Newest Firestorm version - lag monster

[Jackson Redstar]

37 minutes ago, Beq Janus said:

"right click - render -> fully" *should* do that

thats my point but it doesn't put them on a  'always render list'  no matter the distance to the camera  - that just makes it so they wont jelly doll, but doesn't change how avi imposters work at all. so in addition to Fully Render it would need an option "never Imposter' as well

Edited August 13, 2021 by Jackson Redstar

[Beq Janus]

10 minutes ago, Jackson Redstar said:

thats my point but it doesn't put them on a  'always render list'  no matter the distance to the camera  - that just makes it so they wont jelly doll, but doesn't change how avi imposters work at all. so in addition to Fully Render it would need an option "never Imposter' as well

seems reasonable (given I thought that was how it was working) I'll try to remember to look at this next time I'm in that code. If you feel like raising me a Jira that'll make sure I don't forget.

[Drakeo]

Fact is I compile and Test several viewers a day.  The FS team has  again surpassed what I thought could be possible

link 1302 object

Quote

[20/1302] Building CXX object llaudio/CMakeFiles/llaudio.dir/llvorbisencode.cpp.o

Just a start then link them to  49800 object CEF3 that we build the Dullhan Host with  and the  63 other libraries  that have hundreds of linked objects.

 You think you can  run  any thing under a Nvidia GTX 1080 and 32 gigs of ram and not use a SSD hard drive so the objects ,animations, mesh objects pulled from

cache a extracted to your gpu  Your are foolish. The latest Firestorm Viewer runs  So much better and less Memory leak.

Uses 8 to 9 gigs of ram at full throttle with 90 avatars.  Mac Uses up to 11 to 12 . Linux  is using 10 gigs.

The SL viewer same issue.  My viewer Little penguin Same issue.  The new simplified cache system is a plus. yYou can thank the FS team for this.

The only Problem we have is Second Life Not posting real system requirements for this  Client. 

So buy a lap top watch it burn up even the best  gaming laptop will fail in this program. so will dual Titian Nividia cards.  because the server will send what you ask for.   or lets  here you complain about lag. Be stupid turn your  Video texture memory up thinking   that is better.

No the bottle neck is your hard drive and cpu as it passes it to the GPU.  faster the cpu the faster the hard drive  and a mid high range video card. Not a laptop.

The heat throttles them back.

Lag is created by the server updating. Not by the Client . My hair has 5000 objects  that is lag as the server updates.

 not the scripts you  freaked out script counters they get passed on to the client.  only an Idiot would put a script counter on his land thinking stop lag.

 it is one script that keeps banging the server like a bird walking on the ground  or the wings of an angle with old texture animation script.

This latest build of Firestorm much faster  much tighter than The LL viewer. This is the first time I could say this in 10 years. 

Quote

Texture memory: Dynamic (2080 MB min / 24% Cache / 10% VRAM)

If your running this texture memory on a 1080  dynamic or  not. You are asking your cpu to move 2 gigs a second from cache to cpu to GPU and then back.

or destroyed either way  either way  it is about hardware and SecondLife  system requirements not being updated.

This falls on marketing and Linden Labs. Not the Dev's or the servers because they are blinding fast.

90 avatars times  5,000 objects on a standard avatar.  Lag will never be created by the client if the correct hardware setting  and hardware is used.

https://www.firestormviewer.org/firestorm-release-6-4-21-64531/#comments

https://jira.firestormviewer.org/secure/Dashboard.jspa

 

[Drakeo]

On 8/4/2021 at 6:15 AM, Jackson Redstar said:

I had last week upgraded to the newest version of FS (Phoenix-Firestorm-Releasex64-6-4-21-64531)

look you have to understand you have a 10 gen intel cpu. The FS build is for 3 gen intel cpu.

This is why I build my own. Then build a windows version and mac version for friends .

The mac version is set to gen 5 and higher Intel cpu's.

This is why FS has the best wiki on building this. They are an old wonderful Windows open software team with roots deep in Linux.

I compile my own libraries for openjpeg for my CPU.

Firestorm 6.4.21 (64531) Aug 11 2021 23:30:40 (64bit / AVX2) (Firestorm-Drakeo) with OpenSimulator support
Release Notes

CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 3700X 8-Core Processor (2200 MHz)
Memory: 32053 MB
Concurrency: 16
OS Version: Linux 5.13.8 #1 SMP Wed Aug 4 13:27:49 CDT 2021 x86_64
Graphics Card Vendor: NVIDIA Corporation
Graphics Card: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1080/PCIe/SSE2
Graphics Card Memory: 8192 MB

OpenGL Version: 4.6.0 NVIDIA 470.63.01

RestrainedLove API: (disabled)
libcurl Version: libcurl/7.54.1 OpenSSL/1.0.2l zlib/1.2.8 nghttp2/1.25.0
J2C Decoder Version: OpenJPEG: 2.5.0, Runtime: 2.5.0
Audio Driver Version: FMOD Studio 2.01.09
Dullahan: 1.8.0.202011061705
  CEF: 81.3.10+gb223419+chromium-81.0.4044.138
  Chromium: 81.0.4044.138
LibVLC Version: 2.2.3
Voice Server Version: Not Connected
Settings mode: Firestorm
Viewer Skin: Firestorm (Grey)
Window size: 1920x1007 px
Font Used: Deja Vu (96 dpi)
Font Size Adjustment: 0 pt
UI Scaling: 1
Draw distance: 128 m
Bandwidth: 500 kbit/s
LOD factor: 3
Render quality: High-Ultra (6/7)
Advanced Lighting Model: Yes
Texture memory: 1024 MB (1)
Disk cache: Max size 2048.0 MB (13.8% used)
Built with GCC version 50500
August 13 2021 15:33:48 SLT

I need nothing over 1024  for super fast crisp rezzing.

[NiranV Dean]

3 hours ago, Drakeo said:

Fact is I compile and Test several viewers a day.  The FS team has  again surpassed what I thought could be possible

link 1302 object

Just a start then link them to  49800 object CEF3 that we build the Dullhan Host with  and the  63 other libraries  that have hundreds of linked objects.

 You think you can  run  any thing under a Nvidia GTX 1080 and 32 gigs of ram and not use a SSD hard drive so the objects ,animations, mesh objects pulled from

cache a extracted to your gpu  Your are foolish. The latest Firestorm Viewer runs  So much better and less Memory leak.

Uses 8 to 9 gigs of ram at full throttle with 90 avatars.  Mac Uses up to 11 to 12 . Linux  is using 10 gigs.

The SL viewer same issue.  My viewer Little penguin Same issue.  The new simplified cache system is a plus. yYou can thank the FS team for this.

The only Problem we have is Second Life Not posting real system requirements for this  Client. 

So buy a lap top watch it burn up even the best  gaming laptop will fail in this program. so will dual Titian Nividia cards.  because the server will send what you ask for.   or lets  here you complain about lag. Be stupid turn your  Video texture memory up thinking   that is better.

No the bottle neck is your hard drive and cpu as it passes it to the GPU.  faster the cpu the faster the hard drive  and a mid high range video card. Not a laptop.

The heat throttles them back.

Lag is created by the server updating. Not by the Client . My hair has 5000 objects  that is lag as the server updates.

 not the scripts you  freaked out script counters they get passed on to the client.  only an Idiot would put a script counter on his land thinking stop lag.

 it is one script that keeps banging the server like a bird walking on the ground  or the wings of an angle with old texture animation script.

This latest build of Firestorm much faster  much tighter than The LL viewer. This is the first time I could say this in 10 years. 

If your running this texture memory on a 1080  dynamic or  not. You are asking your cpu to move 2 gigs a second from cache to cpu to GPU and then back.

or destroyed either way  either way  it is about hardware and SecondLife  system requirements not being updated.

This falls on marketing and Linden Labs. Not the Dev's or the servers because they are blinding fast.

90 avatars times  5,000 objects on a standard avatar.  Lag will never be created by the client if the correct hardware setting  and hardware is used.

https://www.firestormviewer.org/firestorm-release-6-4-21-64531/#comments

https://jira.firestormviewer.org/secure/Dashboard.jspa

 

That is a lot of random jumbled nonsense and really hard to read too.

And the very last part is especially wrong. You will always get bad framerates regardless of your hardware. All your fancy CPU power isn't even utilized and keeps bottlenecking the Viewer. We consumers don't even get access to CPU's that would be able to "eliminate" bad framerates and i doubt these even exist, it would have to be a CPU that has somewhere around 4 cores, the first two ones solely for SL to canibalize with incredibly unrealistic IPC, the other two cores simply to allow windows to do its thing with multi cores and share the workload a bit to prevent other apps from slowing SL down when they happen to take a little bit from the first two cores too. We're talking supercomputers here. No CPU for us consumers is capable of achieving 60 FPS with decently normal settings at all times, there's always places or avatars that will quickly dash this dream. If you think 40 FPS with a couple avatars around at medium/high settings with AMD/Intel's latest flagships is good then boy are you wrong.

[Macedonio Ashley]

Firestorm is ruined forever, i lost half of my FPS too, i cant do smooth videos anymore

[Kathlen Onyx]

53 minutes ago, Macedonio Ashley said:

Firestorm is ruined forever, i lost half of my FPS too, i cant do smooth videos anymore

That's the reason I never update right away when a new version comes out. You can install the old version.

[Macedonio Ashley]

2 hours ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

That's the reason I never update right away when a new version comes out. You can install the old version.

I had the same problem with the previous version, i was using 6.3.9 before and had no lag at all, my FPS at home was over 120, now i barely reach 80, sadly 6.3.9 was blocked.

[Macedonio Ashley]

I can live with the lack of FPS but the microfreezings is the most annoying thing in this crappy version of FS, i would change to Alchemy but there is no phototools options there

[Aishagain]

9 hours ago, Macedonio Ashley said:

the microfreezings is the most annoying thing in this crappy version of FS, i would change to Alchemy but there is no phototools options there

There is something fundamental that is being missed here in these pointless rants.  The issue between FS 6.3.9 and ALL later versions is the change from Windlight rendering to EEP rendering.  That change was forced by Linden Lab, it has nothing whatever to do with the FS devs.  The render pathway that is used now puts a far greater load on the graphics engine within the viewer (both GPU and CPU) and the resultant loss in FPS is unavoidable.  I still have not seen a good argument for the "advantages" of EEP, and I have read the whole of the thread in the technolgy forum on the subject.

As to whether LL should have released EEP in the form they did is still debateable, since it is still far from finished.  The most recent evolution in both the default LL viewer and TPV compiled from it is a small improvement but it is still in need of improvement.  As an aside I would be surprised if Niran Dean could not make a valuable contribution to the improvement of EEP but no doubt the LL devs would still turn their noses up at any suggestions from the TPV community.

As with the changes that accompanied the introduction of Windlight all those years ago, there is a palpable hit to rendering in ALL viewers now and some GPUs just will not cope..'twas ever thus, and I heartily agree that the microstutters introduced by the new render pathway are a right royal PITA.

[Macedonio Ashley]

1 hour ago, Aishagain said:

There is something fundamental that is being missed here in these pointless rants.  The issue between FS 6.3.9 and ALL later versions is the change from Windlight rendering to EEP rendering.  That change was forced by Linden Lab, it has nothing whatever to do with the FS devs.  The render pathway that is used now puts a far greater load on the graphics engine within the viewer (both GPU and CPU) and the resultant loss in FPS is unavoidable.  I still have not seen a good argument for the "advantages" of EEP, and I have read the whole of the thread in the technolgy forum on the subject.

As to whether LL should have released EEP in the form they did is still debateable, since it is still far from finished.  The most recent evolution in both the default LL viewer and TPV compiled from it is a small improvement but it is still in need of improvement.  As an aside I would be surprised if Niran Dean could not make a valuable contribution to the improvement of EEP but no doubt the LL devs would still turn their noses up at any suggestions from the TPV community.

As with the changes that accompanied the introduction of Windlight all those years ago, there is a palpable hit to rendering in ALL viewers now and some GPUs just will not cope..'twas ever thus, and I heartily agree that the microstutters introduced by the new render pathway are a right royal PITA.

I do not see many advantages either, the only positive thing is that now you can share the windlights with other people but graphically it is almost the same. the only difference is that shiny things are a little brighter now. Black Dragon and Alchemy still use the traditional windlight so I don't see why people should have been forced to use this new version when 6.3.9 was working perfectly,

[KjartanEno]

57 minutes ago, Macedonio Ashley said:

I do not see many advantages either, the only positive thing is that now you can share the windlights with other people but graphically it is almost the same. the only difference is that shiny things are a little brighter now. Black Dragon and Alchemy still use the traditional windlight so I don't see why people should have been forced to use this new version when 6.3.9 was working perfectly,

Alchemy devs are working on a new version, available only to testers via their Discord channel, which is based on EEP. The previous release based on WL is quite out of date and should probably not be used.

Singularity has a nightly build released earlier this year (version 8419) that is still based on WL. Older nightlies and the 'official' release are out of date and should probably not be used.

Black Dragon is based on EEP with Niran's enhancements for photography. It isn't advertised as a viewer for lower end, easy rendering usage.

Cool VL Viewer has a switchable renderer. My experience on Linux with an AMD GPU is that its WL mode is as slow as its EEP mode. You may have significantly better results (or not) than mine, so try it for yourself.

[Macedonio Ashley]

13 minutes ago, KjartanEno said:

Alchemy devs are working on a new version, available only to testers via their Discord channel, which is based on EEP. The previous release based on WL is quite out of date and should probably not be used.

Singularity has a nightly build released earlier this year (version 8419) that is still based on WL. Older nightlies and the 'official' release are out of date and should probably not be used.

Black Dragon is based on EEP with Niran's enhancements for photography. It isn't advertised as a viewer for lower end, easy rendering usage.

Cool VL Viewer has a switchable renderer. My experience on Linux with an AMD GPU is that its WL mode is as slow as its EEP mode. You may have significantly better results (or not) than mine, so try it for yourself.

Thanks!

[Aishagain]

I will just, and totally unofficially, restate that the use of EEP rendering was made mandatory by LL and any viewer significantly deviating from the default system is deviating from the "shared experience" that LL is so fond of restating.  Firestorm undertook a "3 versions only" policy after the rules regarding the shared experience were forcibly restated by LLgovernance, but I am actually surprised that LL did not force the "retirement" of 6.3.9 earlier for the afore mentioned reasons.  That "might" have been because they knew that early EEP viewers had significant performance penalties for even high-end systems.

Like most folks I found 6.3.9 with Windlight rendering a far superior viewer in most ways even to 6.4.21, itself a big improvement on the previous two EEP versions.

[Jackson Redstar]

On 8/28/2021 at 9:30 PM, Macedonio Ashley said:

Firestorm is ruined forever, i lost half of my FPS too, i cant do smooth videos anymore

Just have to go super slow on the camera moverments, I can still get smooth cam movements anything above about 10 fps - after that zoom in post

[Henri Beauchamp]

19 hours ago, Aishagain said:

I will just, and totally unofficially, restate that the use of EEP rendering was made mandatory by LL and any viewer significantly deviating from the default system is deviating from the ”shared experience” that LL is so fond of restating

Wrong !

Once more, the ”shared experience” rule (chapter 2k of the TPVP (*)) is only here to avoid breaking things (how they render or work) in others' viewers than in the one breaking that rule. This has been the case, in a distant past, when a TPV implemented secondary attachment points (back in that time there were much less such points and each point could only have one object attached to it) that caused those supplementary attachments to appear floating around the avatar (or attached in their butt, which could look rather funny) in other viewers not supporting that non-standard feature. This is the very and only reason why this rule got implemented.

On the other hand, LL cannot care less about what you render in your own viewer (as long as you do not come back to them to complain about a ”bug” when this is just an unusual feature their official viewer does not implement).

If you wish to render with DoF or without, with shadows or without, with ALM or without, with a fixed, custom or a parcel environment, with an EE or WL renderer, you can do it without any issue whatsoever.

About EE and WL, the Cool VL Viewer offers you the choice between both sets of shaders (and their matching renderer), and this does not break the ”shared experience” of other avatars around yours, since this is exclusively a viewer-side feature that does not have any impact outside your own screen.

And if you want an example of such a viewer-side, non-”rule-2k-breaking” feature with Firestorm, there's the parcel Windlight settings based on a string in the parcel description (which LL elaborated as the Extended Environment); this feature was not supported by LL's viewer, and yet LL never invoked rule 2k..

(*) ”2k. You must not provide any feature that alters the shared experience of the virtual world in any way not provided by or accessible to users of the latest released Linden Lab viewer.” (emphasis mine).

Edited August 30, 2021 by Henri Beauchamp

[Aishagain]

@Henri Beauchamp: Well you might well be correct, Henri, I won't argue.  However since one of the changes that EEP addresses is parcel environment settings at different altitudes and this is something that could NOT be set with windlight rendering.  That being unavailable, I would have thought that since eg I running a Windlight rendering viewer visit a friend's skybox, and this friend has set an altitude dependent environment, I would not see it: surely that breaks the shared experience rules?

In the limit I don't care one way or the other, it was just how I had had it explained to me.

[Solar Legion]

30 minutes ago, Aishagain said:

@Henri Beauchamp: Well you might well be correct, Henri, I won't argue.  However since one of the changes that EEP addresses is parcel environment settings at different altitudes and this is something that could NOT be set with windlight rendering.  That being unavailable, I would have thought that since eg I running a Windlight rendering viewer visit a friend's skybox, and this friend has set an altitude dependent environment, I would not see it: surely that breaks the shared experience rules?

In the limit I don't care one way or the other, it was just how I had had it explained to me.

Some Viewers (such as Firestorm) did indeed have a method for setting different, altitude based Windlight settings. it relied on using up a portion of the Parcel About box however.

Mind, it was still quite a bit more flexible than the current EEP method, allowing for far more granularity and zones to be set than the present EEP setup.

This was allowed at the time because it was functionality that Linden Lab had looked at implementing - they just wanted an 'easier' method.

[Henri Beauchamp]

1 hour ago, Aishagain said:

@Henri Beauchamp: Well you might well be correct, Henri, I won't argue.  However since one of the changes that EEP addresses is parcel environment settings at different altitudes and this is something that could NOT be set with windlight rendering.

Wrong again... The Cool VL Viewer can render EE settings in WL rendering mode or WL settings in EE rendering mode (the settings are translated automatically). This includes altitude-based environment settings. Of course, some EE-only parameters (e.g. non-standard Moon orbits, or Sun and Moon non-standard textures) cannot be rendered in WL mode, but it won't totally break your personal experience, and won't affect at all the ”shared experience” as seen by other users around your avatar.

Quote

That being unavailable, I would have thought that since eg I running a Windlight rendering viewer visit a friend's skybox, and this friend has set an altitude dependent environment, I would not see it: surely that breaks the shared experience rules?

You still did not get what the rule about not ”altering the shared experience of the virtual world” means: it does not imply that you should have the exact same rendering of a scene in all viewers in a given place, but just that by its mere usage, one viewer won't break the experience as seen by other users around (as it has been the case in the past with non-standard attachment points, which in turn prompted the implementation of that rule).

Edited August 30, 2021 by Henri Beauchamp

[Aishagain]

I stand corrected.  I never realised that FS parcel Windlight could be altitude dependent.  Seems I was also misled as to what the "shared Experience" rules were, I am now wiser.

[Qie Niangao]

1 hour ago, Solar Legion said:

Mind, it [Firestorm altitude-dependent Windlight] was still quite a bit more flexible than the current EEP method, allowing for far more granularity and zones to be set than the present EEP setup.

It was more flexible in terms of specific altitudes, but EEP is vastly more flexible when integrated with Experiences, where it can set lighting conditions specific to the volume of a room, for example, and (most exciting) specific to an avatar and over a programmed sequence of lighting effects. For a long time after EEP came out, I had a houseboat parcel where each visitor experienced a sequence of lighting, cloud, and water conditions that felt like a threatening storm rolling in.

(I later reverted that location to region default environment because a Bellisseria parcel is just too small for all the dramatic storm experience to be fun for passersby, even if they do agree to the Experience. Irrelevant to EEP, though, at that location I still offer an Experience-based swim HUD that temp-attaches when somebody falls in the water, despite it being far too easy to swim outside the little parcel and "drown" for lack of Experience.)

[RicDelMoro]

Jackson Redstar has a strong computer and has problems with Firestorm...and the same with others on powerful machines.This proves that the FS EEP versions were not well built.If guys with strong computers are suffering, imagine most with average PCs.It's a shame, I guess the Firestorm team should focus most in performance from now on.Or lots of people will simple change their viewers, I don't want to sound ungrateful, but nobody is forced to play with FS.

[JeromFranzic]

On 8/30/2021 at 12:43 PM, Henri Beauchamp said:

About EE and WL, the Cool VL Viewer offers you the choice between both sets of shaders (and their matching renderer), and this does not break the ”shared experience” of other avatars around yours, since this is exclusively a viewer-side feature that does not have any impact outside your own screen.

This is partly why I'm enjoying using your viewer. I'm getting a bit more fps on average with my GTX 1050 based PC even with some of Cool VL's extra rendering features turned on. Not to mention... I'm beginning to use it quite a lot for photos because of this option you implemented. (Doesn't mean BD's dead to me, but that's a different story... no infighting please LOL... *cough* BD Poser *cough*)