If people want privacy so bad they put up ban lines...

[Setsuki Takeda]

On 3/10/2022 at 12:30 PM, Istelathis said:

I really wish LL implemented something like Blizzard's phasing, I just think it would solve a lot of people's problems.  It is practically already in SL as you can hide avatars outside of your parcel.  Doing it this way, would give people who want privacy the privacy they desire while letting the explorers of SL explore unhindered by orbs and ban lines.  

A simple group option, that shows you as invisible to others outside of that group and likewise everyone else invisible to you.  No trace of others when you want to be left alone.  If they really wanted to push the envelope, you could also make it so furniture and items likewise only display for people wearing the group tag.

If we're going to go that route why not instanced private build areas, not part of specific regions, like a 1024-4096 area you can pay on that is not "in range" of other parcels and can be reached only by teleporting with a whitelist/blacklist option for granular control of access like a private region without the extreme expense of setting up a server and paying full tier on it?

 

It cuts out the best part of the mainland in my book, the random visitors and people wandering in off the road to look around, but...

 

People who want privacy, though, would have it. Since they wouldn't be adjascent to public areas there'd be no overlap and targeting or avatars who were minding their own business by security seeking to create something similar in function to a private instance in a shared multi-user space.

[Istelathis]

41 minutes ago, NanashiNyx said:

If we're going to go that route why not instanced private build areas, not part of specific regions, like a 1024-4096 area you can pay on that is not "in range" of other parcels and can be reached only by teleporting with a whitelist/blacklist option for granular control of access like a private region without the extreme expense of setting up a server and paying full tier on it?

It would require less resources, as everyone and everything would be on the same sim.  In phasing, everything and everyone is still located on the same server but there is a toggle to as who can see each other or even objects.  The objects that are chosen to be phased for example, would still count against your total LI even if they could only be viewed and used by members with the group tag active.  Likewise, a region that could only hold 40 people would still only be able to contain those 40, phased in or out.  

I would love instanced properties though.

 

Edit:

Here is a brief overview of how Blizzard does it:

https://wowwiki-archive.fandom.com/wiki/Phasing

Now, I am thinking of other applications this can be used for, with gaming in SL.  A single region can be arranged in multiple ways, depending on what group tag you are wearing.  I'm off in dreamland again, thinking of the possibilities 🥰

Edited March 12, 2022 by Istelathis

[Aethelwine]

2 hours ago, Sylvia Tamalyn said:

As opposed to people in this thread insisting that those who use orbs, etc. are all sorts of awful, big bad griefy meanies. That's not damaging to "community" at all. Got it!

I haven't noticed anyone saying that and certainly not me. I have been very careful to try to give some balance in my responses and allow for the many ways in which security can be used for example when clearly marked out that is not anti-social.

There are good uses for orbs, like I think Prok pointed out or someone did in response to them, orbs are often the only way for landlords to give tenants eject rights on their land.

 

[Aethelwine]

1 hour ago, Mollymews said:

Linden do provide a visual clue in the viewer as you are showing. The yellow banline tape

a question for Linden is could this be done in another less visually obtrusive way, How I dunno yet

 setting this to one side for the moment

the viewer does provide an alternative - Show parcel boundaries in the view.  A issue with this is that often the parcel boundaries don't show thru the water, or show on land where the lines can be obscured by rezzed objects

i wonder whether parcel boundaries (when enabled) could be rendered last, so that in the scene above the parcel boundaries are drawn on top of the water, and drawn over rezzed objects

Another issue with this, is that banlines are so rarely seen on waterways that when people do find them like, in Diamonds example it is a nasty surprise.

A clear visual clue like displaying them as a 5m wall in the same way a prim would be displayed would make for a huge improvement. Often they don't display until it is too late or at all if they are on a region boundary. 

[Sylvia Tamalyn]

1 hour ago, Aethelwine said:

I haven't noticed anyone saying that and certainly not me.

I'd invite you to read again, but it doesn't really matter since I'm out of the debate. Tonight I got rid of the orbs on all my private Mainland parcels, and changed access via the about land box to "group only". I figured I might as well earn that "anti-social" label!

[Setsuki Takeda]

4 hours ago, Aethelwine said:

There are good uses for orbs, like I think Prok pointed out or someone did in response to them, orbs are often the only way for landlords to give tenants eject rights on their land.

 

Yes, when I had more land and there were rentals there were CasperSafe orbs linked to each one so the renter could manage them. They were all in the "private" area, located in skyboxes between 2000-3000m, no security was allowed on the ground but everyone had their own "bedroom" that was out of chat range of other rooms and had its own limited range security set so the ground, air, and space zones were still fully navigable and open to anyone (who had not been placed on a regional ban list) to get away from things and not be disturbed.

Plus, I have a M rating that I enforce, nudity is allowed (though I prefer people keep it in context, not just wander around naked, you look strange standing at a market booth by the side of the highway with nothing on XD) but open sex acts in a public area (and rezzing adult poseballs on the ground because all the furniture is PG) would get you booted.

Skyboxes, though, had the CasperTecxh teleporter linked to the renter so the pad in the office (and the experience teleport door in their home) would take them to *their*  private room. Adult content was allowed there since it was *not* public access and you needed to be a regional owner/officer, current renter, or invited by one to enter that altitude range.

 

The idea was basically to allow people to decorate their row house to entertain visitors and show off what they had done to anyone who cared to look, but allow them to have a private area, just contained in a zone that no sane person uses to travel. Space flight is normally 3500-4000,, air flight is normally under 500m but can get up near 1000m, and the ground around here is *about* 80m.

[Aethelwine]

4 hours ago, Sylvia Tamalyn said:

I'd invite you to read again, but it doesn't really matter since I'm out of the debate. Tonight I got rid of the orbs on all my private Mainland parcels, and changed access via the about land box to "group only". I figured I might as well earn that "anti-social" label!

What I see in the discussion is the opposite to be honest, Continued assertions of the rights of individual land owners to disregard the context they are living in, and what their neighbours are trying to do regardless of the consequences. And that that person should be immune from judgment or criticism. Something I find profoundly offensive and hypocritical.

Do as you wish, as I have said umpteen times and you have ignored. For me people can have ban lines and security without being anti-social. But there are cases where they set up traps for travellers where they in my mind and in those snared in them's view clearly are.

 

Edited March 12, 2022 by Aethelwine

[Sylvia Tamalyn]

[Ardy Lay]

21 hours ago, Aethelwine said:

You also know Linden lab give us the tools to grief people with replicating spammers, to target people with particles. Just because the tools are there doesn't mean it is okay to use them.

If people do as you say and should never set foot outside a linden passageway on their vehicle then everyone loses so much, the landowners that build bypasses and through ways. The collective of landowners that have built a passageway across the top of nautilus could not be enjoyed because there is no Linden Passageway there, the passage is created by the collective will of the 20 or more landowners opening their land up along that route.

That narrow one dimensional view of rights has us losing so much freedom and so much opportunity as land owners and as a group to make a more creative and fulfilling world.

The Gods (Linden Lab) gave to us, Premium Membership Residents, the ability to acquire 'land" from Linden Lab and other Residents and included the ability prevent other Residents from building on this 'land' if we choose.  You know this.  You cannot build on my land.

[Aethelwine]

3 hours ago, Ardy Lay said:

The Gods (Linden Lab) gave to us, Premium Membership Residents, the ability to acquire 'land" from Linden Lab and other Residents and included the ability prevent other Residents from building on this 'land' if we choose.  You know this.  You cannot build on my land.

Huh? What has that to do with anything I or anyone else on the thread has said?

Edited March 13, 2022 by Aethelwine

[Mollymews]

22 hours ago, Aethelwine said:

A clear visual clue like displaying them as a 5m wall in the same way a prim would be displayed would make for a huge improvement. Often they don't display until it is too late or at all if they are on a region boundary. 

on the first

for terrain and water vehicle drivers then a 5m wall would be ok.  For aviators and self-flyers then be problematic, hard to see when 50 meters up in the air

thinking about this tho, a reduction in the height size of the big wall of tape. Like what if there were only 3 lines of tape drawn, where the middle one is drawn at camera level, and one above and one below

on the second

this has been raised a lot of times. Coffee thru their work with Catznip has spoken about this a lot. If the viewer could get banline info in the same way other parcel info can be gotten, then it could be shown on the Catznip minimap a whole lot sooner, which would be a real blessing for travelers

 

[Cinnamon Mistwood]

As irritating as I find ban lines and 0 second security orbs, I just can't bring myself to think it's a good idea to take that away from other paying customers.  They have just as much right to their privacy (no matter where they bought a parcel) as I do to drive/fly/boat around public areas. 

Do some people use their locations to purposely block others? Yes, I am sure that some do. 

Am I sometimes thrown into a ban line or someone's security orb zone because of lag (and bad driving)?? Yes, it happens. 

I don't like being teleported home or losing my vehicle and starting all over.  I still don't see that I have a right to all of SecondLife's regions. I don't have a right to go through land someone else pays for and maintains - not even if it's because of lag or bad driving and not even if they have all that security just to laugh at my plight.

I will, however, AR builds that block PUBLIC waterways and roads.

[ArgontheDevil Ormega]

19 hours ago, Aethelwine said:

What I see in the discussion is the opposite to be honest, Continued assertions of the rights of individual land owners to disregard the context they are living in, and what their neighbours are trying to do regardless of the consequences. And that that person should be immune from judgment or criticism. Something I find profoundly offensive and hypocritical.

Do as you wish, as I have said umpteen times and you have ignored. For me people can have ban lines and security without being anti-social. But there are cases where they set up traps for travellers where they in my mind and in those snared in them's view clearly are.

 

You may judge all that you wish.  But you must not be so foolish as to think that that judgement matters.  As an anti-social bastard myself I rather like security globes set to instant home over ban lines.  You can set up the security orb with no warning and then have your fence a meter inside your land.  A person goes on the land next door, walks up to the fence and BANG!  Great fun.

[Aethelwine]

2 hours ago, ArgontheDevil Ormega said:

You may judge all that you wish.  But you must not be so foolish as to think that that judgement matters.  As an anti-social bastard myself I rather like security globes set to instant home over ban lines.  You can set up the security orb with no warning and then have your fence a meter inside your land.  A person goes on the land next door, walks up to the fence and BANG!  Great fun.

Personal opinions might not matter to you, but they are important, they are a part of what makes us human and what allows people to come together as a community to work together for collective benefit.

[Aethelwine]

6 hours ago, Mollymews said:

on the first

for terrain and water vehicle drivers then a 5m wall would be ok.  For aviators and self-flyers then be problematic, hard to see when 50 meters up in the air

thinking about this tho, a reduction in the height size of the big wall of tape. Like what if there were only 3 lines of tape drawn, where the middle one is drawn at camera level, and one above and one below

on the second

this has been raised a lot of times. Coffee thru their work with Catznip has spoken about this a lot. If the viewer could get banline info in the same way other parcel info can be gotten, then it could be shown on the Catznip minimap a whole lot sooner, which would be a real blessing for travelers

 

Not being much of a flier myself I am not sure the extent of my sympathy for fliers caught in ban lines. A 50m no fly zone above property doesn't seem so unreasonable. But a case could certainly be made for some visible marker at the top of the banline. It is an interesting discussion for others on how that would be best implemented.

Where I do have more sympathy is zero second orbs that extend the entire height of the parcel. They are excessive and recognised as such, at least in Bellisseria. I think the difficulty is perhaps whether the resource needed for policing a prohibition on them is worthwhile. I am inclined to think it would be, but only they really know how much resource they require to do that in Bellisseria, and by extension the rest of mainland to make that judgment. 

Edited March 13, 2022 by Aethelwine

[Setsuki Takeda]

Doesn't "group owned" land have a full build-height ban when set to private? I know I've run into invisible walls *much* higher than 50m, I tend to *try* cruising at about 250-300m over the terrain and I get "only group members are allowed in this parcel" when I'm above the ban line height.

I had a friend who lived next to me when I had a public space on a sky platform when I was in a private region, they set up flack cannons to target people who entered their land because the ban lines didn't keep people from flying over to poke around their area.

So far the only air vehicle I have purchased is the Rubber Bunny Blimp, it is *very* smoothly scripted and travels at a low rate of speed rather than having a minimum to keep your plane in the air so I can *usually* dodge things trying to navigate around.

But then you get people like the one who bought land next to a major airport and put up giant invisible walls in the sky on the approach to the runway...

The sheer level of low IQ trolling (I can appreciate a good gotcha, but put some effort into it FFS) in most online spaces makes one weep for the state of humanity.

[Aethelwine]

50 minutes ago, NanashiNyx said:

Doesn't "group owned" land have a full build-height ban when set to private? I know I've run into invisible walls *much* higher than 50m, I tend to *try* cruising at about 250-300m over the terrain and I get "only group members are allowed in this parcel" when I'm above the ban line height.

I had a friend who lived next to me when I had a public space on a sky platform when I was in a private region, they set up flack cannons to target people who entered their land because the ban lines didn't keep people from flying over to poke around their area.

So far the only air vehicle I have purchased is the Rubber Bunny Blimp, it is *very* smoothly scripted and travels at a low rate of speed rather than having a minimum to keep your plane in the air so I can *usually* dodge things trying to navigate around.

But then you get people like the one who bought land next to a major airport and put up giant invisible walls in the sky on the approach to the runway...

The sheer level of low IQ trolling (I can appreciate a good gotcha, but put some effort into it FFS) in most online spaces makes one weep for the state of humanity.

Above 50m any banline you encounter is because of being blacklisted. It might be that an orb has done that.

https://sl-aviation.fandom.com/wiki/Ban-line

[Istelathis]

I actually prefer it when I am insta banned from an orb, it means I will not be teleported again while I am out travelling around.  I remember the first time I saw lines high up in the sky and thought it was weird, later I found that I was simply banned from the parcel likely via the orb in the past while I was exploring.  I find it as  courteous of the land owner to put up a boundary between me and their orb of frustration.

Edit:
Sometimes I wish we could have the option to simply erect the ban lines for ourselves, I would rather not enter someone's property that does not want it to be entered and rather than risk being insta teleported out when I am not paying attention I could just blacklist their property to prevent it from occurring in the first place.  

Edited March 13, 2022 by Istelathis

[Setsuki Takeda]

42 minutes ago, Istelathis said:

Sometimes I wish we could have the option to simply erect the ban lines for ourselves, I would rather not enter someone's property that does not want it to be entered and rather than risk being insta teleported out when I am not paying attention I could just blacklist their property to prevent it from occurring in the first place.  

It would be nice to scan for security orbs...

 

Though you can set them to *not* be aggressive, I use them on my own land for blacklist bans, mostly ToS violators and griefers, but a few people who just rub me the wrong way. It's actually a pretty short list and mostly self-professed "pro doms with RL experience!"

[Qie Niangao]

44 minutes ago, Istelathis said:

Sometimes I wish we could have the option to simply erect the ban lines for ourselves, I would rather not enter someone's property that does not want it to be entered and rather than risk being insta teleported out when I am not paying attention I could just blacklist their property to prevent it from occurring in the first place.  

This is interesting, and something that @Mollymews' earlier pseudocode brought to mind: Could orbs have a setting that preemptively and temporarily blacklist-bans every unauthorized avatar appearing on the region (presumably not yet intruding on the banned parcel)? This would obviate ejecting or teleporting home any intruders because there simply could never be any intruders, extending built-in "privacy" to skyboxes. And if we ever got the dearly sought feature of vehicles simply bouncing off parcels where riders are banned, it would make vehicle travel infinitely less treacherous even at altitude.

The immediate suggestion would be to use existing LSL functions, but if this has broad utility, maybe it should be a built-in land setting.

(I'd never use it myself because all my Mainland is always as open as I can keep it, modulo actual griefers, so I have no grounds to judge the real usefulness of any privacy measures.)

[Mollymews]

6 hours ago, NanashiNyx said:

I know I've run into invisible walls *much* higher than 50m

in this case, the parcel owner has added us specifically to their land ban list. When so the banlines go all the way up to 5000 meters

i have been specifically banned by some parcel owners.  Sometimes for what is a good reason from their pov

like one time I was trying to win this vehicle race.  In one place on the road, I had to drive round this corner on a region boundary.  Because crossing lag I would fall off the road on to their property. It didn't help that the race vehicle (which I never owned) spewed lots of exhaust particles (so couldn't turn them off)

on the third time round (and fall off the road again) the parcel owner ban hammer me (added me to the land ban list). Their place was this a quite nice rentals village property. And each time I fell off the road spewing particles all over, the  owner was present, so were some tenants and their friends. So on the next time (4th time) I fell off the road, I crashed into the newly erected banline.  The owner never said anything to me, and I never said anything to them, in that oh! well way

i thought the owner was quite tolerant really.  They let me have 3 goes at it before they went I think we all done here for today. Which was probably right

[Mollymews]

7 hours ago, Aethelwine said:

Not being much of a flier myself I am not sure the extent of my sympathy for fliers caught in ban lines. A 50m no fly zone above property doesn't seem so unreasonable. But a case could certainly be made for some visible marker at the top of the banline. It is an interesting discussion for others on how that would be best implemented

people who do fly consistently below the banline box height are self-flyers (press viewer Fly button). So they need some visual indication that they can't fly across a blocked flight path parcel

[Mollymews]

5 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

The immediate suggestion would be to use existing LSL functions, but if this has broad utility, maybe it should be a built-in land setting

i would quite like a way to get the agent count, so don't have to get a list if is not needed. Like:

integer llGetAgentCount(integer scope). Where scope has the same params as llGetAgentList

 

using parcel controls to block everyone from the ban box area, except for some people not necessarily in a land group, then we can do this now by untick Access Everyone, untick Access Group and add those with access to the Allow Access land list

 

another thought with regard to privacy on a shared region

if Linden were to make significant changes to parcel ban controls then I would like the ability to move the ban box to the top of the sky. So that we can either have a ban box at ground level or at the top of the sky. Pick one, we can't have both at the same time. Avatar visibility works the same way in the sky box as it does on the ground

 

[Paul Hexem]

The biggest mistake LL made, in my mind, was not setting up any kind of building codes or zoning guidelines on mainland at all.

The very act of putting in protected roadways and waterways implies that they have or had some kind of specific use for that specific land in mind. By allowing uncontrolled chaos around it, that intended use goes almost entirely right out the window.

Bellisseria-like restrictions should be in place within XX meters of protected LL pathways, with the guidelines changing as you move away from crossings and travel zones.

At this point, thanks to all the unfettered selfishness and narcissism, the mainland has become a blight of land flippers, people that forgot they're paying for a parcel from 2012, and the people that ruined it. With the occasional die hard still in there, complaining how mainland is ruined and using the protected pathways as intended is painful.

[Sparkle Bunny]

10 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

The very act of putting in protected roadways and waterways implies that they have or had some kind of specific use for that specific land in mind.

I take the view that the Lindens built the roads for people to travel along, whether on foot or by pod or in their own vehicle, and that if you've chosen to buy or rent a roadside parcel you've done so either because you want passing traffic (you're a shop, or an art exhibit, or a GTFO hub) or because you're a road user yourself (and therefore know that lag exists and crashes happen). So I don't stray from roads when I'm exploring. If you want to play stupid games with zero-second orbs away from public thoroughfares, knock yourself out. This thread is about people who are using Linden-provided tools to prevent people from using Linden-provided builds as intended.

Ideally there would be some kind of questionaire for new Premium signups like there used to be for mesh upload, so that you couldn't buy land without demonstrating a basic understanding of things like setting build permissions, keeping sounds within your parcel boundaries, what encroachment is, what roads are for and so on. But nobody's going to put any roadblocks up to collecting people's money, so Mainland continues to be what it is.