New updated enviroments

[SpiritSparrow Skydancer]

On 12/10/2020 at 11:30 AM, RowanMinx said:

Are you talking about the newest firestorm viewer?  LL has had their EEP version out for awhile.  I haven't downloaded the new firestorm yet and I'm not looking forward to it.

I have been using it for a few days... Not had anything go wrong. *knocks on wood*

[SpiritSparrow Skydancer]

On 12/10/2020 at 10:27 AM, namssab1nad Piers said:

Well, Linden Lab has managed to screw things up again.  They seem to be really good at it.  From a photographer standpoint what they have done is make it harder to really get great landscape shots by removing alot of the preset windlights.  What they have replaced it with is a very poor substitute.  So Linden Lab, tell me why I should stay premium since you insist on screwing things up all the time. You have proven this over and over.  Thanks for nothing.

You know, I really get tired of people trash talking LL.   Why don't you start your own virtual world and make everything perfect.

[Solar Legion]

I only just realized exactly when this thread was created ....

Dear OP:

As others have noted, Linden Lab had nothing whatsoever to do with the Windlight presets you are grousing about losing. Funnily enough you really didn't "lose" them either, unless a "clean" install removes the entries for them in the Quick Preferences Sky drop down that is - which you'd have only yourself to blame then for not making proper backups.

Oh wait, most (if not all) are listed in the Library as well! Oh and let us not forget that someone took the time to convert them and place the conversions up on the MP for free.

The thread thus far also has - buried in it - pointers and such for fixing some of the issues.

EEP has been out and present in most TPVs for a while now with FS being pretty much the last one to implement.

Edited December 13, 2020 by Solar Legion

[NiranV Dean]

11 hours ago, FairreLilette said:

Yeah, I just went into the Second Life and it's archaic.  I hadn't seen the SL viewer for many years, but it's back in 2010 or so it seemed to me.  Not to mention there are hardly any tools I could see under GRAPHICS; it had an 'advanced' but still not much there and no textures over 512???????????  It's the Firestorm team that really made SL beautiful and amazing.  I will never forgot the first time I rezzed on a Firestorm viewer and the colors were so vibrant...it was EEP to SL way back then.  Firestorm made SL a beautiful world.  I wonder if LL knows that?  Thank you FS team volunteers!  

Please what. I think you are mixing up Black Dragon with Firestorm here... Firestorm looks EXACTLY like the official viewer and unlike BD doesn't use Tone Mapping and Color Correction by default. The colors are exactly the same in both Viewers if you use the base comparison (pre EEP vs FS pre-EEP and post-EEP vs FS post-EEP).

[Beev Fallen]

15 hours ago, arton Rotaru said:

That has been worked on but it's still nowhere near as it should be like in Pre-EEP. Specular reflections are still too weak at sunset/sunrise.

I am 99% sure that the problem with the weak speculars on Sunset/Sunrise is due to differences in sun power calculation on that sun angle (can i put it like that? not a graphics engineer) in EEP, so, if Linden Labs were tweaking speculars using Sunset preset, they actually might get it worse. Try yourself - move the sun position a little bit up in Sunset EEP - you can see how powerful speculars get if sun rises a bit up above the horizon.

If i was the one who's in charge of fixing this, I would slightly change both Sunset/Sunrise EEP presets (5 'clicks' up above the horizon) to keep the old behaviour, and tweak the global specular intensity to reasonable level relying on Midday presets.

 

16 hours ago, arton Rotaru said:

Unfortunately we also have way too much shine at midday sun angles in EEP as well. This one:

I am 99% sure that it is the consequence of tweaking the speculars intensity while relying on Sunset preset.

 

16 hours ago, arton Rotaru said:

Then there are point lights which do pretty much behave as they did in Pre-EEP.

Can't agree to that, local light sources show twice more intense specular brightness compared to pre-EEP.

[steeljane42]

3 hours ago, Tarina Sewell said:

 Why don't you start your own virtual world and make everything perfect.

That argument is as weak as ever. Creators, content producers, games and virtual worlds developers are no saints that can do nothing wrong. And they should be criticized for their mistakes. LL made plenty over the years, some worse than others; releasing EEP in such sad state as it was a few months ago when it just hit LL viewer, with so many bugs (and that's after such a long development) is certainly one of them.

Obviously productive criticism is the way to do it, while ranting is not. And it's worth to give them credit where it's due. For instance all those final stages of moving to AWS lately were done way better than I've expected and if not count some minor issues here and there it didn't affect how I use SL.

[Miller Thor]

On 12/10/2020 at 11:10 PM, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Most of the EEP assets I've seen on MP are free, but, yes, I suppose in theory.

The big differences are, as I said, for people creating immersive environments. Because EEP is server-side, the effects are no longer dependent on YOU having a particular Windlight in your viewer. And those creating environments also have more control over how they look, including day cycles, what appears in the sky, and so on.

I fully agree with you. EEP offers far more possibilities than was ever possible with the outdated lantern system. Only the possibility of developing and displaying more realistic 24 hour daily cycles is optimal. We use this function with us and have created 8 presets per month over the year with real sunrise and sunset times. The local real weather can now also be displayed much more efficiently than before, as everything is now much more dynamic. I said in the EEP forum a year ago that the use of EEP will be associated with a great learning process, but also with a changeover, and was only laughed at at the time. But it is so. Even my wife and I are still learning if we want to optimize our 96 presets even further. One of my ideas would be to set up courses for EEP just like there are courses for building, etc., in which experienced users, but also Linden employees who are trained in EEP, pass on their knowledge. Maybe the public relations department at Linden Labs could take care of it and take action. In spite of everything, however, there will only ever be a compromise, because every user has a different screen and different settings and so you will never be able to please everyone. No matter what you do.

Edited December 13, 2020 by Miller Thor

[arton Rotaru]

7 hours ago, Beev Fallen said:

I am 99% sure that the problem with the weak speculars on Sunset/Sunrise is due to differences in sun power calculation on that sun angle (can i put it like that? not a graphics engineer) in EEP, so, if Linden Labs were tweaking speculars using Sunset preset, they actually might get it worse. Try yourself - move the sun position a little bit up in Sunset EEP - you can see how powerful speculars get if sun rises a bit up above the horizon.

If i was the one who's in charge of fixing this, I would slightly change both Sunset/Sunrise EEP presets (5 'clicks' up above the horizon) to keep the old behaviour, and tweak the global specular intensity to reasonable level relying on Midday presets.

 

I am 99% sure that it is the consequence of tweaking the speculars intensity while relying on Sunset preset.

 

Can't agree to that, local light sources show twice more intense specular brightness compared to pre-EEP.

That certainly might be the case.

[rasterscan]

EEP's a bit of a learning curve, like BOM was / is. I gave up first go but mah lady talked me into another go. Got on much better. Some great presets on MP for a lindy - search juicybomb for them on MP. Then right click in inv and Apply to me only.

Or find a library eep in the latest viewer. You can double click 'em, it goes into a editor mode that can save as a new eep. Here's my second go at EEP :

 

EEP movie clip

[Cinos Field]

What exactly is this FPS-draining water-rendering checkbox that I hear people mention? Which setting?

[Whirly Fizzle]

Just now, Cinos Field said:

What exactly is this FPS-draining water-rendering checkbox that I hear people mention? Which setting?

[Solar Legion]

I could have sworn I mentioned it by name in at least one post ....

[Cinos Field]

6 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

I could have sworn I mentioned it by name in at least one post ....

I do apologize for my eagerness to ask rather than read, but my eyes start glazing over after a few pages of... topics approached in the way that they are, in this thread.

[Solar Legion]

1 minute ago, Cinos Field said:

I do apologize for my eagerness to ask rather than read, but my eyes start glazing over after a few pages of... topics approached in the way that they are, in this thread.

No worries.Still waking up and a bit more snarky than I ought to be!

[FairreLilette]

8 hours ago, NiranV Dean said:

Please what. I think you are mixing up Black Dragon with Firestorm here... Firestorm looks EXACTLY like the official viewer and unlike BD doesn't use Tone Mapping and Color Correction by default. The colors are exactly the same in both Viewers if you use the base comparison (pre EEP vs FS pre-EEP and post-EEP vs FS post-EEP).

Not on my screen...not at all.  I remember the first time using the FS viewer probably about 9 years ago.  It was like Dorothy landing in Oz.  The colors, I will never forgot...it was warmer, it was richer...it was intensely beautiful...it was gorgeous. I was not a builder nine years ago and built nothing 9 years ago, so was purely in SL 9 years ago for aesthetic reasons and socializing. 

However, I had a horrible time yesterday going into LL viewer.  Does it render any high polygon items?   I have high polygon items in my home and LL viewer won't render them.

Also, way back when, most people I talked to said they used FS viewer for building.  I was not a builder then but am now and FS is better for building.  But, way back then, I stayed for the coloration of everything not for building.  

But, this is neither here nor there as two people cannot have the same computer experience; we all have our personal computers which give us a personal experience.   I also had one of the first flat screen computer monitors at that time.  I still have it today.  

EDIT:  Just wanted to add that my firewall will not let Black Dragon in and I don't want to over-ride my firewall for a program I know nothing about. 

Edited December 13, 2020 by FairreLilette

[Sassy Kenin]

1 hour ago, Solar Legion said:

 snarky

That must be the new forum word of the week.😁

[Mercedes Avon]

I am surprised. I am in the minority here because I  like EEP. I like being able to grab the sun or moon and swing it around and place it wherever I want. Now it doesn't matter if you have that super amazing sunset facing LL home because anyone can easily have a sunset view from any direction now (you could technically do that in the old viewer too but I think it's easier in EEP). And some of those EEP settings on the Marketplace are fun to play with. Someone made a night sky milkyway and another person made what looks like an erupting volcano.

My favorite windlights are Jay's Battlescars off the MP (made for the original viewer) and I imported them into EEP in moments. They look fab - just simply lovely!

I am not experiencing any FPS drops. The windlight does look a big different, but for me it looks better. I do not know how much a graphic card plays a role in what people see. My desktop is quite "juicy" (I am a gaming nerd).  I understand the average person probably doesn't have an expensive set up to play SL (and should not have to).

I will have to try things out on my laptop and see if things are much worse there.

Here is what I see on shared environment on FS EEP.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 hour ago, Mercedes Avon said:

Here is what I see on shared environment on FS EEP.

And these are beautiful pics.

[SpiritSparrow Skydancer]

17 hours ago, steeljane42 said:

That argument is as weak as ever. Creators, content producers, games and virtual worlds developers are no saints that can do nothing wrong. And they should be criticized for their mistakes. LL made plenty over the years, some worse than others; releasing EEP in such sad state as it was a few months ago when it just hit LL viewer, with so many bugs (and that's after such a long development) is certainly one of them.

Obviously productive criticism is the way to do it, while ranting is not. And it's worth to give them credit where it's due. For instance all those final stages of moving to AWS lately were done way better than I've expected and if not count some minor issues here and there it didn't affect how I use SL.

There is NO argument to my statement.  Do you feel better though?

[SpiritSparrow Skydancer]

2 hours ago, Mercedes Avon said:

I am surprised. I am in the minority here because I  like EEP. I like being able to grab the sun or moon and swing it around and place it wherever I want. Now it doesn't matter if you have that super amazing sunset facing LL home because anyone can easily have a sunset view from any direction now (you could technically do that in the old viewer too but I think it's easier in EEP). And some of those EEP settings on the Marketplace are fun to play with. Someone made a night sky milkyway and another person made what looks like an erupting volcano.

My favorite windlights are Jay's Battlescars off the MP (made for the original viewer) and I imported them into EEP in moments. They look fab - just simply lovely!

I am not experiencing any FPS drops. The windlight does look a big different, but for me it looks better. I do not know how much a graphic card plays a role in what people see. My desktop is quite "juicy" (I am a gaming nerd).  I understand the average person probably doesn't have an expensive set up to play SL (and should not have to).

I will have to try things out on my laptop and see if things are much worse there.

Here is what I see on shared environment on FS EEP.

I am loving the EEP and I have had no issue with it.

[Robin Kiyori]

I am neutral to EEP,but I have to giggle at the irony because once I installed the full realease of fs' eep viewerr my frame rate went up.

I have no idea how but I am not complaining.

[Chic Aeon]

I was thinking about this today and wondering if the drop in FPS is for folks that don't have dedicated video cards?  Mine is exactly the same with a four year old not so top of the line card. The photo above a bit look much better contrast wise that "I" can manage to get but those are apparently on a high end card.  @Mercedes Avon can you paste in your specs?   

 

If in fact we "could" get similar looks to windlight if we had a 3070 or something akin I would at least FEEL a little better about EEP.  Not that it would be "fair" mind you but that hopefully in time many folks could catch up and have better experiences :D. 

 

The photos above are  still not as much contrast as I often use, but they are certainly better than most of what I see LOL. 

 

[Mercedes Avon]

11 hours ago, Chic Aeon said:

I was thinking about this today and wondering if the drop in FPS is for folks that don't have dedicated video cards?  Mine is exactly the same with a four year old not so top of the line card. The photo above a bit look much better contrast wise that "I" can manage to get but those are apparently on a high end card.  @Mercedes Avon can you paste in your specs?   

 

If in fact we "could" get similar looks to windlight if we had a 3070 or something akin I would at least FEEL a little better about EEP.  Not that it would be "fair" mind you but that hopefully in time many folks could catch up and have better experiences :D. 

 

The photos above are  still not as much contrast as I often use, but they are certainly better than most of what I see LOL. 

I am sure not having a dedicated card is some of the issue. I have to try it on my laptop for curiosity sake. 

My graphic card is a Nvidia Geforce RTX 2080 Super. I do realize the average user isn't likely to have this card.

 

Edited December 14, 2020 by Mercedes Avon
Added an extra thought.

[SpiritSparrow Skydancer]

On 12/13/2020 at 9:25 AM, Solar Legion said:

I could have sworn I mentioned it by name in at least one post ....

But we are a visual lot and we need images.

[Penny Patton]

Although it has a few serious issues LL needs to address, the more I play with the EEP editor, the less anxious I get about it.

Here's a quick "anime style" night sky I threw together. I cheated a bit, the moon is actually the sun, and the moon texture I replaced with a hastily painted "milky way" patch of stars that I whipped up in Photoshop. (This does not mean LL is off the hook about the lackluster EEP stars.)

 Some additional thoughts;

• I'm not keen on the sun light colour affecting the brightness and colour of the moon, I'd rather those be independent of each other. Besides, we already have a moon brightness slider. As it is now, to make my stars texture look white I need the sunlight to be super bright. It doesn't show so much in this screenshot but it's very apparent when you're walking around in the scene.
• Why can't we completely get rid of the sun glow? Even at 0 it's still very apparent, when you go negative it creates a light on the horizon you can't get rid of.
• It seems to me that local ambient light sources are a lot brighter than they used to be. I've had to adjust the lighting in several scenes to get them to look right.

 

Edited December 14, 2020 by Penny Patton