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17 minutes ago, Syo Emerald said:

@Prokofy Neva You know, sometimes I feel like you want to dominate a discussion by writing the most long winded answer possible without actually adressing whatever you have quoted. You waffle on and on and I paitently read, hoping that somewhere in there is actually something that is a response to what I wrote... but nope. After a lot of irrelevant information comes your conclusion, that we are all offended because they dared to ask for ethnicity/race and that this is wrong, because its normal for Americans. Glory to the perfect by default american surveys!

Hint: My criticism wasn't about the question existing at all. 

Hint: I'm answering not just you in my reply because answering every single separate person in a thread creates many answers and makes people like you even more upset and even more likely to believe that I am "wanting to dominate a discussion." I'm just writing my thoughts, as you are, and if they are long-winded, well, don't read them. As Quartz Mole has said, you aren't required to read or respond to every comment in a thread or every thread. 

Indeed, I'm addressing every point made, but trying to zoom out to show a picture that I think is one people in other countries just don't think about or get. The whites are not a titular nationality in the US. There isn't a titular nationality. Hispanics are in a separate question all their own because of the huge percentage in the population, and the fastest growing demographic 18 and over. "European" is not a nationality or an ethnicity but a political or continental designation that therefore cannot be put in a survey form question about race or ethnicity.

Occasionally you will find elaborate surveys with another question about "heritage" where you would then pick an answer like "Irish" or "African" but not "European" which is overly broad.

I realize that it's the norm to believe every evil thing about anyone else on the forums, especially me, but fortunately I almost never abuse report any of you, so you all have your way clear to keep doing what you do which is to first make a caricature of me, then whistle to your friends to ridicule and attack me, then whistle to the Lindens in an AR to warn or ban me. 

What's actually happening here as anyone can see just by scrolling through the post is that everyone in the thread sounded off with derision or even anger and disgust about this survey -- except me, who attempted to explain that this is a normalized phenomenon to have questionnaires *of this nature*.

There's *another* debate to be had for those that accept that yes, this is normal culture here, whether this cultural artifact was rightly applied in the SL context. And right or wrong, the Lindens, who are actually one of the most diverse and internationalized companies in Silicon Valley, with not merely Americans as their employees, proceeded with this survey in a perfectly normal manner with what seems normal to them.

If YOUR criticism isn't about "the question existing at all," *other people in the thread had exactly that criticism*. 

So what is your goal here? To get the Lindens to retract this survey? The real prejudice here as I've said repeatedly is nothing about race or ethnicity or nationality but about income -- like most marketing surveyors, they will dump the low income data as it isn't relevant to PURCHASES.

Or is your goal to just have another whack at Americans? Nothing in my comments indicate that this style of survey is perfect, or suitable for imposing on the world, or any hegemonic thing whatsoever. It's merely an explanation of something so many were shocked and angered by: this is the norm, like it or not.

 

 

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How can such questions be answered accurately when the "modern media & friends" keep changing the description of people originating from particular regions?
A prime example is that people from the middle east are now commonly included in the "Asian" category.
This started in England with the BBC, then Europe and now our own Flagship media of, (high school level journalism), excellence,
the ABC. 🙄🤔
Like good old, (trustworthy😖 convicted paedo), Rofl Harris said: Trust British Paints? Sure can!.

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18 minutes ago, Maryanne Solo said:

How can such questions be answered accurately when the "modern media & friends" keep changing the description of people originating from particular regions?
A prime example is that people from the middle east are now commonly included in the "Asian" category.
This started in England with the BBC, then Europe and now our own Flagship media of, (high school level journalism), excellence,
the ABC. 🙄🤔
Like good old, (trustworthy😖 convicted paedo), Rofl Harris said: Trust British Paints? Sure can!.

It actually started with the UN, not the UK and the BBC. As long as I can remember in my adult life, some 50 years, the UN has designated the Middle East region as  part of "Asia". This is accepted as a standard at the UN and not perceived as something "constantly changing" or being any kind of function of "modern media".

The UN is hardly dominated by the UK. To be sure, the UK is one of the 5 permanent members. But there has never been a British secretary general of the UN, so you could not blame the British in that sense, despite their colonial heritage. 

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6 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Like all surveys of this type, they will choose those they think have SPENDING POWER. That's all it's about.

Ummm, you're saying Europeans don't have spending power? ;)

  

6 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

But I could understand that if LL, which obviously has this information, targets only those they view as the bulk of their population, they won't care. It's strictly pragmatic and they won't care if anyone thinks it is stupid or insensitive.

I do actually think they care. My impression is that Linden Lab really wants SL to be international and I think they've shown that on many occasions. There's genuine goodwill there and also of course a desire to broaden SL's market potential across the world. But they don't understand international; they tend to think of the world as just a smaller version of the USA.

Seeing this as a content creator, LL has made a lot of big and small attempts to create themes from various nationalitites over the years and they all end up as Disneyland/Hollywood mockups with only a superficial resemblance to the real thing. The only exception I can think of, is Nautilus, as it was originally planned that is. Underneath all the New Age mumbo-jumbo it shows some genuine understanding of ancient Greek mythology and mediterrean traditions.

We all have our cultural biases, that can't be avoided. It's been imprinted onto you ever since day day you were born and you can only grow up once. The trick is to aknowledge your limitations and recognise the fact that you don't know very much about other cultures than the one you were born into.

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1 hour ago, ChinRey said:

Ummm, you're saying Europeans don't have spending power? ;)

  

I do actually think they care. My impression is that Linden Lab really wants SL to be international and I think they've shown that on many occasions. There's genuine goodwill there and also of course a desire to broaden SL's market potential across the world. But they don't understand international; they tend to think of the world as just a smaller version of the USA.

Seeing this as a content creator, LL has made a lot of big and small attempts to create themes from various nationalitites over the years and they all end up as Disneyland/Hollywood mockups with only a superficial resemblance to the real thing. The only exception I can think of, is Nautilus, as it was originally planned that is. Underneath all the New Age mumbo-jumbo it shows some genuine understanding of ancient Greek mythology and mediterrean traditions.

We all have our cultural biases, that can't be avoided. It's been imprinted onto you ever since day day you were born and you can only grow up once. The trick is to aknowledge your limitations and recognise the fact that you don't know very much about other cultures than the one you were born into.

Um, once again Chin, I'm saying "European" is not a category for race or ethnicity. Because it's simply not. I's too broad. Do you actually think otherwise? It's a political or geographical designation. "European" encompasses numerous races and ethnicities. Did they have a box for "zip code", which Canadians would fill in with "postal code"? Europeans could, too. I don't recall. Likely they did. Or did you want them to have "European" mean white? How would you suggest that this survey capture "European," which they obviously can't do with the race/ethnicity question, so that leaves location. Would you be happy if they let you pull down a list of countries and picked out your particular country? Or not?

You can castigate LL or any American entity for "not understanding international," but if they think the world is "just a smaller version of the USA," that is because most of the worlds ethnicities and races and nationalities have emigrated to the US, often for good reason, fleeing religious persecution, pogroms, ethnic cleansings, wars, disasters of all kind. And increasingly, the migration flow is economic in nature, and entrepreneurs in particular say they have an easier time getting a start-up registered and funded. Of course you do find reverse migration of Indians, for examples, who find themselves discriminated against although they are largely represented in Silicon Valley, for example.

Do go on with your explication of how Linden Lab tried to create "themes from various nationalities" over the years. What are the nationalities of Brown and Boardman? We get it that Bellisseria represents not southern Italy, but middle-American suburbia. But do you think they failed on the "Asian" continents? How? Why isn't Russia represented, unless you count those sims with names like "Okhotsk"?  I think this is the sort of thing that no matter how versed LL might be, even hiring people from those nationalities to implement the builds and content, they could never do right, there will always be critics, because virtuality by definition never cracks up to be as much like real life as you wish.

I think the goal of LL -- although they can speak for themselves -- was not to join a self-criticism circle but to survey the purchasing power of their user base to see why they aren't buying more premiums or islands. Maybe they should have put a box about whether you have had COVID and whether you are vaccinated. 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Maryanne Solo said:

A prime example is that people from the middle east are now commonly included in the "Asian" category.
This started in England with the BBC...

No, it started in ancient Greece, they were the ones who decided to define Eurasia as two separate continents.

There is no definable border between Europe and Asia, neither when it comes to culture, ethnicity, biology, geography or geology. But if you want to treat them as separate entities, you have make a border somewhere. To the ancient Greeks it was simple: Asia was all the land to the east, Europe all the land to the west. With a few modifications, that's the definition that still applies today and it puts the middle east firmly in the "Asian" part.

Whether the people there belong in the Asian bag in that strange American racial theory, I can't say. But that bag is so overstreched with vastly different cultures and populations anyway, a few more isn't going to make much difference.

 

9 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Do you actually think otherwise? It's a political or geographical designation. "European" encompasses numerous races and ethnicities. Did they have a box for "zip code", which Canadians would fill in with "postal code"? I don't recall. Or did you want them to have "European" mean white?

No, I'm saying exactly the opposite, those ethnicity categories in the survey question are meaningless because they are too broad, the distinctions between the are arbitary and there are lots of populations who don't fit any of them anyway.

That being said, you can actually talk about a basic shared western Eruopean culture, a remnant of the Roman empire and later germanic, celtic and norse tribes plundering and pillaging and settling allover the place. But even that is a bit shaky and once you start to go eastwards things are getting serioulsy blurred.

 

13 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

You can castigate LL or any American entity for "not understanding international," but if they think the world is "just a smaller version of the USA," that is because most of the worlds ethnicities and races and nationalities have emigrated to the US

...

Oh yes, that too. I have to use Norwegian-Americans as an example here; it isn't the best but it's the one I'm most familiar with. Most Americans with Norwegian ancestry are just Americans. But there are some diehard "super Norwegians" among them. They love everything they perceive as Norwegian but their perception of what that actually means is outdated by a century or two and distorted by retelling from generation to generation. It hardly resembles the nation their ancestors once left and certainly does't resemble what my home country is today. Hearing them talk about how they love Norway is very flattering of course but also very embarrasing since so much of it is beside the point.

I'm not castigating anybody, I'm just stating a fact. You can't escape the culture you grew up in. If you want to embrace and/or emulate another culture well, you have to be aware of tis and accept that there are limits to how well you can do it.

 

36 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

What are the nationalities of Brown and Boardman?

American.

 

37 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

But do you think they failed on the "Asian" continents? How?

Did you ever look at Shareta Osumai? I'm not familiar with Japan but even I can see how off those houses are. As for Jaegeot, what's so Korean about it? I mean to somebody who has a knowledge of Korea beyond having watched M.A.S.H?

Satori is supposed to be a Japanese continent, Corsica French but I honestly can't see anything articularly Japanese/French about them. Nothing at all.

 

43 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Why isn't Russia represented, unless you count those sims with names like "Okhotsk"?  I think this is the sort of thing that no matter how versed LL might be, even hiring people from those nationalities to implement the builds and content, they could never do right

...

Oh yes, I agree. Second Norway is a good example here. It was actually created by two Norwegians but still ended up with a distinctive American flavour because SL is fundamentally based on "white American" culture.

However, even though it's never possible to get it "right", it can be done better. Look at Google and Facebook ... I mean Meta. They have been conciously working on broadening their geographical span and although they are still very much American companies, they have managed to soften it enough to have a wider international appeal. It's a little bit of the same with Microsoft and Apple. Microsoft has been buying up smaller companies all over the world whilst Apple's success relies heavily on their distinctively Scandinavian/German and very un-American designs (created by an Englishman of all things).

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Do we, in fact, know who received this survey?   

The categories looked odd to me, as Brit, in that they're not not much like I'm used to seeing in surveys, official or otherwise, over here,  and I imagine they're not much like the ones German or Brazilian or Russian or Japanese or Israeli residents of SL are used to, either,  but if the survey was sent only to members of a particular demographic, based on our IP addresses or payment details or whatever, that maybe isn't so surprising.

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9 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

It actually started with the UN, not the UK and the BBC. As long as I can remember in my adult life, some 50 years, the UN has designated the Middle East region as  part of "Asia". This is accepted as a standard at the UN and not perceived as something "constantly changing" or being any kind of function of "modern media".

The UN is hardly dominated by the UK. To be sure, the UK is one of the 5 permanent members. But there has never been a British secretary general of the UN, so you could not blame the British in that sense, despite their colonial heritage. 

What you write makes no sense.
I would like to elucidate you about my ancient nation which has a lot of culture but little experience regarding immigration and maybe if you would like to have the patience to listen to me you would understand better the good thread that @Alwin Alcott has cleverly created.
Where I come from, we are still fighting over the etymology of words when it comes to talking about people who belong to a different racial stock.
I myself find many difficulties if when I have to talk about a person who does not belong to my culture or who has a different epidermal pigment. Although I am aware that he was born in my country and above all he pays taxes in the exact same way I do.
This is a very serious speech and certainly cannot be concluded with a joke between you and me, because I know very well that you are not a complete idiot and you would never answer me with an unhappy joke.
It is a very serious matter and no social platform should allow itself to propose such a questionnaire. Believe me that if this had happened in my country there would have been a parliamentary question.
Which is a very serious matter, no company would allow themselves to propose such ignoble crap in my country, even if we have little experience with immigration.

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16 minutes ago, Tama Suki said:

I myself find many difficulties if when I have to talk about a person who does not belong to my culture or who has a different epidermal pigment. Although I am aware that he was born in my country and above all he pays taxes in the exact same way I do.

Why?

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19 minutes ago, Tama Suki said:

What you write makes no sense.
I would like to elucidate you about my ancient nation which has a lot of culture but little experience regarding immigration and maybe if you would like to have the patience to listen to me you would understand better the good thread that @Alwin Alcott has cleverly created.
Where I come from, we are still fighting over the etymology of words when it comes to talking about people who belong to a different racial stock.
I myself find many difficulties if when I have to talk about a person who does not belong to my culture or who has a different epidermal pigment. Although I am aware that he was born in my country and above all he pays taxes in the exact same way I do.
This is a very serious speech and certainly cannot be concluded with a joke between you and me, because I know very well that you are not a complete idiot and you would never answer me with an unhappy joke.
It is a very serious matter and no social platform should allow itself to propose such a questionnaire. Believe me that if this had happened in my country there would have been a parliamentary question.
Which is a very serious matter, no company would allow themselves to propose such ignoble crap in my country, even if we have little experience with immigration.

Well, as your country's ambassador to the UN, then, perhaps he could explain it to you better than I can. I'm reporting on a reality of UN terminology, that's all. Of the many things the UN produces that "make no sense," I guess this wouldn't be my first pick, as there are many others that are more life-threatening.

As for the rest of your remarks, I don't see any point in answering. And fortunately for you, if you live in a democratic country, and your parliament really represents you, and questionnaires requiring people to check off a box regarding their ethnicity or race are simply impermissible, then you'll take it up there, not on the SL forums.

Let me add that I don't share your perception that Alwin Alcott has created a clever thread, but then as Quartz Mole tells us, we are not required to read or respond to every thread.

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3 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Well, as your country's ambassador to the UN, then, perhaps he could explain it to you better than I can. I'm reporting on a reality of UN terminology, that's all. Of the many things the UN produces that "make no sense," I guess this wouldn't be my first pick, as there are many others that are more life-threatening.

As for the rest of your remarks, I don't see any point in answering. And fortunately for you, if you live in a democratic country, and your parliament really represents you, and questionnaires requiring people to check off a box regarding their ethnicity or race are simply impermissible, then you'll take it up there, not on the SL forums.

Let me add that I don't share your perception that Alwin Alcott has created a clever thread, but then as Quartz Mole tells us, we are not required to read or respond to every thread.

I have given my opinion regarding the clever thread created by Alcot and I believe that he did it because he feels a spiritual interestor human if we can say(!).
I tried to make you understand why I share his opinion without putting politics or ideology in the middle. I did this by trying to make you understand my point of view as correctly as possible.
If you believe that my attitude may have somehow forced your personality into some remorse then I ask your forgiveness and I am ready to be punished by any Mole.

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5 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Maybe the questionnaire should have asked country of origin which would seem more relevant to a mulit-national audience.

Racists should simply be kicked in the ass and kicked out of any social network.

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7 minutes ago, Tama Suki said:

I have given my opinion regarding the clever thread created by Alcot and I believe that he did it because he feels a spiritual interestor human if we can say(!).
I tried to make you understand why I share his opinion without putting politics or ideology in the middle. I did this by trying to make you understand my point of view as correctly as possible.
If you believe that my attitude may have somehow forced your personality into some remorse then I ask your forgiveness and I am ready to be punished by any Mole.

No regrets here, champ. No remorse. I personally don't get into position in advance to be punished by Moles. I think they are poorly deployed on the forums and should go on creating beautiful content inworld, not take away content on the forums.

We don't share the same views on probably most if not all things and it is not necessary to explicate this or change this. 

Where I come from, it was considered rude and poor form to discuss certain topics at the dinner table: politics, religion, race, and sex. The forums are like a dinner table, so threads on these themes tend to go badly.

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1 minute ago, Prokofy Neva said:

No regrets here, champ. No remorse. I personally don't get into position in advance to be punished by Moles. I think they are poorly deployed on the forums and should go on creating beautiful content inworld, not take away content on the forums.

We don't share the same views on probably most if not all things and it is not necessary to explicate this or change this. 

Where I come from, it was considered rude and poor form to discuss certain topics at the dinner table: politics, religion, race, and sex. The forums are like a dinner table, so threads on these themes tend to go badly.

Very well then.
We agree that adding bacon to a banana cake with whipped cream is not a good thing.
So the topic we're talking about maybe doesn't belong to you.

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15 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Why?

Because I'm an outdated old brain nut who doesn't like to adjust to the mainstrem and cultural marketing.
When I was younger a few years ago in my part a person with dark skin was politely called "di colore" wich i believe in your part is translated as "colored". Then I don't know when and why it happened but apparently now this thing has changed, now people have to say "black" to be polite.
They are linguistic complications that only create differences between people.
We know the term "race" itself does not make any sense when it comes to humans because we all belong to one race, perhaps it would be correct to speak of ethnicity.
With us you will never find a company that makes a questionnaire listing "ethnicities" by inserting "white" at the end. What the hell does white mean?
Where I was born and raised this term doesn't make any sense.
If such a questionnaire had been done in my country, Italy, do you think someone could have written "white"? Why not "olive" then?
What there is to understand in the thinking of a European when it comes to certain things is very simple.
We have been a patch of different colors for thousands of years. My country like that of everyone else in Europe is what it is thanks to the influence of hundreds of different ethnic groups and cultures that have mixed with each other.
Now don't get me wrong, on the contrary I want to apologize to @Prokofy Neva if last night I was impetuous and I didn't even read all the answers correctly, to be honest I didn't even understand the whole context of the speech and I answered blinded by the smoke that came out of me from the ears, I happen to have this kind of reaction when talking about a certain topic because I have lived for years outside my country and many times I have known the true meaning of the word racism on my skin.
That's certainly not the case with you Prokofy and I understand that well now, so I make my sincere apologies now.
So it is clear that we are not talking about politics.
Let me say the last thing and excuse me if I'm long-winded but I don't have a lot of human relationships recently so maybe I'm just here for that.
In the book of the Italian Constitution there is a very important article.
It is one of the fundamental articles, the third, certainly in the constitution of the United States of America as well as in that of all civilized countries there is an analog that has the same importance.
In short, it says: "All citizens have equal social dignity" and then adds "without distinction of sex, race, language, religion, political opinion, personal and social conditions."
Here you are. That term "race" has been contested several times precisely for the reason I wrote above: There are no different human races, the human race is only one.
But in the end common sense must always win, we know that the constitution was written at a time when we didn't have to worry about being politically correct or fear the reaction of some big influencer who in a social network where opinions are twisted by a synthetic lens would have cunningly created a flame in relation to that idiocy called cancel culture or vice versa.
So somehow we are talking about obsolescence, not mine or that of the Constitution but that of companies that still rely on obsolete, outdated, Spartan ... dying cultural heritage.
Let me be clear that I am not talking about your country but about private companies.
I have a respect and admiration and somehow also envy for your country that you probably don't even imagine.
And I don't want to dwell on the cultural differences and problems that each country has because otherwise I could stay and write here for another 5 hours.
I absolutely cannot afford to venture any opinion from that point of view.
Let's leave politics alone, that's not what I want to talk about.
I just wanted to clarify my position.
A company that creates such a questionnaire in my opinion is run by idiots and it is something very cheap since it is targeting an audience that is spread all over the world.
So if you allow me I have a wave of indignation if a private company distinguishes human beings into races and especially if at the end it adds the term "white".
Maybe you are used to it and you don't notice it, for others, it is an outrage.

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On 1/12/2022 at 9:21 AM, Prokofy Neva said:

Hint: I'm answering not just you in my reply because answering every single separate person in a thread creates many answers and makes people like you even more upset and even more likely to believe that I am "wanting to dominate a discussion." I'm just writing my thoughts, as you are, and if they are long-winded, well, don't read them. As Quartz Mole has said, you aren't required to read or respond to every comment in a thread or every thread. 

Indeed, I'm addressing every point made, but trying to zoom out to show a picture that I think is one people in other countries just don't think about or get. The whites are not a titular nationality in the US. There isn't a titular nationality. Hispanics are in a separate question all their own because of the huge percentage in the population, and the fastest growing demographic 18 and over. "European" is not a nationality or an ethnicity but a political or continental designation that therefore cannot be put in a survey form question about race or ethnicity.

Occasionally you will find elaborate surveys with another question about "heritage" where you would then pick an answer like "Irish" or "African" but not "European" which is overly broad.

I realize that it's the norm to believe every evil thing about anyone else on the forums, especially me, but fortunately I almost never abuse report any of you, so you all have your way clear to keep doing what you do which is to first make a caricature of me, then whistle to your friends to ridicule and attack me, then whistle to the Lindens in an AR to warn or ban me. 

What's actually happening here as anyone can see just by scrolling through the post is that everyone in the thread sounded off with derision or even anger and disgust about this survey -- except me, who attempted to explain that this is a normalized phenomenon to have questionnaires *of this nature*.

There's *another* debate to be had for those that accept that yes, this is normal culture here, whether this cultural artifact was rightly applied in the SL context. And right or wrong, the Lindens, who are actually one of the most diverse and internationalized companies in Silicon Valley, with not merely Americans as their employees, proceeded with this survey in a perfectly normal manner with what seems normal to them.

If YOUR criticism isn't about "the question existing at all," *other people in the thread had exactly that criticism*. 

So what is your goal here? To get the Lindens to retract this survey? The real prejudice here as I've said repeatedly is nothing about race or ethnicity or nationality but about income -- like most marketing surveyors, they will dump the low income data as it isn't relevant to PURCHASES.

Or is your goal to just have another whack at Americans? Nothing in my comments indicate that this style of survey is perfect, or suitable for imposing on the world, or any hegemonic thing whatsoever. It's merely an explanation of something so many were shocked and angered by: this is the norm, like it or not.

 

 

Both Hispanic and European are political/geographical designations and have very little to do with culture or ethnicity.  I think you mean well, but you cant just belive that there are so many separate cultures within the US borders, that require so many tags, and then just blurt out "hispanic", wich means spanish speaking.... like people from Spain, in Europe. Not to mention how different the ethnic makeup and cultural background of different latin american countries is.   The same thing happens when people say "asia" or "asian countries", anyone who has worked with chinese and japanese people can tell you that they are NOT culturally similar, start moving west and the differences are even greater.

We can say that the survey is US centered, very specific in the demographic it targets and completely myopic to anything outside their scope. There is no need to defend the survey by twisting definitions so much that they become meaningless.

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