do far more harm to SL than any revenue they might bring in.

Might people have the mistaken belief that permabanning actually prevents the return of banned individuals? I can change my IP and MAC addresses in under five minutes and return to SL that quickly, under a new identity, after a ban. I've seen people do that right here in the forum. I think you have, too. We know of those people because they quickly misbehave in recognizable fashion and get banned again. As someone else mentioned, their recidivism is our only way of detecting them. Anyone who learns their lesson from the punishment and returns, never to misbehave again, could escape our detection. So, we might have an unavoidably skewed understanding of the effect of banning.

LL is no better equipped to detect wily return offenders than we are, as we (via AR) are their detectors. I'd not be surprised if one year bans were actually more beneficial to LL than permabans. I would be very surprised if there was any way to measure that.

Edited April 10, 2022 by Madelaine McMasters

[kirishimarabbit]

I would imagine to be permanently banned from Second Life you would have to repeatedly do some pretty egregious things that go several steps beyond childish trolling. I say this only because I'm aware thanks to Youtube of some individuals who have been trolling the grid for nearly a decade on one account. I'm sure there are exceptions, but I think you have to be very horrible and most of all stubborn (one-strike, two-strike, etc) to meet this fate. 

In that case, I don't believe one should be unbanned. Repeated past behavior helps predict future behavior. They'd probably go back to being awful and disruptive in no time.

[Silent Mistwalker]

LL would honor one-year bans on their part, it's the party of the other part that might not. And that's the problem with any "permaban". Most people are honest enough with themselves and don't try to get around a ban, at least not any time soon after one. They know they screwed up. They know there are consequences for screwing up. 

Being banned from any platform is a) a wakeup call and b) a known consequence of that person's actions. If they view it as a punishment, they need to find a way to adjust their perspective because it is a bit skewed compared to the rest of humanity as a whole. There are those who do need professional help with such things.

LL already handles things on a case-by-case basis including past history. It's not the ideal situation but there isn't a whole lot else LL can do short of tightening things down so much the grid becomes deserted and they end up closing the grid forever. Some may want that. Most of us don't.

Edited April 10, 2022 by Silent Mistwalker
grid not gird (le)

[Madelaine McMasters]

3 minutes ago, kirishimarabbit said:

In that case, I don't believe one should be unbanned. Repeated past behavior helps predict future behavior. They'd probably go back to being awful and disruptive in no time.

Some can and do, even while permabanned.

If permabanning really only works for those who learn from the effort, is it pointless?

[bigmoe Whitfield]

as explained by others,  it's pretty simple to get around most type of bans,  even hardware bans are pretty simple to get around,  changing a series number for example, a bit trivial to do, but tools are out there to do it.

[kirishimarabbit]

3 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Some can and do, even while permabanned.

If permabanning really only works for those who learn from the effort, is it pointless?

Mostly like it is, but I'm sure there are some troublemakers who are a bit too lazy to learn how to circumvent permabans to get back on the grid undetected. So though permabans probably do cast a very small net over those who need to be banned, I do think it manages to snag some. 

[Mollymews]

2 hours ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

If holding out hope of regaining one's old identity and inventory encourages turning over a new leaf, then finite bans have value.

this I think raises the question: Is redemption possible ?

i like to think that there is a path to redemption for everyone no matter what they did

the path to redemption is a pretty hard road. Is not like the path to forgiveness which doesn't require anything of the offender

[So Whimsy]

18 minutes ago, Mollymews said:

i like to think that there is a path to redemption for everyone no matter what they did

the path to redemption is a pretty hard road.

Age players will be age players, it's in their nature, it's who they are, there is nothing that can change them.

[Mona Eberhardt]

To get permabanned, you must have run out of second chances.

[Paul Hexem]

2 hours ago, Orwar said:

   For the most part, by the time you get yourself banned from SL, you've already received your second warning/chance.

1 hour ago, Lindal Kidd said:

I'm with Silent on this one. You have to be pretty darn awful to get permabanned.

 

3 minutes ago, Mona Eberhardt said:

To get permabanned, you must have run out of second chances.

I won't say how I know, but I can assure you that's not the case. LL absolutely makes mistakes and does sometimes ban on first offense, no warnings.

I also know a lawyer can make your ban appeal much more effective.

All that said, the only people it really affects are the people that actually care and have investments. Everyone else just makes an alt and continues trolling.

I'd be good with perma bans being gone and everything being suspensions instead.

[Lindal Kidd]

Yes, Paul, there have been mistakes made by LL. In such cases, the appeals process has been known to work. Is it perfect? Probably not. But I don't know enough about individual cases to have an opinion on that.

[Paul Hexem]

1 minute ago, Lindal Kidd said:

Yes, Paul, there have been mistakes made by LL. In such cases, the appeals process has been known to work. Is it perfect? Probably not. But I don't know enough about individual cases to have an opinion on that.

And like I said, even if LL's system was infallible, it only hurts residents that are invested, contributing members of the platform.

Making an alt and coming back is absolutely trivial for people that have no stake in it and just want to break the rules.

[cunomar]

Even the failed prison system recognizes that without hope of redemption you will create a monster . Pub life experience tells me short bans are more effective than long bans , i figure because people are creatures of habit , break the habit and they have lost nothing , have nothing to lose .

As for unbanning ask the people who reported them in the first place , in hindsight the matter may seem trivial to them or not .

Edited April 10, 2022 by cunomar

[Bloodflowers174]

Hi all, I appreciate this post being made by someone I've known for many years on SL.

     I'm Monte and I'm a banned resident. I was banned around May 15th, 2017 and at that time I was 19. I'm 24 now, graduated and I feel like a different person than I was then.

     I followed the safehub communities of places like Arapaima, Nelsonia, Korea1, Violet, and realized how those places can become cesspits. People there sharing real life information, dogging on one another day-in day-out, holding signs with pictures of their kids or dox information. I'm not proud to admit that I have participated in the community, but I became friends with a lot of those people. I noticed some of them were either proudly or secretly struggling with mental illness and I wanted to befriend them, so they'd have someone. As a young guy, I took to wanting to become popular through making people laugh and bringing joy to them. What this got me into was bad mouthing others, as per the nature of those communities and being vocally negative. The community and my problems at home I was growing up with (familial issues), the behavior just grew like a wildfire. I've spent plenty of cash on this game and soon after created a second account, a lady avatar that I could dress up and make all fancy with nice mesh etc. That account days later was met with an immediate ban (not really a ban, there was no email, just went logging into the account it states "your account is on hold"). Soon after my main was met with the same "on hold" message.

     I sought out answers and every ticket I've placed since is met with a copy and pasted response about my account being used to harass others online, and that my access is terminated. I never had the chance to have a genuine conversation with any Linden Lab employees, tickets would get closed one after the other for 5 years now. Since my "on hold" first time termination, I've returned to SL on over 200 accounts by now, but I've definitely matured and furthered away from any negative emotions I use to put forward. I understand that "ban-evading" is against the rules, but I never received a response, an answer, or explanation. It could be that the email tied to the account has been hijacked since, years ago, I don't know.

     It's just everytime I return to the game, I just think about the amount of time I'd be willing to spend positively all across the grid, and then I just end up remorseful, regretting my actions and begging to be unbanned. It's not like I killed someone, I don't believe I deserve practically life in Second Life prison for my association or actions I can't recall? I'm sorry for any bad behavior I may have done. I've grown, I don't even have the time I did anymore to sit there and project negative feelings online, I'm caught up working my job in healthcare now.

     My username is exlyndro.resident, and I hope this post goes somewhere so that maybe someday, 5 years after my ban, I may be unbanned. 

[Mollymews]

1 hour ago, So Whimsy said:

Age players will be age players, it's in their nature, it's who they are, there is nothing that can change them.

with treatment, people who are sociopaths can change

I like Robert Hare's definitions of the two. A psychopath is a person lacking a sense of empathy or morality. A sociopath is a person who only differs from the ordinary person in the sense of right or wrong

with sociopaths, medical intervention is possible and can be successful in many cases

with psychopaths then intervention is a lot harder. That it is harder doesn't mean that intervention is impossible in all cases, it just means that in some cases the person is medically irredeemable - meaning that there is no path to redemption for this person. In the irredeemable psychopathic case the person is typically detained in a mental institution and in no position to log into SL

 

[Silent Mistwalker]

59 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

And like I said, even if LL's system was infallible, it only hurts residents that are invested, contributing members of the platform.

Making an alt and coming back is absolutely trivial for people that have no stake in it and just want to break the rules.

All the more reason for LL to keep banning them until they either get bored or grow up.

[Silent Mistwalker]

17 minutes ago, Bloodflowers174 said:

Hi all, I appreciate this post being made by someone I've known for many years on SL.

     I'm Monte and I'm a banned resident. I was banned around May 15th, 2017 and at that time I was 19. I'm 24 now, graduated and I feel like a different person than I was then.

     I followed the safehub communities of places like Arapaima, Nelsonia, Korea1, Violet, and realized how those places can become cesspits. People there sharing real life information, dogging on one another day-in day-out, holding signs with pictures of their kids or dox information. I'm not proud to admit that I have participated in the community, but I became friends with a lot of those people. I noticed some of them were either proudly or secretly struggling with mental illness and I wanted to befriend them, so they'd have someone. As a young guy, I took to wanting to become popular through making people laugh and bringing joy to them. What this got me into was bad mouthing others, as per the nature of those communities and being vocally negative. The community and my problems at home I was growing up with (familial issues), the behavior just grew like a wildfire. I've spent plenty of cash on this game and soon after created a second account, a lady avatar that I could dress up and make all fancy with nice mesh etc. That account days later was met with an immediate ban (not really a ban, there was no email, just went logging into the account it states "your account is on hold"). Soon after my main was met with the same "on hold" message.

     I sought out answers and every ticket I've placed since is met with a copy and pasted response about my account being used to harass others online, and that my access is terminated. I never had the chance to have a genuine conversation with any Linden Lab employees, tickets would get closed one after the other for 5 years now. Since my "on hold" first time termination, I've returned to SL on over 200 accounts by now, but I've definitely matured and furthered away from any negative emotions I use to put forward. I understand that "ban-evading" is against the rules, but I never received a response, an answer, or explanation. It could be that the email tied to the account has been hijacked since, years ago, I don't know.

     It's just everytime I return to the game, I just think about the amount of time I'd be willing to spend positively all across the grid, and then I just end up remorseful, regretting my actions and begging to be unbanned. It's not like I killed someone, I don't believe I deserve practically life in Second Life prison for my association or actions I can't recall? I'm sorry for any bad behavior I may have done. I've grown, I don't even have the time I did anymore to sit there and project negative feelings online, I'm caught up working my job in healthcare now.

     My username is exlyndro.resident, and I hope this post goes somewhere so that maybe someday, 5 years after my ban, I may be unbanned. 

Quoted for posterity.

[Mollymews]

16 minutes ago, Bloodflowers174 said:

Any time I put in a ban appeal it was closed, there was a stint where I was more aggressive about it because years had gone by. I just was never given my chance to be appealed, it was always overseen by one or two people who closed the tickets immediately.

see Section 10. Dispute Resolution and Arbitration of the Linden Lab ToS

it provides a real world procedure to escalate an appeal

https://www.lindenlab.com/tos

[Bloodflowers174]

4 minutes ago, Mollymews said:

see Section 10. Dispute Resolution and Arbitration of the Linden Lab ToS

it provides a real world procedure to escalate an appeal

https://www.lindenlab.com/tos

This is a great idea if this forum post and another ticket might not work. I think I'm going to have to ultimately give that a try. If not theres always the idea of starting fresh, making a new account and subbing for premium.

I sent in a compassionate ticket earlier today, with my name censored, trying to be as real and genuine with LL as I possibly can because I do want to return to the game. Again, the same copy and pasted response I was met with.

[Coffee Pancake]

1 minute ago, Mollymews said:

see Section 10. Dispute Resolution and Arbitration of the Linden Lab ToS

it provides a real world procedure to escalate an appeal

https://www.lindenlab.com/tos

But that's part of the problem.

Banned. Lawyer up and make a claim regarding damages! WTH?

Banned. Your account will unlock in XXX days. So long as you keep meeting your obligations regarding land and the like, your stuff will all still be present right where you rezzed it when you get back. Don't and it wont and will get returned as per normal procedure. See you in XXX days.

If that's not acceptable, then do the arbitration thing.

[Paul Hexem]

27 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

All the more reason for LL to keep banning them until they either get bored or grow up.

Waste of time and resources.

[Mollymews]

7 minutes ago, Bloodflowers174 said:

This is a great idea if this forum post and another ticket might not work. I think I'm going to have to ultimately give that a try. If not theres always the idea of starting fresh, making a new account and subbing for premium

 

if you create a new account, without having gone thru the arbitration process first and Linden have allowed you back onto their Service thru this process, then you will have committed a second breach
 

Quote

 

3.4 Other Eligibility Requirements for Use of the Service.

You may not use the Service (i) if you have been terminated from the Service by Linden Lab (including, for avoidance of doubt, if any Account of yours has been terminated); or (ii) at any time if you are a person barred from receiving the Service under applicable law.

 

 

[kirishimarabbit]

44 minutes ago, Bloodflowers174 said:

I've returned to SL on over 200 accounts by now

I would imagine this would make Lindens Labs less likely to hear you out. I can't tell you what to do, but if I were you I'd stop making accounts and do whatever is in your power to speak to LL regarding your original ban. They know you're ban evading and considering you are still knowingly breaking the rules, they probably have little time to hear you out. 

That's not to say you don't deserve another chance. I truly don't know, you very well could! I'm just saying how I would view it were I LL. 

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

Some MMO:s talk about bans are not discussed on the open boards and results of the thread being locked and/or move to their equivalent of the "Tossed Threads" section in the staff area.  I have seen that here too and it's possible a Mole will come by and do that.