New updated enviroments

[Chic Aeon]

17 minutes ago, RowanMinx said:

Which in reality is a small percentage of SL users.  We all know that.  

I got a note card from store today mentioning how eep will effect their products and how to see them as intended.  Also,.they will have to be updating some for the same reason.  Yep, more work and less fps.  Sounds like a winner?  Not from the average SL users perspective.  It was unnecessary and franky, unwanted from the the majority of people I've talked to.

THAT was interesting. Back to the "can't see my stuff, change your LODs" ---

AND not all creators are going to take the time to "redo" (mostly about materials) their products. Most creators (from the top to the bottom tier) are feeling a crunch these days. You can see it in the sales and the gifts and the marketing. They don't need MORE to deal with. Many are going to the "buy a fatpack or forget it" model to save energy. I get that even though I don't want to pay for a whole fatpack of hair when I will only ever use ONE color ^^ --- but I get it.  

 

And yes, not the FS crew's fault at all.  They did the best they could with what they had to work with.  BUT this might be a good time to rethink that three version rule if things don't get better by that time.  I just made a new Windlight today for a photo shoot. Looked really good and saved it as a Windlight. Imported into the Linden viewer and it lost all the contrast. I LIKE CONTRAST and EEP has been and apparently will always be losing the contrast that is available in Winglight.  So, if I want contrast I have to post process it in and it doesn't look as good. 

 

For that reason I will be waiting also until the last minute -- this when I am hoping that the new version will fix my black screen graphics issue that came in with the last BOM version.  I would rather reboot my machine now and then than lose Windlight. I will also be working ahead now to complete the 52 weeks of Color posts. I won't POST them of course but they will all be done in a consistent manner that way.   

 

Appreciated reading your comments. They weren't much different than the ones being said over the last couple of years, but still good to know. 

 

Here is a page from awhile back that has the instructions as a graphic (CC0).   https://chicatphilsplace.blogspot.com/2020/04/eep-versus-windlight-another-new-normal.html

 

That's for the person that asked awhile ago.  

 

Yes, the whole point (I think) of EEP in the beginning was a new revenue stream, but I don't really see that happening except for a few very techie folks that make some elaborate scripted week-long with changing weather products. Me? I like the days to be DAYS and clear for the most part. I am not a customer at all.  

 

Edited December 10, 2020 by Chic Aeon
spelling

[MoiraKathleen]

I've been using EEP in the Kokua viewer since it was introduced, and for someone like me who didn't make their own windlights, but simply choose one of the available ones from the list, I haven't really noticed any end-of-the-world issues with EEP.  I simply tried out new Environments from the Environments folder in the Library and copied a handful of the ones I really liked to my Settings folder in my inventory.  I  usually try using a region's setting first, changing only if it makes it difficult to see what I want to see or if it's night and I'd rather it be day. 

Regarding the FPS decrease, if there was one it wasn't noticeable to me - I don't usually display the FPS, but get a feeling from how the environment reacts as to whether things are good or not, and I didn't notice things not being OK in the regions I frequented, after switching to an EEP viewer. 

While I'm an outlier on this thread, I would hazard a guess that there a fair amount of users that also just use what is available - if they even change the environment settings at all - and will probably not be majorly inconvenienced by FS switching to EEP in the latest version.

It seems to me that just about every major change that is introduced by LL is met by an outcry and doom and gloom in the forums, but it also seem like a majority of people come around after awhile, or at least find a way to deal with it, and after some time, some even end up liking the feature. 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

38 minutes ago, RowanMinx said:

Which in reality is a small percentage of SL users.  We all know that.

It's a small percentage who will need to create EEP environments, day settings, and so forth, yes. But this will impact, mostly positively, on how all of us experience SL, as sim owners begin to implement customized EEPs for their sims. It will impact positively on role players -- it's much much easier now to share environmental settings, so that everyone is seeing exactly the same thing (if they choose to do so) in their viewer. It will impact on new Experiences, on art installations, and even on stores.

 

41 minutes ago, RowanMinx said:

I got a note card from store today mentioning how eep will effect their products and how to see them as intended.

The actual rendering engine hasn't changed -- this merely impacts how we set and share lighting and other environmental effects. Any store that is worried that their products will look crap under certain EEP settings should have been equally worried about how they'd look under certain Windlights. And maybe they should should have taken that into account when designing them in the first place. As Chic notes above, this is akin to creators who produce goods that only look "good" if you ramp up your LOD settings.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

21 minutes ago, MoiraKathleen said:

It seems to me that just about every major change that is introduced by LL is met by an outcry and doom and gloom in the forums, but it also seem like a majority of people come around after awhile, or at least find a way to deal with it, and after some time, some even end up liking the feature.

Honestly, totally this.

The learning curve for most users is not steep -- nothing like what has been required to implement BoM for instance.

I've lost a few favourite Windlights myself in the change-over, but most of those I'd already converted and loaded into Black Dragon as EEP, so they're not really "lost" to me at all.

To be clear, I'm not an advocate for EEP, as such. I don't actually care that much, and have not found generally that it's made a big difference in my photography (except making it easier to change the direction of sunlight and moonlight when using ambient occlusion).

I just don't think this is going to be anything like the big deal that people seem to think it is here.

[Chic Aeon]

It will definitely impact some more than others. After all a lot of folks on mainland use the default mainland day (OMG!!!!) ; agreed.

   

So far as product updates I won't be updating mine. After all I am basically retired and still oddly sell things very well that I made almost a decade ago.  Also, I rarely used materials  BECAUSE they could and would look so horrible under some Windlight settings. Instead I used cycles (carefully) which basically looks the same with no odd bump and shine as the lighting changes. Of course that was a choice designers made when materials were introduced (what? eight or nine years ago?) and many were wholeheartedly in the MATERIALS OR DIE camp (yes, in caps; many arguments here, Opensim, Sansar LOL). 

 

So everyone will no doubt "deal" and I may not be doing much photography -- or it will just look pretty boring with "good composition".  

 

There are some outstanding photographers in SL and I haven't talked to any of them that are thrilled about EEP (ever) but no doubt there are some. If LL  could get the contrast ramp put back in I would likely be just fine with EEP. It  doesn't appear that will happen though because so few people care or even understand how to use it.    So, we will deal with it when we are forced to.

 

The FPS issue which has been complained about over and over and still is -- ISsomething that affects everyone, so honestly that should be fixed. It automatically limits which people can actually use a viewer (any viewer) and enter Second Life.  Hopefully LL can see that is a very bad thing and will work on improving the experience. 

Edited December 11, 2020 by Chic Aeon
spelling

[steeljane42]

55 minutes ago, MoiraKathleen said:

Regarding the FPS decrease, if there was one it wasn't noticeable to me - I don't usually display the FPS, but get a feeling from how the environment reacts as to whether things are good or not, and I didn't notice things not being OK in the regions I frequented, after switching to an EEP viewer. 

Well, some people still swear by how no one ever needs more than 24/30 fps, so there's that. And I personally know a few people who can't tell a difference between 720p and 4k resolution videos/games. So a feeling is not very relevant measure. I mean, good for you that you feel it's still okay, but the jira I linked in previous message as well as my own experience from today shows 30-40% fps drop because of the water, on a very decent hardware, so I can only imagine how bad it is on weak machines.

From the 2 months old jira comment

Quote

the Black Dragon viewer has reverted the EEP water code to pre-EEP because of this bug. We have provided data for Firestorm and now SecondLife. So we can be pretty certain that this is not a single viewer issue.

I do, however, wonder why FS team knowing all that and @Beq Janusfrom FS team is the one who made that comment there, didn't do the same for this FS release. With current pattern of FS releases, next one will be around may/june, so it's the earliest when most FS users will receive a fix for that bug. And that's assuming LL will fix it before that, if not, then it'll be a whole year of 30-40% less fps because of the water that is not even visible in so many cases.

I've already rolled back anyway, and can't say I was dying to use EEP to begin with after seeing how LL implemented it (I did like their original ideas, though), but it's going to affect a lot of users. Although wouldn't be first time it happened. I did use FS 5.0.1 for ages, because every version after it has around 15-20fps in same scenes, probably because of some earlier LMR code from LL. Only upgraded when BoM became rather common, and it didn't look great to say the least on pre-bom viewers.

[Rowan Amore]

49 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

It's a small percentage who will need to create EEP environments, day settings, and so forth, yes. But this will impact, mostly positively, on how all of us experience SL, as sim owners begin to implement customized EEPs for their sims. It will impact positively on role players -- it's much much easier now to share environmental settings, so that everyone is seeing exactly the same thing (if they choose to do so) in their viewer. It will impact on new Experiences, on art installations, and even on stores.

It was easy enough when you went to a specific region and they said, "best if seen in such and such windlight".  Bryn Oh always did that with her installations.  Flip the switch to Use Region WL and done.  Not sure EEP being any easier to use is a good enough reason as I don't see exactly HOW.  Pass me the eep or I manually switch to region WL.  Oh, wait.  Someone did mention revenue generator...makes much more sense.

[Tari Landar]

1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

But this will impact, mostly positively, on how all of us experience SL, as sim owners begin to implement customized EEPs for their sims. It will impact positively on role players -- it's much much easier now to share environmental settings, so that everyone is seeing exactly the same thing (if they choose to do so) in their viewer. It will impact on new Experiences, on art installations, and even on stores.

Just using your post as a jumping off point, seemed the most appropriate to use., for me.

I don't want to see sl the way everyone else does, or the way an experience, sim or product maker does, or, rather, I should specify...I CAN'T. I am in the minority on this, I do realize that. But if the implementation of EEP messes with the way I see sl now, using the WL setting(s) I use now, I can't enjoy sl, and that pisses me off. (this is why I do not like updates that are requirements but don't offer a fix to something broken, and instead merely add some kind of cosmetic change, which is what EEP is, after all...I digress on that part for a bit though). (and ftr, EEP does, I already tried it, headache inducing is the kindest phrase I can use there, making me want to throat punch someone goes hand in hand with it)

I can only use certain settings in sl in order to be able to see things at all, which I already see minimally to begin with. Aside from the fact that I don't have the best graphics in the world (my fault, purely, but it is what it is, and I accept that, always have, I don't expect viewers, others, etc... to dumb down to my graphics level, lol..just wanted to clarify that part).  I NEED to be able to use the settings I use now, without EEP phucking them up royally, I just do. There is no compromising on this for me, there can't be. It's not easy as it is, and sometimes it sucks that I have to "break the immersion" as it were, and use my own WL settings versus whatever a sim owner/creator wants me to use to "see their stuff optimally", but I've accepted this as a reality, for me, for many years. Now add in that fps can and sometimes does drop dramatically, which are already nowhere near what others get, again, my own fault, I know, on TOP of not being able to use my settings the way I need to, just to be able to see...

My inner devil spawn gnome will come out, because that's a load of horse ***** if ever there was one. There is literally no functional reason for this to cause a drop in fps, for ANYONE, if it was implemented correctly by LL(which it was not, and that was made clear all throughout its testing phases).

I love that people love creating their environments, their EEP creations, their experiences and things that in their own vision are beautiful, magnificent, amazing, even if I can't see them that way. What I don't love, is an update that would force (thus far, this one does not, it's not a required update, just to clarify) me to use those things which would completely and utterly break MY sl, MY vision, MY enjoyment of sl. So, really, no, it won't positively affect all of us even remotely. I think there are probably more people that don't give two *****s than there are people who actually like these new EEP changes, and probably more people that don't like them, than those that do like them. The small minority of us for whom they simply do not work right at all may be small, but we probably still outnumber the people that like them too. 

I'm not updating until I have to, and if that day comes, and the issues EEP presents are not fixed and I don't find a solution that lets me keep seeing sl the way I do, then I'm really not going to be a happy camper. 

I also don't want a bunch more crap filling up my inventory just so I can not see things the way people think I should be able to see them with their self (or not self) created EEPs. That's just utterly stupid, imo, making them an asset at all was, is and will always remain, an idiotic implementation, which will also end up being even more problematic, eventually.

[Annie Nova]

I'm not a fan of EEP myself, but I was able to find the windlight that I always use, so other then that, I don't see myself using EEP at all. The problem that I have been experiencing since the new version and I didn't have in the previous one, was one of my games, will not let me "sit" for more then a couple of rolls of the dice. I have tried it in the LL viewer and there was no unsitting me and I was able to play a complete game. So now I have to file a jira on it and what are the odds that it will or can be fixed? So until then, I cannot play that one game which upsets me. I paid good lindens for it and now it's useless. I H A T E change! lol

[Rowan Amore]

11 minutes ago, Annie Nova said:

I'm not a fan of EEP myself, but I was able to find the windlight that I always use, so other then that, I don't see myself using EEP at all. The problem that I have been experiencing since the new version and I didn't have in the previous one, was one of my games, will not let me "sit" for more then a couple of rolls of the dice. I have tried it in the LL viewer and there was no unsitting me and I was able to play a complete game. So now I have to file a jira on it and what are the odds that it will or can be fixed? So until then, I cannot play that one game which upsets me. I paid good lindens for it and now it's useless. I H A T E change! lol

I don't mind change.  The recent move to the cloud and BOM were 2 examples.  Each implemented to make our SL experience better and so far, they have.  What makes no sense whatsoever is implementing a change that they KNEW would decrease performance.  Someone explain to me how that type of change is good for anyone.  As far as I'm concerned, I won't be using eep until they drag me kicking and screaming.  

[AdminGirl]

I'd vote for improved performance over shiny new feature any day. But shiny new feature that decreases performance... well..

[NiranV Dean]

1 hour ago, steeljane42 said:

From the 2 months old jira comment

I think you or Beq might have misunderstood that. I didn't roll back to pre-EEP water reflections because of the performance decrease. I rolled back because at the time the water was so horribly broken (reflections didn't update when rolling the camera) and water reflections and refractions cutting off when looking at the water closely. The rolling issue was the biggest reason though and ultimately made me swap back to the old code. Now that this issue is fixed and the old code started making objects flicker on the other side of the water plane, i swapped back to EEP code, fixed attached lights in it and fixed the cutoff as well making it visually equivalent of the pre-EEP code.

[Chic Aeon]

24 minutes ago, RowanMinx said:

I don't mind change.  The recent move to the cloud and BOM were 2 examples.  Each implemented to make our SL experience better and so far, they have.  What makes no sense whatsoever is implementing a change that they KNEW would decrease performance.  Someone explain to me how that type of change is good for anyone.  As far as I'm concerned, I won't be using eep until they drag me kicking and screaming.  

Aside from the steep learning curve at the beginning I am a huge fan of BOM mostly because you can SEE the skin and tattoos and makeup and underwear and leggings you are wearing rather than guessing or listing them in a notecard for reference. So that was a great NEW FEATURE.   EEP has NEVER had a huge fan base -- well perhaps when we were being told what it could do). Once it was live in "beta" on Aditi  and folks could try it (albeit in an earlier form) the complaints way outweighed any kudos. A look at the goes on forever EEP feedback thread will give folks an idea if they care to peruse.

 

But once again --- like the removal of last names -- rather than paying attention to the overwhelming input from citizens, LL just went ahead because they "knew best". Well sometimes the new ideas work and sometimes they don't and it really is important to understand when to cut losses and backtrack. That has never been a LL trait however, so not too surprising now. And here we are. 

 

I really feel sorry for the FS crew as they are in the middle of all this through no fault of their own.  If we are lucky it will be another couple of years before we are required to toss away Windlight for good. And I think there is at least one third party viewer who isn't implementing Windlight, SO if that viewer still works  with Windlight then it may be an option for photography.  I can certainly make an EEP sky I can live with on a daily basis. I don't think I will ever be happy with photography under EEP though (maybe Black Dragon but I hate learning a whole new bit of software). 

 

Time will tell. 

 

Meanwhile let's enjoy our pretty bright New Mexico winter sunshine skies while we can :D. 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 hour ago, Tari Landar said:

But if the implementation of EEP messes with the way I see sl now, using the WL setting(s) I use now, I can't enjoy sl, and that pisses me off.

This is a totally fair point, although the operative term might be "if". It's certainly true that converting some existing WLs to EEP can break them -- Orac's Fog, for instance, is just . . . a dark screen in EEP. But most WLs do, in my experience, translate quite well and faithfully to EEP.

An interesting question: why does LL (or FS, for that matter) not create a WL / EEP setting (or settings) specifically for the visually impaired? It seems to me that accessibility is now a much higher profile issue than in the past. I should think this would be a really worthwhile thing to do.

(Similarly, some more dedicated provisions for the hearing impaired might be a very good thing.)

[Scylla Rhiadra]

49 minutes ago, AdminGirl said:

I'd vote for improved performance over shiny new feature any day. But shiny new feature that decreases performance... well..

Do we know that EEP affects frame rate and performance?

I'm not doubting it -- I'd be unsurprised if it did. But I haven't noticed it myself. I recognize that not every system responds the same way to different changes in the viewer or the environment, but I've so far heard just anecdotal evidence that it does (or doesn't) impact on things like FPS.

Is this quantifiable? Or demonstrable?

It seems to me that every "advance" in graphics quality that SL has ever made -- the introduction of mesh (especially), of materials, of ambient occlusion, of Windlight itself -- has had a deleterious effect upon "performance" of some sort or another. The issue is whether it is a worthwhile trade-off or not. Most (but not all) of us would likely agree that the advances I've listed above (and others) have been worthwhile, despite the negative impact on FPS.

The question then is: will EEP be implemented widely and creatively enough that, a year or two down the road, we will look back and say, "yes, that was worth it"?

I don't know the answer to that one.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

3 hours ago, Chic Aeon said:

I LIKE CONTRAST and EEP has been and apparently will always be losing the contrast that is available in Winglight.

Chic, which control in WL are you using to change contrast? Or do you mean simply that EEP flattens the contrast generally?

[NiranV Dean]

5 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

It seems to me that every "advance" in graphics quality that SL has ever made -- the introduction of mesh (especially), of materials, of ambient occlusion, of Windlight itself -- has had a deleterious effect upon "performance" of some sort or another. The issue is whether it is a worthwhile trade-off or not. Most (but not all) of us would likely agree that the advances I've listed above (and others) have been worthwhile, despite the negative impact on FPS.

Ambient Occlusion wasn't introduced. It was part of Deferred Rendering (Advanced Lighting) along with shadows, infinite lights, projector lights (and shadows for them) and better lighting. Deferred Rendering came back in 2009 already. Mesh included Depth of Field btw.

Edited December 11, 2020 by NiranV Dean

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Just now, NiranV Dean said:

Ambient Occlusion wasn't introduced. It was part of Deferred Rendering (Advanced Lighting) along with shadows, infinite lights, projector lights (and shadows for them) and better lighting. Mesh included Depth of Field btw.

Thanks for the correction. I wasn't at that time paying a great deal of attention to the technical aspects of the change .I just remember one day, suddenly . . . OMG SHADOWS!

[NiranV Dean]

Just now, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Thanks for the correction. I wasn't at that time paying a great deal of attention to the technical aspects of the change .I just remember one day, suddenly . . . OMG SHADOWS!

Yea... we had shadows back in 2009 already... i think it even takes back to 2008 but the earliest of my proofs i can find is 2009. Development must have started along or right after Windlight which was around 2007/08 if i remember correct, Windlight brought Post Processing Glow, shaders and also Voice.

[Jackson Redstar]

EEP here to stay so we'll have to get used to it, eventually. Question I still have is what reason there was that WL needed to go. Yeah I understand server side blah blah,  but nothing was really wrong with WL so I wonder why why Linden decided it needed to be replaced

[Seicher Rae]

4 minutes ago, Jackson Redstar said:

EEP here to stay so we'll have to get used to it, eventually. Question I still have is what reason there was that WL needed to go. Yeah I understand server side blah blah,  but nothing was really wrong with WL so I wonder why why Linden decided it needed to be replaced

Sadly, this is the reality: EEP is here to stay so we'll have to get used to it.

:::shakes tiny pixel fist at LL for breaking something that wasn't fixed:::

[Rowan Amore]

[Tari Landar]

1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

This is a totally fair point, although the operative term might be "if". It's certainly true that converting some existing WLs to EEP can break them -- Orac's Fog, for instance, is just . . . a dark screen in EEP. But most WLs do, in my experience, translate quite well and faithfully to EEP.

An interesting question: why does LL (or FS, for that matter) not create a WL / EEP setting (or settings) specifically for the visually impaired? It seems to me that accessibility is now a much higher profile issue than in the past. I should think this would be a really worthwhile thing to do.

(Similarly, some more dedicated provisions for the hearing impaired might be a very good thing.)

I should state, it's not an IF for me, it's a "EEP messes up my settings, so now I have to make new ones that work with EEP, if I want to use EEP and also figure out how not to lose the small-ish amount of FPS I already have" (though I do not HAVE to use EEP at this moment, thankfully, I only know it does, because I have tried it, numerous times, and it always fudges things up royally). As I said, I know I'm in the minority on that, doesn't piss me off any less though, lol. It's also rather annoying that I have to transfer or convert squat, but that's more of an annoyance with how very little work LL is willing to actually do on this, than an actual problem, I suppose (and probably fueled by grumpiness, lol)

As for the accessibility thing, the best answer I can come up with.... they aren't legally obligated to do so...so they don't. I mean, I don't necessarily expect them to, though I do think it would be nice if they made some sort of effort, I do also know it's not likely they ever would, or will, because the audience for it is probably quite small and we're not worth the effort. It's been suggested for many, many years, as long as I've been in sl anyway. LL absolutely SUCKS at listening, to pretty much anything

 

57 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Do we know that EEP affects frame rate and performance?

I'm not doubting it -- I'd be unsurprised if it did. But I haven't noticed it myself. I recognize that not every system responds the same way to different changes in the viewer or the environment, but I've so far heard just anecdotal evidence that it does (or doesn't) impact on things like FPS.

Is this quantifiable? Or demonstrable?

Anecdotal evidence, in this case, is actually really, really important, because it comes from the very people that have to use this product (I can't, unless I can adapt it to work how I need it to, so I don't count, lol) and it's not like there have only been a few people complaining about it. This is an issue that's been raised since EEPs first inception, all throughout testing, and even still today, and it's a problem that has persisted. At some point, long before the JIRA was made, even long before the other thread about it was made, it stopped being just anecdotal evidence though. It's the number one complaint, always has been, and it HAS been demonstrated (as far as I know, numerous times), but that takes us back to...LL doesn't listen.

I've only seen a few people say they haven't had a performance issue. I've talked to some who have said they didn't really notice if there was one or not, so it's a bit hard to take those experiences into account (obviously), though I do to some degree anyway. But at this point, enough people have said there IS a performance hit for LL to have already listened, if they intended to ever listen to the residents on this matter. What's really demonstrable here is that LL doesn't give two *****s if there is a performance hit to residents, or not, it's something shiny and new that they spent years upselling, pretending to work on, and now they have to get it out to the masses, without taking any of the feedback given during the testing phases into account. 

There are some changes to sl that have had impacts on performance, of course, and we should all expect that, absolutely. Many of them I would too consider to be very worthwhile, even if I, personally, cannot enjoy them. I know many, probably most, people do enjoy them and that alone makes them worthwhile, even if we don't like it. I don't believe the negative impacts that EEP has, or will have, at this stage, would put it anywhere near worthwhile for the grid as a whole. I think there are far too many for whom it is or will be problematic, and that will negatively impact the entire grid.

But, take my opinions with a grain of salt, they come from a very disgruntled person. Take the experiences of others who have demonstrated a negative impact, instead. My experience is likely even further down in the minority than most already there and it means very little, in the grand scheme. 

[Solar Legion]

The setting referenced here fixed the FPS drop (for the most part) for me.

[Chic Aeon]

3 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Chic, which control in WL are you using to change contrast? Or do you mean simply that EEP flattens the contrast generally?

Both :D.  

The difference between sun and ambient lighting.  

 

I have asked about this over and over again in the EEP thread and any advice given (very little) didn't work at all. If you know how to increase the contrast in EEP I would LOVE to know.  I see more comments that I haven't read so maybe I will have an answer. :D.

ALSO if you have a dark night sky in a Windlight setting and import to EEP the sky turns completely white. No longer "night" at all. I have posted on the EEP thread and don't want to do that all over again.  There are some already low contrast Windlight skies that transfer over fine, but many of "mine" do not -- that is they transfer but they look very different than the skies that were imported. I understand that you can tweak some skies to make them close. SOME however seem to be lost causes.  I HAVE worked with this some and really did try and solve the issues.