New updated enviroments

[Marianne Little]

19 hours ago, Mercedes Avon said:

I am surprised. I am in the minority here because I  like EEP. I like being able to grab the sun or moon and swing it around and place it wherever I want. Now it doesn't matter if you have that super amazing sunset facing LL home because anyone can easily have a sunset view from any direction now (you could technically do that in the old viewer too but I think it's easier in EEP). And some of those EEP settings on the Marketplace are fun to play with. Someone made a night sky milkyway and another person made what looks like an erupting volcano.

My favorite windlights are Jay's Battlescars off the MP (made for the original viewer) and I imported them into EEP in moments. They look fab - just simply lovely!

I am not experiencing any FPS drops. The windlight does look a big different, but for me it looks better. I do not know how much a graphic card plays a role in what people see. My desktop is quite "juicy" (I am a gaming nerd).  I understand the average person probably doesn't have an expensive set up to play SL (and should not have to).

I will have to try things out on my laptop and see if things are much worse there.

Here is what I see on shared environment on FS EEP.

 

I am bold enough to use your water image as an example of water flowing sideways. How many times have I wanted to change the water so it flows in the direction I want!

https://juicybomb.com/2020/12/08/juicybomb-right-water-eep-settings/

I call this water setting free, even if she takes 1 L for it. I am eager to try, but now I am not feeling well in RL and can't bear the thought of adjusting things in SL when I am sick.

I have never been totally happy with SL water before. I love to live by water, so this looks promising.

[Silent Mistwalker]

Stop twisting my arm! I will update to EEP when I am ready and not before. Which means it won't be until the next release or the one after. I've always done this because bugs and it will never change. 😜

[Chic Aeon]

What we know and think we know at the moment -- all anecdotal evidence cause that's what we've got LOL.

 

1. Some folks are now crashing often and some not even able to log in with the new FS viewer (not that it is the viewer -- just that they never used the Linden EEP viewer).  Many have GREATLY reduced fps. 

2. There are many things still not working correctly which "should" be fixed. These are mostly universal issues effecting MOST citizens regardless of EEP viewer type. 

3. You CAN apparently get contrast in your EEP screenshots if you have a really expensive graphics card -- around $850 as I type this - and that's the card folks, not the computer :D).  See this post:  https://community.secondlife.com/forums/topic/465306-new-updated-enviroments/page/6/?tab=comments#comment-2228344

4. My somewhere in the middle old but dedicated GTX 980 card is "passable" except for the contrast issues and my FPS are exactly the same. So that appears at this point to be the middle ground so to speak. 

 

I am actually very happy that there is at least the possibility to get Windlight quality back with an expensive card. I can buy an expensive card (I was actually thinking of a 3070 based on lots of reports from Sansar folks -- who by nature "have" to have high quality machines). But obviously not everyone can go out and upgrade.  

 

But if we are lucky we have a year an a half or so before Resistance Will Be Futile :D.  And by then "I" at least will probably have a new computer or at least an upgraded card.  

 

So folks that have been commenting on this thread, let's put a bit more data together and see if my assumptions above based partly on this thread and partly talking to friends are close to factual. 

Are the folks crashing or not able to log in on notebooks with integrated graphics? Do the folks with the newest and shiniest cards see EEP much better than the rest of us?   

I think it is important we figure this out. I suspect that SOMEONE in LL is reading this thread and if we actually get some data together it might help them with future decisions --- at least we will feel we have done our part of the process.   

 

Meanwhile after I take some photos I am going to do some more testing with the Linden EEP viewer :D.   

[Penny Patton]

I have a GTX 960.

• No framerate loss that I've noticed.
• No crashing.
• The only login problems I had were due to the big login outtage that happened today, unrelated to any viewer.

[Gage Wirefly]

6 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

What we know and think we know at the moment -- all anecdotal evidence cause that's what we've got LOL.

 

1. Some folks are now crashing often and some not even able to log in with the new FS viewer (not that it is the viewer -- just that they never used the Linden EEP viewer).  Many have GREATLY reduced fps. 

2. There are many things still not working correctly which "should" be fixed. These are mostly universal issues effecting MOST citizens regardless of EEP viewer type. 

3. You CAN apparently get contrast in your EEP screenshots if you have a really expensive graphics card -- around $850 as I type this - and that's the card folks, not the computer :D).  See this post:  https://community.secondlife.com/forums/topic/465306-new-updated-enviroments/page/6/?tab=comments#comment-2228344

4. My somewhere in the middle old but dedicated GTX 980 card is "passable" except for the contrast issues and my FPS are exactly the same. So that appears at this point to be the middle ground so to speak. 

 

I am actually very happy that there is at least the possibility to get Windlight quality back with an expensive card. I can buy an expensive card (I was actually thinking of a 3070 based on lots of reports from Sansar folks -- who by nature "have" to have high quality machines). But obviously not everyone can go out and upgrade.  

 

But if we are lucky we have a year an a half or so before Resistance Will Be Futile :D.  And by then "I" at least will probably have a new computer or at least an upgraded card.  

 

So folks that have been commenting on this thread, let's put a bit more data together and see if my assumptions above based partly on this thread and partly talking to friends are close to factual. 

Are the folks crashing or not able to log in on notebooks with integrated graphics? Do the folks with the newest and shiniest cards see EEP much better than the rest of us?   

I think it is important we figure this out. I suspect that SOMEONE in LL is reading this thread and if we actually get some data together it might help them with future decisions --- at least we will feel we have done our part of the process.   

 

Meanwhile after I take some photos I am going to do some more testing with the Linden EEP viewer :D.   

I have a 150 dollar gpu(Gtx 1650 Super) and I see contrast just fine. Are you sure it's not your monitor/Nvidia panel settings? Nvidia's color profile is not set to full by default, it has to be changed, no matter the gpu as far as I know-in Windows.

I've highlighted the settings that should be changed. You should see a very noticeable difference in the color and contrast by doing this.

[Chic Aeon]

9 minutes ago, Gage Wirefly said:

I have a 150 dollar gpu(Gtx 1650 Super) and I see contrast just fine. Are you sure it's not your monitor/Nvidia panel settings? Nvidia's color profile is not set to full by default, it has to be changed, no matter the gpu as far as I know-in Windows.

I've highlighted the settings that should be changed. You should see a very noticeable difference in the color and contrast by doing this.

I will check that but according to User Benchmarks your card is considerably better than mine (mine for whatever reason NEVER came down in price  -- a mystery).  

So just knowing the difference between your card and my card (assuming we both have the same sort of idea of "contrast") is important. Thanks.  

 

Edited December 14, 2020 by Chic Aeon
spelling

[Sassy Kenin]

Would there be any visual quality difference between AMD and NVIDIA  in regards to topic or has anyone tested for it.

[MoiraKathleen]

5 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

1. Some folks are now crashing often and some not even able to log in with the new FS viewer (not that it is the viewer -- just that they never used the Linden EEP viewer).  Many have GREATLY reduced fps. 

I don't know that this is related to EEP, and I say that because I have been using a 3rd party EEP enabled viewer pretty much since EEP was rolled out, and I have not had problems with crashing or logging in (outside of when I mistype a password, or logins are an issue across the board).   I also didn't experience greatly reduced FPS.    

11 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

3. You CAN apparently get contrast in your EEP screenshots if you have a really expensive graphics card -- around $850 as I type this - and that's the card folks, not the computer :D).

I don't have an "artist's eye",  but depending on which environment I've chosen from the list of pre-defined ones in the library, I haven't really noticed any lack of contrast, or at least not a large enough lack to realize there is a lack.  Any picture that I've posted in the forums since EEP rolled out has been with an EEP enabled viewer.  I have an Nvidia 1060, so not as high-powered a card as Mercedes has.   I actually began to prefer the way my world looked in the EEP viewer than in the non-EEP FS viewer.  The mainland default daylight is still a tad darker when inside a building, but I can switch to a different environment setting if it bothers me for what I'm trying to do.  The default daylight on Bellisseria is fine.   

[Chic Aeon]

4 minutes ago, Sassy Kenin said:

Would there be any visual quality difference between AMD and NVIDIA  in regards to topic or has anyone tested for it.

I think most of us who have been around awhile switched to NVIDIA long ago when LL was particularly anti AMD. So likely not a ton of dedicated AMD card users but that is a VERY good questions.  So far (I really am multitasking here) my assumptions seem to be holding up.   More data. More data LOL.  

 

Back to work. 

[Solar Legion]

AMD CPU (Ryzen 7 2700X), nVidia GPU (GTX 980 TI) and not noticing any sort of color/contrast distortion. Had to tick a setting to restore frame rate (covered elsewhere). Linux user (Zen Kernel, Manjaro Distro, XFCE Desktop Environment, nVidia Proprietary Drivers (DKMS package through Arch Repo)).

Edited December 14, 2020 by Solar Legion

[Gage Wirefly]

30 minutes ago, Sassy Kenin said:

Would there be any visual quality difference between AMD and NVIDIA  in regards to topic or has anyone tested for it.

I was using an Rx 570 before my current gpu and the color quality was great. I can't speak for using AMD with EEP as I never got the chance, but in general for SL it was ok.

[Gage Wirefly]

15 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

AMD CPU (Ryzen 7 2700X), nVidia GPU (GTX 980 TI) and not noticing any sort of color/contrast distortion. Had to tick a setting to restore frame rate (covered elsewhere). Linux user (Zen Kernel, Manjaro Distro, XFCE Desktop Environment, nVidia Proprietary Drivers (DKMS package through Arch Repo)).

It's been my experience in Linux that the range is set to full by default, which is what Windows Nvidia driver *should* do but ...it's Windows. 

[taisiyakarpenko]

I kind of like the EEP as such, but not the 20FPS framedrop on my RTX2060

[Gage Wirefly]

27 minutes ago, taisiyakarpenko said:

I kind of like the EEP as such, but not the 20FPS framedrop on my RTX2060

This would be a problem if it was going very low. Is it? I am seeing 250 on empty sims and around 100 on moderately busy sims-high settings ALM on no shadows. 

[MoiraKathleen]

36 minutes ago, taisiyakarpenko said:

I kind of like the EEP as such, but not the 20FPS framedrop on my RTX2060

There was mention on some of the previous pages about an "FPS draining water related setting" which is the "Occlude objects for water distortion map" on the Graphics -> Rendering tab of FS preferences.  I don't use FS, and don't see that setting in my viewer's preferences, but you might want to check if that is checked or unchecked and set it the other way to see if that makes a difference.   I don't know what the downside of changing that setting is, but if that's the cause of your FPS drop, it may be worth it. 

[taisiyakarpenko]

16 minutes ago, Gage Wirefly said:

This would be a problem if it was going very low. Is it? I am seeing 250 on empty sims and around 100 on moderately busy sims-high settings ALM on no shadows. 

I've become spoiled after i got the new laptop, so I run around with everything maxed out all the time

Dropping from like 80 to 60 in moderately busy places with all the bells and whistles, so I probably do not have anything to complain about (spoiled brat, I know it!) - but I am paranoid about everything that brings my framerate down.

 

4 minutes ago, MoiraKathleen said:

There was mention on some of the previous pages about an "FPS draining water related setting" which is the "Occlude objects for water distortion map" on the Graphics -> Rendering tab of FS preferences.  I don't use FS, and don't see that setting in my viewer's preferences, but you might want to check if that is checked or unchecked and set it the other way to see if that makes a difference.   I don't know what the downside of changing that setting is, but if that's the cause of your FPS drop, it may be worth it. 

I did turn off/on the occlude thing, and that took the loss from 20 in avg to 10 in avg, so it helped a bit

 

Edited December 14, 2020 by taisiyakarpenko

[Chic Aeon]

So  @Gage Wirefly solved MY issue (after well over a year). It would be good to have this documented LOL.  Woot for Gage and Woot for me.  

 

Here is the story with lots of screenshots so that people can see the difference and hopefully get things working better  --- for some anyway.   But I now have contrast on my old card.  Here is the story.

 

I went over to Seaclaid to take some photos. My little house was gone and lots of snow. Snow pretty but dangerous (more on that later). 

After I took my fashion shots I set the lighting to a sky I had already turned into EEP. This is NOT an example of good photography but I didn't want to change ANY sliders. Just use the Windlight as it was.

 

In the FS BOM viewer it looked like this: 

Bad picture. Lots of contrast.

 

In the Linden viewer it looked like this:

You can kinda see why I was not happy. It is definitely NOT the same lighting. 

I crashed out from Seaclaid while getting coffee. Couldn't log back in as the sim was down. Got back in to find lots of new mesh snowfields in the sky. Crashed within 30 seconds. Those pretty flowing mesh snow flurries get me fairly often. 

 

So I logged into Snow Globe to finish my test after switching to NVIDIA display settings (I was set on default). 

Here is a really glary photo using that same Templemore setting; Lots of snow; too much reflection. 

 

And here is the  same shot in the Linden viewer.

Now that is obviously similar to the shots in Seaclaid and it certainly would be GOOD if the skies translated over in a more logical way, but I noticed when the sky moved from the old sky to the new adjustable sky that it went through a period of contrast.  So I adjusted the sun accordingly and got something that had much more contrast than I had been able to get before. 

It obviously isn't as high a contrast as my original  Windlight, but it certainly is contrast. 

Anyone wanting to play with my sky settings (which now to me seem much better LOL) you can find them on the wall for free here:  http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Moon Beach/212/108/2511

 

And here's the "fashion shot" for good measure. 

Edited December 14, 2020 by Chic Aeon
spelling

[Janet Voxel]

3 hours ago, Gage Wirefly said:

I have a 150 dollar gpu(Gtx 1650 Super) and I see contrast just fine. Are you sure it's not your monitor/Nvidia panel settings? Nvidia's color profile is not set to full by default, it has to be changed, no matter the gpu as far as I know-in Windows.

I've highlighted the settings that should be changed. You should see a very noticeable difference in the color and contrast by doing this.

I wasn't having problems before, but this made it even better for me! Holy crap!

[Gage Wirefly]

17 minutes ago, Janet Voxel said:

I wasn't having problems before, but this made it even better for me! Holy crap!

Yeah the default setting will make your display look a bit faded or washed out. It really does help!

[Marianne Little]

9 hours ago, Gage Wirefly said:

I have a 150 dollar gpu(Gtx 1650 Super) and I see contrast just fine. Are you sure it's not your monitor/Nvidia panel settings? Nvidia's color profile is not set to full by default, it has to be changed, no matter the gpu as far as I know-in Windows.

I've highlighted the settings that should be changed. You should see a very noticeable difference in the color and contrast by doing this.

I have a nVidia GTX 970 and that is at the lower end of price and performance, yes?

My control panel is totally different from yours. But I found "Use Nvidia color settings" under "Adjust desktop color settings" and I found sliders. I increased the contrast slider to 55% instead of 50%. I will see how it works out.

[Gage Wirefly]

18 hours ago, Marianne Little said:

I have a nVidia GTX 970 and that is at the lower end of price and performance, yes?

My control panel is totally different from yours. But I found "Use Nvidia color settings" under "Adjust desktop color settings" and I found sliders. I increased the contrast slider to 55% instead of 50%. I will see how it works out.

Are you running the most up to date drivers? If so the panel should be the same I would think?

[Chic Aeon]

20 minutes ago, Gage Wirefly said:

Are you running the most up to date drivers? If so the panel should be the same I would think?

Mine wasn't the same as yours either. I have a GTX 980. I found it but it didn't look the same. Newest drivers :D.   Win10 is a very sneaky devil. I have Win10pro but not sure that matters.  

And @Marianne Little  what I learned from the Sansar folks when I was looking for a new card. When I figured out that mine wasn't really going bad but that it was a software issue, I put that off. 

 

Anyway new cards ending in 70 are less expensive. So the 3070 is the least expensive of the new series. Lots of other similar models with higher prices. You can always check how cards compair by looking up video card BENCHMARK tests. Some places are better than others.   

 

Your card costs half the price of my card. Unfortunately while the price when new was a good price it is definitely not a good price now as it has stayed the same for four years and is NOW a fairly low end card; well middle range but certainly not a great "gaming" card. Still my computer is working OK for me except the black screen crash issue (which could possibly be fixed with Gage's info  - time will tell).  

 

I am pretty sure that Windows changed things in Gage's setting "for me" as I typically choose NVIDIA. I had some major issue in the middle of last night which were once again NOT of my making but "help" from a Windows update. Fairly sorted out now but Microsoft doesn't always know what is best -- even though it thinks it does.  We have lost a lot of personal power with Win10. Most days I am OK with that -- and then there are the Microsoft made issues!

Edited December 16, 2020 by Chic Aeon
adding info

[Gage Wirefly]

28 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

Mine wasn't the same as yours either. I have a GTX 980. I found it but it didn't look the same. Newest drivers :D.   Win10 is a very sneaky devil. I have Win10pro but not sure that matters.  

And @Marianne Little  what I learned from the Sansar folks when I was looking for a new card. When I figured out that mine wasn't really going bad but that it was a software issue, I put that off. 

 

Anyway new cards ending in 70 are less expensive. So the 3070 is the least expensive of the new series. Lots of other similar models with higher prices. You can always check how cards compair by looking up video card BENCHMARK tests. Some places are better than others.   

 

Your card costs half the price of my card. Unfortunately the price when new was a good price but definitely not a good price now as it has stayed the same for four year and is NOW a fairly low end card.  Well middle range but certainly not a great "gaming" card. Still mine is working OK for me except the black screen crash issue (which could possibly be fixed with Gage's info  - time will tell).  

 

I am pretty sure that Windows changed things there "for me". I had some major issue in the middle of last night which were once again NOT of my making but "help" from a Windows update. Fairly sorted out now but Microsoft doesn't always know what is best -- even though it thinks it does.  We have lost a lot of personal power with Win10. Most days I am OK with that -- and then there are the Microsoft made issues!

Are you using the latest driver from Nvidia's site or the latest that Windows install automatically? If it's the latter, that is not the latest driver and could be why the panel is different, not sure. I also use Win10 Pro but it shouldn't matter there. 

[Chic Aeon]

1 hour ago, Gage Wirefly said:

Are you using the latest driver from Nvidia's site or the latest that Windows install automatically? If it's the latter, that is not the latest driver and could be why the panel is different, not sure. I also use Win10 Pro but it shouldn't matter there. 

Yes, newest. Not sure either. Maybe a Windows update some of us have an others not yet.  

[Chic Aeon]

Thinking about all the "why did they do this" part of the question (hopefully it WAS this thread) I just wanted to mention that in the very beginning of EEP they were going to charge us for uploading (like a texture).  When EEP got in the official mainstream viewer and I tried it again I was very happy to see that hadn't happened. 

 

So there is  a bit of the story that likely a lot of us forgot ^^ :D.     Maybe there was an outcry when it was in beta on the main grid. I wasn't paying all that much attention then accept for watching the complaints roll in on the feedback thread and noticing how horrible night time was even in FS. 

 

Edited December 16, 2020 by Chic Aeon
spelling