Dear Designers

[HoneyBear Lovely]

On 12/12/2019 at 7:08 AM, Orwar said:

You want creators to stop making things that other people enjoy, and only make things that you want? Grow up.

Where do I say anything remotely close to this?

On 12/12/2019 at 7:08 AM, Orwar said:

If you don't like a product offered by a creator, don't buy it.

I believe that's what I said below.

On 11/23/2019 at 8:24 PM, HoneyBear Lilliehook said:

You can trust that I won't be shopping in your store, and probably won't even be back. While it's fine for some, not everyone wants to dress like that.

 

Here is the important part of this that everyone seems to have missed.

On 11/23/2019 at 8:24 PM, HoneyBear Lilliehook said:

While I may only be one shopper, believe me, there are more of us out there than you know and collectively, it will add up.

I talk to a LOT of people on a daily basis...this topic comes up often. 

So now that you've made much ado about nothing - and yes, I probably shouldn't have bothered posting - I'm adjourning.

Edited December 13, 2019 by HoneyBear Lilliehook

[Galactikat]

I hate the hypersexualization of fashion in Second Life too. It's why I prefer Japanese fashion designers/creators. They tend to value quality, creativity and uniqueness over sex appeal which is overrated to me. And I wish more designers did focus less on it, but sex sells and sheeple will be sheeple and buy it.

My favourite stores have always been Amitomo and Zenith.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

3 hours ago, charlottevics said:

I hate the hypersexualization of fashion in Second Life too. It's why I prefer Japanese fashion designers/creators. They tend to value quality, creativity and uniqueness over sex appeal which is overrated to me. And I wish more designers did focus less on it, but sex sells and sheeple will be sheeple and buy it.

My favourite stores have always been Amitomo and Zenith.

Am I missing something? Both of the stores you linked have a boatload of hypersexualized clothing. Micro skirt with garter belts, See through tops, mini tube tops, lingerie that barely covers anything, micro skirts belly shirts and thigh highs with f me heels, the list goes on..

What do you consider sexualized? a belt and nothing else? Good lord.. 

 

[Tazzie Tuque]

5 hours ago, charlottevics said:

I hate the hypersexualization of fashion in Second Life too. It's why I prefer Japanese fashion designers/creators. They tend to value quality, creativity and uniqueness over sex appeal which is overrated to me. And I wish more designers did focus less on it,

More designers DO focus on just these "quality, creativity, and uniqueness".. this is NOT limited to any ONE nationality for fashion design.  This whole discussion,  got started because someone made an observation, about the over abundance of "let it all hang out" fashions that are out there and made a statement on it.  I think I said this before, but I will say it again, 1. Sexy does NOT always mean "let it all hang out" meaning T & A.   A well designed item can be totally sexy and cover everything it needs to.  and  2.  SL is a huge place, and has a lot of diverse tastes in fashion,  there is room for it all..  it is just a matter of personal choice as to what you like or do not like.. and where you shop or do not shop.  Those T & A fashions have their place and serve their purpose for those who want them.   AND yes you are likely to find both styles in many stores, and why not?  We are free to pick and chose what we prefer.  

[Drake1 Nightfire]

Lets be completely real here.. If the first thing you see is a sexy strapy tiny dress and you flip out and TP away from that store, you will probably miss the hundreds of outfits that are more to your liking.. I havent been in a shop that sell nothing but *****wear in about 8 years.. 99% of shops sell a variety of types. If you base a store on a few items, thats YOUR problem. 

Did we really need a thread about your personal shopping style? Are you THAT shallow? Do you really think SL revolves around your shopping? Cuz it kind of sounds like it..

[Fauve Aeon]

I’d think that stores that are selling 99% club wear are successfully catering to the people who buy it else they would already be making other stuff?  I don’t like most of it for myself either but I know sexy clothes sell well in SL to all kinds of people, maybe even letting us be a little more bold for our avatar clothes than our human ones and that’s OK. I also suspect it might be easier and quicker in some cases to rig most shorter tighter items than something that covers substantially more. 
Clothes are not too hard for me to find, I like many of the Lolita fashion brands and steampunk makers, lots of the Azul gowns, quite a few of the things from Coco, Ison, Rowne. 

...but I’m also not going to go scolding a butcher because he doesn’t offer me a loaf of bread, better I go to the bakery. 😎

[MillyWH]

I had a comment but I accidentally deleted it but even in stores that are 99% sexy stuff you can find things that might work,

 

Sn@tch has club wear and sexy stuff but you can also find things like this: https://gyazo.com/8da24147dcf9840998d085a3f2b89b88

Salt & Pepper is 99% fetish, sexy and fantasy but they have this:https://gyazo.com/0d997add7e9c2b4e8208d2575fb055bd and other things

I can start listing stores that you could find thigns you might like  and I wouldn't have picked Petite Mort as being a store you would be interested in or MooH but  you have on both in your Flickr pictures.

 

Off the top of my head I can think of : Neve, Mimikri, Dead Dollz, Hilly Haalan, Entice, Well made, Vinyl, Valentina E, Belle Epoque , Riot, Beautiful Dirty Rich, PixiCat, Emery, American Beauty, Paper Arrow Co, Fashionably Dead,  most of the brands that are at Fameshed, C88, Shiny Shabby, Tres Chic, Liason Collaborative.

 

Honestly I'm having a hard time trying to think of a store that wouldn't have something that would work for you

[Sofia Gray]

I recently returned to Second Life after a pretty long hiatus. (Around 4-5 years, maybe?)  I have to say that the one thing that really shocked me upon my return was the sheer amount of content that was geared towards women with a 'sexier' edge. (For lack of a better/more appropriate term..)

The "merchant" in me recognizes the reason for this; but I remember a time when Second Life had a robust fashion community and it took me a while after I returned to accept that it's just not the same as it once was.  Some of the content creators who I used to know and appreciate for their 'cute' styling have seemingly shifted into things more revealing.  It's definitely changed the way I view and 'consume' the things that people put out there in Second Life and I've often wondered if part of this shift was the implementation of mesh.  There are definitely ways to service more conservative fashion with Mesh, but it often requires 'full' outfits of some kind as it's often difficult to find mesh pieces from mixed designers that 'play' nicely together without them being created for the sole intent of 'fitting' together.  (I've sometimes joked that I want to make a new SL Blog called "The Crop-Top Diaries" or something... 😂)

Gone are the days of DAZZLE / LAST CALL 💔  - though even then you'd find a few risque pieces in his mix - but there are still plenty of content creators out there making quality clothes that don't require all your bits to hang out.  (At least not all at the same time... )

Edited January 12, 2020 by Sofia Gray

[Tazzie Tuque]

56 minutes ago, Sofia Gray said:

but there are still plenty of content creators out there making quality clothes that don't require all your bits to hang out.  (At least not all at the same time... )

There certainly are!  In fact there is absolutely no shortage at all..  But folks have to be willing to look further than the "big names" to find it,  just saying.

[MillyWH]

38 minutes ago, Sofia Gray said:

I recently returned to Second Life after a pretty long hiatus. (Around 4-5 years, maybe?)  I have to say that the one thing that really shocked me upon my return was the sheer amount of content that was geared towards women with a 'sexier' edge. (For lack of a better/more appropriate term..)

The "merchant" in me recognizes the reason for this; but I remember a time when Second Life had a robust fashion community and it took me a while after I returned to accept that it's just not the same as it once was.  Some of the content creators who I used to know and appreciate for their 'cute' styling have seemingly shifted into things more revealing.  It's definitely changed the way I view and 'consume' the things that people put out there in Second Life and I've often wondered if part of this shift was the implementation of mesh.  There are definitely ways to service more conservative fashion with Mesh, but it often requires 'full' outfits of some kind as it's often difficult to find mesh pieces from mixed designers that 'play' nicely together without them being created for the sole intent of 'fitting' together.  (I've sometimes joked that I want to make a new SL Blog called "The Crop-Top Diaries" or something... 😂)

Gone are the days of DAZZLE / LAST CALL 💔  - though even then you'd find a few risque pieces in his mix - but there are still plenty of content creators out there making quality clothes that don't require all your bits to hang out.  (At least not all at the same time... )

I think Mesh is amazing but one thing I hate is difficulty or complete inability to mix clothes and make new looks and outfits. Prior to mesh you could, for instance, rip apart a dress and use the top or the skirt for something else. Now most separates are just one piece where parts can be hidden. Or you have issues with mesh poking through. Although Neve does have options to hide waistbands, belt loops, etc that makes their clothes more mixable than others.  

[Sofia Gray]

21 minutes ago, Tazzie Tuque said:

There certainly are!  In fact there is absolutely no shortage at all..  But folks have to be willing to look further than the "big names" to find it,  just saying.

I think there's an element to that around how other designers market themselves these days.  I'm not as inclined as I once was to spend countless hours wandering aimlessly through stores because it doesn't seem as though there's as much of an emphasis on a fun 'store' experience as there once was.  (Think: Armidi, Naughty Designs, Tableau (which still exists..))  I think a lot of this is driven though by the lack of a social community for it.

Again, as someone who first came to the grid over 13 years ago:  A lot has changed.  It seems to be like most 'discovery' is done via collaborative shopping events.  (i.e.: C88, FaMeshed, equal10, Anthem, etc. etc. etc...)  Rarely have I discovered a quality designer from something other than a shopping event since I've returned.  I feel as though I don't really even see a ton of quality blogger content anymore to influence my decisions...(although there seems to be no shortage of 'bloggers').

 

Edited January 13, 2020 by Sofia Gray

[Ingrid Ingersoll]

On 12/1/2019 at 7:43 AM, Talligurl said:

 

She has a point, I am sure there is something we all are not interested in, should we all start threads threatening to not shop in places that sell them?

She's expressing her dislike of something and hoping it will change. She's not threatening, she's stating that she won't shop there. We all do this. Why does everyone get their knickers in a twist when someone expresses their opinion about clothes, shapes or whatever pixels. I don't like trashy clothes in sl either. And I don't buy them. Flame on!

[Ingrid Ingersoll]

On 1/12/2020 at 7:43 PM, Sofia Gray said:

(Think: Armidi, Naughty Designs, Tableau (which still exists..)) 

OMG Armidi! I remember

[BelindaN]

I have a lot of clubbing outfits, but I also have a lot of Jeans, tops and jumpers, and even coats. 

Jean's and tops are everywhere in the big name stores, but you all know that?

It's just a matter of finding those which fit together. The recent Blueberry mega pack of blouse/skirt/jeans/boots is a great country girl look. Ok the blouse is wide open, but nothing that an applier camisole type lingerie top or bra wont fix.

[Talligurl]

5 hours ago, Ingrid Ingersoll said:

 Why does everyone get their knickers in a twist when someone expresses their opinion about clothes,

Because that isn't how it works. Designers sell what people want to buy, the fact that a certain product is out there means there are people who want to buy it. If you do not want to buy it fine, don't. To go on a rant about it though is an attempt to get it taken off the market, which would mean all those people who want it, would not be able to have it. It is a way of saying that everyone should be just like you. It disrespects the fact that we all are different.

[Bitsy Buccaneer]

3 minutes ago, Talligurl said:

Because that isn't how it works. Designers sell what people want to buy, the fact that a certain product is out there means there are people who want to buy it. If you do not want to buy it fine, don't. To go on a rant about it though is an attempt to get it taken off the market, which would mean all those people who want it, would not be able to have it. It is a way of saying that everyone should be just like you. It disrespects the fact that we all are different.

Get it taken off the market? Please show me where you think anyone has said that. Maybe I'm wrong, but I've read the posts as attempts to point out that there's an underserved market of customers who prefer other things. In other words, respecting and acknowledging difference.

[Raspberry Crystal]

On 1/12/2020 at 11:24 PM, Sofia Gray said:

I recently returned to Second Life after a pretty long hiatus. (Around 4-5 years, maybe?)  I have to say that the one thing that really shocked me upon my return was the sheer amount of content that was geared towards women with a 'sexier' edge. (For lack of a better/more appropriate term..)

The "merchant" in me recognizes the reason for this; but I remember a time when Second Life had a robust fashion community and it took me a while after I returned to accept that it's just not the same as it once was.  Some of the content creators who I used to know and appreciate for their 'cute' styling have seemingly shifted into things more revealing.  It's definitely changed the way I view and 'consume' the things that people put out there in Second Life and I've often wondered if part of this shift was the implementation of mesh.  There are definitely ways to service more conservative fashion with Mesh, but it often requires 'full' outfits of some kind as it's often difficult to find mesh pieces from mixed designers that 'play' nicely together without them being created for the sole intent of 'fitting' together.  (I've sometimes joked that I want to make a new SL Blog called "The Crop-Top Diaries" or something... 😂)

Gone are the days of DAZZLE / LAST CALL 💔  - though even then you'd find a few risque pieces in his mix - but there are still plenty of content creators out there making quality clothes that don't require all your bits to hang out.  (At least not all at the same time... )

Finding pieces that mix together has been a challenge for me too. In the end mixing mesh with an underlayer of 'applier' basics seemed to work. I'm wondering if part of the problem is in who is actually making the meshes that underlie the textured clothing? How much contact do they have with the end customer? Unless someone has the ability to create a whole piece of clothing themselves, and run a shop then there's got to be some communication problems along the way. Surely most retailers are texturing ready-made meshes?

Edited January 15, 2020 by Raspberry Crystal

[Drake1 Nightfire]

2 minutes ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

Get it taken off the market? Please show me where you think anyone has said that. Maybe I'm wrong, but I've read the posts as attempts to point out that there's an underserved market of customers who prefer other things. In other words, respecting and acknowledging difference.

Its not sounding like she wants it taken off the market, but there is a very definite threat there. A very dumb sounding threat... More of a "I won't shop in your store and neither will the other people you aren't catering to." Which to me is a "well, duh." moment. 

"Hey, I dont like fantasy RP so if that's all you sell i won't be shopping in your store." Do you see how stupid that sounds? 

"Hey, you don't sell Fords in your Chevy dealership, so i wont be shopping here."

"Hey, you don't sell chinese food at Olive Garden so i wont be eating there." 

Obviously, if someone is selling a certain style, they have customers that support that choice. To point out that there are other customers who want other things is IMHO, silly. Trust me, the merchants know. 

[Drake1 Nightfire]

8 minutes ago, Raspberry Crystal said:

Finding pieces that mix together has been a challenge for me too. In the end mixing mesh with an underlayer of 'applier' basics seemed to work. I'm wondering if part of the problem is in who is actually making the meshes that underlie the textured clothing? How much contact do they have with the end customer? Unless someone has the ability to create a whole piece of clothing themselves, and run a shop then there's got to be some communication problems along the way. Surely most retailers are texturing ready-made meshes?

There is no communication between the full perm mesh maker and the final customer, IE the person who buys the final finished textured mesh. Most of the very big names make their own mesh, the smaller stores use full perm mesh and make their own textures, which is why you will see several stores with the same mesh but different textures.

The easy way around covering up the parts you want covered up now is to use a BOM body and wear a system layer under your mesh clothing. Your top is too open for your liking? Wear a system tank top under it. Skirt a tad too short, wear system bike shorts or leggings. 

[Raspberry Crystal]

1 minute ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Obviously, if someone is selling a certain style, they have customers that support that choice. To point out that there are other customers who want other things is IMHO, silly. Trust me, the merchants know. 

I've been into shops where I have huge difficulty believing the merchant is selling anything at all. You are maybe expecting more logic than is generally used? Maybe it's the same kind of mindset that holds onto a piece of land that was bought over-priced, and then continues to pay tier for years afterwards rather than drop the price to sell it on. Just because a place  exists, in SL it does not mean that it is necessarily successful.

[Raspberry Crystal]

1 minute ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

The easy way around covering up the parts you want covered up now is to use a BOM body and wear a system layer under your mesh clothing. Your top is too open for your liking? Wear a system tank top under it. Skirt a tad too short, wear system bike shorts or leggings. 

I will switch to BOM when Maitreya updates, and probably carry on doing what i was doing before with less impact. However, I will continue to seek out shops that have clothes I like in their original state, as I do in real life. 

[Drake1 Nightfire]

2 minutes ago, Raspberry Crystal said:

I've been into shops where I have huge difficulty believing the merchant is selling anything at all. You are maybe expecting more logic than is generally used? Maybe it's the same kind of mindset that holds onto a piece of land that was bought over-priced, and then continues to pay tier for years afterwards rather than drop the price to sell it on. Just because a place  exists, in SL it does not mean that it is necessarily successful.

Define successful. Enough to cover SL rent? RL rent? All RL bills? All RL bill and then some? What if they create things because they simply enjoy creating things? 

2 minutes ago, Raspberry Crystal said:

I will switch to BOM when Maitreya updates, and probably carry on doing what i was doing before with less impact. However, I will continue to seek out shops that have clothes I like in their original state, as I do in real life. 

They have a BOM relay hub on the MP for free...  https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Maitreya-Bakes-on-Mesh-Relay-HUD/17978540

Never once has anyone said not to find a shop that sells clothing you like. I have said to give every store a chance and take a look around. You may just find a hidden gem in all the ****wear. 

[Tazzie Tuque]

On 1/12/2020 at 7:43 PM, Sofia Gray said:

I feel as though I don't really even see a ton of quality blogger content anymore to influence my decisions...(although there seems to be no shortage of 'bloggers').

AMEN!  I find it really hard to tell just what an article of clothing really looks like when it is presented in a mega busy background, with harsh glaring lighting, on a way distorted body shape,  which seems to be the trend for some so called bloggers these days.  I will follow a blogger link, but the minute it shows up looking like some bizarre abstract it gets quickly clicked off.  Too many like that out there trying to be creative, but failing miserably, which does nothing to help the designer of the clothing at all!!    And this is sad, because that article of clothing might be awesome but you could never tell by the blog post.

[Raspberry Crystal]

@Drake1 Nightfire The maitreya group note described the current BOM update as a temporary fix for people to experiment with (unless I've missed a more recent notice?) My definition of successful would be to enjoy the experience of owning a shop, and also cover the rent. (though someone doing it for consciously altruistic reasons would also count in a different way)

I have a feeling that some owners are running at a loss so as to have the experience of being a shop owner / fashion designer, some because they want to cater to a niche market for reasons other than profit and others because they have an unrealistic idea of what is actually involved in maintaining a business. Frankly some seem to have simply forgotten they own a shop at all and just left the half *rsed, outdated,  pink shiny coated horror-cube complete with broken sales boards solely for the viewing benefit of passers by.

[BelindaN]

I'm just happy that there are people in SL who are prepared to be merchants and have big stores for me to wander round when I get the urge.

It's very rare for me to go to any in world store and not find something I must have. It's an addiction I enjoy. And because I don't come here to hang out in my scruffy like I do in RL....... I can quite easily buy up lots of clubbing outfits. You only have to go to any of the big names to see how popular they are.