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I know that techs like to chase things like avatar feet shadows and Windlight bugs but it's helpful to remember the bog-standard experience for the average person and what annoys them:

1. System puts a t-shirt on you, unasked, and you can't delete it, you first have to take it off, then delete it.

2. When you log on, your money shows ???, and if you forget to click on it once, when you attempt to buy something, it tells you that you have "no" money.

3. Group chat lags or doesn't show at all.

4. Edit window opens directly over the object you are editing, so you can't see it. When you push it to the side, it doesn't stay put even in one long-on session.

5. Some sims are triggering anti-virus programs and showing malware not on users' land, not on their URLs, and not in deeded objects. This leaves: Linden sims.

6. TPs often don't work from the World Map

7. Objects with images on them continue to show as gray squares long after you have been on the sim.

8. Names in full cannot be search on groups; you have to type one or two letters and scroll through.

9. In large inventories, the cursor slips and sometimes will not stay put even after you click on it.

10. When Advanced Lighting is checked off, along with show parcel boundaries, the boundary lines from the sim you are on and nearby sims bleed through all objects, creating visual annoyances.

 

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Of course it's a game!  It's a program run on a computer for the purposes of entertainment, the very definition of a computer game!  You don't..... think it's real do you?  You do know those avatars a

In the sense that most gamers think of games, it's not A game.  Of course we don't think it's real, don't be silly but..as quoted: Linden Lab, the company that created the platform that is Second

Add to the list of annoyances: endless "is it a game" debates

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2 hours ago, bigmoe Whitfield said:

#5 is something else on your end,  LL's systems are not compromised and if there is no bad url set or other issues on the land,  that tells us,  it's the users end.  

I filed a ticket on this and have gone many, many rounds with Lindens on this, and they have taken multiple logs on multiple log-ins, and at first they claimed this was about not setting audio to "none". But that doesn't work. There are no URLs on sound or media and no deeded items. It only happens on certain sims. You don't know that LL's systems are not compromised; they could be, like any other computer. Or it could be an error of some kind. It's completely unscientific never to consider LL's servers in a situation like this.

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27 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

I filed a ticket on this and have gone many, many rounds with Lindens on this, and they have taken multiple logs on multiple log-ins, and at first they claimed this was about not setting audio to "none". But that doesn't work. There are no URLs on sound or media and no deeded items. It only happens on certain sims. You don't know that LL's systems are not compromised; they could be, like any other computer. Or it could be an error of some kind. It's completely unscientific never to consider LL's servers in a situation like this.

I'm going to say this,  gonna need proof that they are compromised before believing it,  to many years here without ever any issues,  so the track record is proven on their end, what you are saying is "they are compromised" which is almost impossible to believe.    So prok, gonna need that proof, without it,  it's suspect.   just sayin.

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26 minutes ago, bigmoe Whitfield said:

I'm going to say this,  gonna need proof that they are compromised before believing it,  to many years here without ever any issues,  so the track record is proven on their end, what you are saying is "they are compromised" which is almost impossible to believe.    So prok, gonna need that proof, without it,  it's suspect.   just sayin.

You are responding to someone for whom Linden Lab is always to blame, the Second Life software itself is always to blame for varied malfunctions and for whom no evidence whatsoever to the contrary is ever accepted.

If they are ever right about anything concerning the developer or the software it is no different than the case of the broken clock combined with the Boy Who Cried Wolf. They may well get something right once in a while but their track record is against them.

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6 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

I know that techs like to chase things like avatar feet shadows and Windlight bugs but it's helpful to remember the bog-standard experience for the average person and what annoys them:

1. System puts a t-shirt on you, unasked, and you can't delete it, you first have to take it off, then delete it.

2. When you log on, your money shows ???, and if you forget to click on it once, when you attempt to buy something, it tells you that you have "no" money.

3. Group chat lags or doesn't show at all.

4. Edit window opens directly over the object you are editing, so you can't see it. When you push it to the side, it doesn't stay put even in one long-on session.

5. Some sims are triggering anti-virus programs and showing malware not on users' land, not on their URLs, and not in deeded objects. This leaves: Linden sims.

6. TPs often don't work from the World Map

7. Objects with images on them continue to show as gray squares long after you have been on the sim.

8. Names in full cannot be search on groups; you have to type one or two letters and scroll through.

9. In large inventories, the cursor slips and sometimes will not stay put even after you click on it.

10. When Advanced Lighting is checked off, along with show parcel boundaries, the boundary lines from the sim you are on and nearby sims bleed through all objects, creating visual annoyances.

 

1. What? I've never seen this happen... are you a teen account?

2. That's something on your end. This should only ever happen rarely if at all. Sounds like a bad, failing or blocked connection.

3. Group chats have always lagged, always will. Not showing at all... haha. That would be good!

4. That's something on your end. Sounds like your settings aren't being saved. Make sure you have access and write permissions to your AppData folders.

5. That's something on your end. Also practically impossible.

6. That's something on your end. Unless a good chunk of the grid is having issues or you are teleporting to dying regions which ... are caused by what i can only assume are people that report the same issues as you do, because they cause them.

7. That's something on your end. Even when the the entire grid is dying, downloading textures has never failed, content delivery is done via entirely different servers. I suspect you have an antiv.... yea you do. Probably bad configuration or an overzealous antivirus app.

8. What?

9. What? That sounds like a bug one that i haven't seen so far nor has anyone reported to me.

10. Why do you turn off Advanced Lighting? x10

Almost all your issues sound self-inflicted and they also sound like a badly configured firewall, antivirus, defeender, vpn, internet or something like that.

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2 hours ago, NiranV Dean said:

1. What? I've never seen this happen... are you a teen account?

2. That's something on your end. This should only ever happen rarely if at all. Sounds like a bad, failing or blocked connection.

3. Group chats have always lagged, always will. Not showing at all... haha. That would be good!

4. That's something on your end. Sounds like your settings aren't being saved. Make sure you have access and write permissions to your AppData folders.

5. That's something on your end. Also practically impossible.

6. That's something on your end. Unless a good chunk of the grid is having issues or you are teleporting to dying regions which ... are caused by what i can only assume are people that report the same issues as you do, because they cause them.

7. That's something on your end. Even when the the entire grid is dying, downloading textures has never failed, content delivery is done via entirely different servers. I suspect you have an antiv.... yea you do. Probably bad configuration or an overzealous antivirus app.

8. What?

9. What? That sounds like a bug one that i haven't seen so far nor has anyone reported to me.

10. Why do you turn off Advanced Lighting? x10

Almost all your issues sound self-inflicted and they also sound like a badly configured firewall, antivirus, defeender, vpn, internet or something like that.

Um, a teen account? I've been in SL since 2004 and I'm 16 years old. Don't be ridiculous. The system t-shirt thing is a bug occasionally fixed when I file a ticket.

The money showing as ??? has gone on for years and I'm not the only one with it, and it's not about "settings," don't be silly.

I've never seen this AVG thing go off until last year, when it began, and then continued, on this one sim. Every lot, URL, setting, deeded media etc etc has been policed. It's being explained in various ways but not being fixed.

The edit window is something other people inworld acknowledge; people on the forums who don't log in don't acknowledge. Next.

TPs remain broken; as recently as Oct. 2, LL admitted this; they continue to not work in places. The end.

Everyone I know was reporting grey squares last night, for example.

Again, I think the trouble is you people don't log in and try to do things. Or you are on the beta grid. Or you are on a private island somewhere? Whatever. I'm reporting what happens on the Mainland. 

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The trouble with malware reports from anti-virus software is that none of this software is 100% reliable. They look for patterns in a file which match some fingerprint, and sometimes they get a match just by chance. They're trying to fix a hard problem. If there is a genuine problem you need to be specific, operating system, viewer, and anti-virus software. It's something I try to do, and I know I'm not perfect.

Without the specifics, this claim is no more reliable than one of those out-of-the-blue phonecalls from some Windows help centre. I stay polite, but I am running Linux, and they never know my IP address, nor who my ISP is.

I am carefully not claiming that your report is part of a con game, but how am I supposed to tell the difference? You're following the same pattern of unsupported, scary, claims.

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You are "reporting" what you alone claim to see happening. You do not speak for anyone else.

If anyone else is experiencing any of the issues you've listed, they can come here and speak up.

Hmm, and as usual you try to fall back on the tired old "But I actually use the software/spend time here" tactic that is nothing more than a load. The sort of problems you have described do not care where a user's Grid location is.

Many of your points have been brought up before and nearly all of them have been explained/debunked with you simply not accepting the answers given. Just like you are doing now.

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9 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Um, a teen account? I've been in SL since 2004 and I'm 16 years old. Don't be ridiculous. The system t-shirt thing is a bug occasionally fixed when I file a ticket.

The money showing as ??? has gone on for years and I'm not the only one with it, and it's not about "settings," don't be silly.

I've never seen this AVG thing go off until last year, when it began, and then continued, on this one sim. Every lot, URL, setting, deeded media etc etc has been policed. It's being explained in various ways but not being fixed.

The edit window is something other people inworld acknowledge; people on the forums who don't log in don't acknowledge. Next.

TPs remain broken; as recently as Oct. 2, LL admitted this; they continue to not work in places. The end.

Everyone I know was reporting grey squares last night, for example.

Again, I think the trouble is you people don't log in and try to do things. Or you are on the beta grid. Or you are on a private island somewhere? Whatever. I'm reporting what happens on the Mainland. 

It's easy for you to point at me and say i'm not logging in isn't it?

I'm actively developing my own Viewer since 9 years now, i have to login and do stuff to test my Viewer and changes.

None of the issues you describe either appear in this quantity nor at all. The quantity you describe leaves only bad internet/vpn or firewall/antivirus configuration open. I don't believe in these things happening this frequently without reason. LL's servers can be ***** and when they are we all know because its usually a grid-wide known issue that's being reported on the grid status page. Almost all of these issues can be due to a single bigger problem. SL is a very complex system and only failing to connect to a single service or having the Viewer fail to initialize a single system during login can cause a catastrophic chain reaction which can lead to harmless things like your friendlist being completely offline to begin with or your balance being ??? or a complete and total disaster of being completely unable to move/teleport and being stuck in place until you log out and log in again. All of these thing's i've already seen plenty but always in quite huge timespans between each other. I'm neither on the Beta Grid, Beta bears no usage for me and i'm not on a private island either, i go around clubs and when i'm not shopping or hanging around with some friends i'm usually sitting on my TPV parcel which is publicly available and periodically crawling on its teeth due to only 2-3 people on the other side of the region on the Firestorm parcel, not to mention the region diarrheas all over the place whenever another one jumps in freezing the region for a solid 10 seconds, even then none of these issues happen.

Also the Edit window thing is again either due to your settings not saving (window positions are saved into your viewer settings file) or a client bug of whatever client you use (i can guarantee you that's not the case in my Viewer at least, i use the Edit window a lot and it never opens up on top of the objects, probably because it opens centered on your screen). Unable to save can be a OS issue, a folder permission issue or again simply being a bug of whatever Viewer you use. I'd assume though that its the first two since an obvious bug like that would have been found, reported and fixed a thousand times over already.

"Everyone" reporting grey squares (textures not loading) as mentioned is due to technical issues when as mentioned before too the grid services are having trouble. I doubt they are having trouble basically all the time.

TP's work fine here. It's either you being simply overburdened and laggy, timing you out on teleport or the region absolutely dying due to overburdened people. There's still the chance that there are griefers and/or laggy scripts in homes (since its mainland theres a lot of stuff going on) but i doubt that especially on what sounds like basically the entire mainland.

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1 minute ago, NiranV Dean said:

It's easy for you to point at me and say i'm not logging in isn't it?

I'm actively developing my own Viewer since 9 years now, i have to login and do stuff to test my Viewer and changes.

None of the issues you describe either appear in this quantity nor at all. The quantity you describe leaves only bad internet/vpn or firewall/antivirus configuration open. I don't believe in these things happening this frequently without reason. LL's servers can be ***** and when they are we all know because its usually a grid-wide known issue that's being reported on the grid status page. Almost all of these issues can be due to a single bigger problem. SL is a very complex system and only failing to connect to a single service or having the Viewer fail to initialize a single system during login can cause a catastrophic chain reaction which can lead to harmless things like your friendlist being completely offline to begin with or your balance being ??? or a complete and total disaster of being completely unable to move/teleport and being stuck in place until you log out and log in again. All of these thing's i've already seen plenty but always in quite huge timespans between each other. I'm neither on the Beta Grid, Beta bears no usage for me and i'm not on a private island either, i go around clubs and when i'm not shopping or hanging around with some friends i'm usually sitting on my TPV parcel which is publicly available and periodically crawling on its teeth due to only 2-3 people on the other side of the region on the Firestorm parcel, not to mention the region diarrheas all over the place whenever another one jumps in freezing the region for a solid 10 seconds, even then none of these issues happen.

Also the Edit window thing is again either due to your settings not saving (window positions are saved into your viewer settings file) or a client bug of whatever client you use (i can guarantee you that's not the case in my Viewer at least, i use the Edit window a lot and it never opens up on top of the objects, probably because it opens centered on your screen). Unable to save can be a OS issue, a folder permission issue or again simply being a bug of whatever Viewer you use. I'd assume though that its the first two since an obvious bug like that would have been found, reported and fixed a thousand times over already.

"Everyone" reporting grey squares (textures not loading) as mentioned is due to technical issues when as mentioned before too the grid services are having trouble. I doubt they are having trouble basically all the time.

TP's work fine here. It's either you being simply overburdened and laggy, timing you out on teleport or the region absolutely dying due to overburdened people. There's still the chance that there are griefers and/or laggy scripts in homes (since its mainland theres a lot of stuff going on) but i doubt that especially on what sounds like basically the entire mainland.

That's nice.

Re: the triggering of the AV - a Linden is making a JIRA about this now. So whatever.

Re: TPs, it was listed as an issue on the Grid Status. So again, whatever.

The window opening over the object across years, over many different computers and systems and Internet providers, is not somehow "only my problem".

Grey squares has been going on for way too long for too many people.

Etc.

How's the weather on the beta grid?

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8 hours ago, arabellajones said:

The trouble with malware reports from anti-virus software is that none of this software is 100% reliable. They look for patterns in a file which match some fingerprint, and sometimes they get a match just by chance. They're trying to fix a hard problem. If there is a genuine problem you need to be specific, operating system, viewer, and anti-virus software. It's something I try to do, and I know I'm not perfect.

Without the specifics, this claim is no more reliable than one of those out-of-the-blue phonecalls from some Windows help centre. I stay polite, but I am running Linux, and they never know my IP address, nor who my ISP is.

I am carefully not claiming that your report is part of a con game, but how am I supposed to tell the difference? You're following the same pattern of unsupported, scary, claims.

Fortunately the Lindens, who take multiple logs and investigate things with far more good will and science than people on the forums, don't share your view.

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@Prokofy Neva:Prok, I've been following your tussle with Linden Lab since 2008.  Did it ever occur to you that you have irritated LL so much that they really ARE messing with you?

Nearly all your gripes over the years have been down to your odd local system configuration or ISP maladies.

 

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59 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

That's nice.

Re: the triggering of the AV - a Linden is making a JIRA about this now. So whatever.

Re: TPs, it was listed as an issue on the Grid Status. So again, whatever.

The window opening over the object across years, over many different computers and systems and Internet providers, is not somehow "only my problem".

Grey squares has been going on for way too long for too many people.

Etc.

How's the weather on the beta grid?

A JIRA as it can get, many JIRA's are being forgotten or simply opened to be declined. Opened by Lindens or not.

As i said, global issues that can happen occasionally don't mean "i'm having these issues all day". It seems like you're not reading/understanding at all.

My edit window always opens to wherever i last closed it. Across all accounts, across multiple systems over years. You also apparently left out testing Viewers. Just because a chunk of users have the same issue doesn't make a YOU issue less the case. A lot of my users face similar issues due to a weird or badly configured OS. Sometimes they can't install the Viewer, sometimes they can't replace files, sometimes they cant even save their settings. All because of either an antivirus going nuts over nothing (usually Defender) or your drive/folder permissions being wonky (or even user control permissions in worst case)

image.thumb.png.6cb8d9b9c008de19e37d9fc1b5e39be9.png

I see no grey squares here, do you? I don't see my edit window opening on top of the selected object either, the teleport here worked fast and almost instantaneous too, just like always.

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Just now, Jackson Redstar said:

#! is Linden allowing display names that can be written in Klingon, Vulcan or just a bunch or random crap strung together!

THIS, THIS RIGHT HERE pls fix. It's SO annoying if you can't even read someone's name, how the **** am i supposed to have a normal conversation with them.

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Based on questions we get here in the forums, #2 seems to be a somewhat common issue primarily within the Linden Viewer.  I don't recall too many times people asking about it when using other viewers.

LL knows about #3 - has been an issue during my entire SLife.  They claim they are working on it.

I've experienced #9 a few times, but for me it always clears if I close all inventory windows and reopen them.

Pretty sure I've not encountered any of the other issues.  If any of them are viewer specific, like #2 seems to be, that might explain why I've not had the issues, since I almost never use the LL viewer.

 

 

41 minutes ago, Jackson Redstar said:

#! is Linden allowing display names that can be written in Klingon, Vulcan or just a bunch or random crap strung together!

^^^ Most definitely this !!!!

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39 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Based on questions we get here in the forums, #2 seems to be a somewhat common issue primarily within the Linden Viewer.  I don't recall too many times people asking about it when using other viewers.

LL knows about #3 - has been an issue during my entire SLife.  They claim they are working on it.

I've experienced #9 a few times, but for me it always clears if I close all inventory windows and reopen them.

Pretty sure I've not encountered any of the other issues.  If any of them are viewer specific, like #2 seems to be, that might explain why I've not had the issues, since I almost never use the LL viewer.

 

 

^^^ Most definitely this !!!!

Snark here not (entirely) intended: Not seeing many TPV users reporting/complaining about the ??? balance issue might simply be because the average user of TPVs appears to be a bit more proactive/knowledgeable (putting it politely here) and less likely to go nuclear when the unexpected happens.

As a personal case in point on that, I've had a ??? balance quite a few times over the years, including when using TPVs (have to use them exclusively now thanks to OS) and after the first time seeing it and going looking for a solution I just shrug it off as logging in at a bad time during a Maintenance cycle (the only times I have ever run across that) and also actively avoid logging in if I see either the Main Channel or RC Channels undergoing Rolling Restarts.

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1 hour ago, Jackson Redstar said:

#! is Linden allowing display names that can be written in Klingon, Vulcan or just a bunch or random crap strung together!

Oh my how I truly hate those odd character names.it gives me a headache just trying to work out someone's name!

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59 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

Snark here not (entirely) intended: Not seeing many TPV users reporting/complaining about the ??? balance issue might simply be because the average user of TPVs appears to be a bit more proactive/knowledgeable (putting it politely here) and less likely to go nuclear when the unexpected happens.

As a personal case in point on that, I've had a ??? balance quite a few times over the years, including when using TPVs (have to use them exclusively now thanks to OS) and after the first time seeing it and going looking for a solution I just shrug it off as logging in at a bad time during a Maintenance cycle (the only times I have ever run across that) and also actively avoid logging in if I see either the Main Channel or RC Channels undergoing Rolling Restarts.

I've also had this happen a few times and I assume the same thing.  Just something temporary and nothing to fix or worry about.  I just hit up a friend and have them pay me 1L..done, fixed, no problem.  It's so much not an issue that I wouldn't even bother reporting it anywhere.  It's happened maybe a half dozen times in 10 yrs.  

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1 hour ago, RowanMinx said:

I've also had this happen a few times and I assume the same thing.  Just something temporary and nothing to fix or worry about.  I just hit up a friend and have them pay me 1L..done, fixed, no problem.  It's so much not an issue that I wouldn't even bother reporting it anywhere.  It's happened maybe a half dozen times in 10 yrs.  

Heck, I just poke the balance itself and let the Buy floater load in fully.

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On 10/5/2020 at 8:53 PM, Prokofy Neva said:

1. System puts a t-shirt on you, unasked, and you can't delete it, you first have to take it off, then delete it.

 

On 10/6/2020 at 4:04 AM, NiranV Dean said:

1. What? I've never seen this happen... are you a teen account?

This is a thing. It's a "feature" not a bug. It's something Vir added during a round of SSA fixes years ago but I'm too lazy to find the commit.
If a system clothing layer in your COF can't be found or is missing from database or whatever, the viewer creates a new asset of the same type Called "New Shirt" or whatever the asset type it is & forces it to be worn.  It's created in the Lost & Found folder of inventory & has a blank white texture.

 

Edited by Whirly Fizzle
SSA not SAA
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10 hours ago, Whirly Fizzle said:

 

This is a thing. It's a "feature" not a bug. It's something Vir added during a round of SAA fixes years ago but I'm too lazy to find the commit.
If a system clothing layer in your COF can't be found or is missing from database or whatever, the viewer creates a new asset of the same type Called "New Shirt" or whatever the asset type it is & forces it to be worn.  It's created in the Lost & Found folder of inventory & has a blank white texture.

 

Whirly, when the log-ons are rocky -- and they often are -- the system is putting on this unwanted t-shirt for clothes that in fact are NOT missing and are in the outfit, it's just they haven't loaded yet. So it's an annoyance for sure. This is really the nanny state at work, I have to say. If something is missing for any real length of time, I can replace it myself, you know? I don't need the library white Philip Linden newbie shirt to be forced on me.

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14 hours ago, NiranV Dean said:

A JIRA as it can get, many JIRA's are being forgotten or simply opened to be declined. Opened by Lindens or not.

As i said, global issues that can happen occasionally don't mean "i'm having these issues all day". It seems like you're not reading/understanding at all.

My edit window always opens to wherever i last closed it. Across all accounts, across multiple systems over years. You also apparently left out testing Viewers. Just because a chunk of users have the same issue doesn't make a YOU issue less the case. A lot of my users face similar issues due to a weird or badly configured OS. Sometimes they can't install the Viewer, sometimes they can't replace files, sometimes they cant even save their settings. All because of either an antivirus going nuts over nothing (usually Defender) or your drive/folder permissions being wonky (or even user control permissions in worst case)

image.thumb.png.6cb8d9b9c008de19e37d9fc1b5e39be9.png

I see no grey squares here, do you? I don't see my edit window opening on top of the selected object either, the teleport here worked fast and almost instantaneous too, just like always.

Um, it's not my AV going nuts as that would not be happening on just one or two sims, as is the case. It would happen on all sims. I travel to lots of sims. It's only happening on one, sometimes two.

 

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