Linden Lab a suggestion for creation.

[Sarahbuxso]

So I was thinking for a very long time how it would be a nice idea if creators would be able to create completely with mesh in world, and by that I mean without the use of third party programs like back in the old days where we were able to create with the tools given to us. It would be a nice idea to possibly get some new tools in here! Just an idea, maybe a stupid one but not everyone has time to learn high tech programs, anyway that's just my two cents.

Edited September 28, 2019 by Sarahbuxso

[FairreLilette]

18 minutes ago, Sarahbuxso said:

So I was thinking for a very long time how it would be a nice idea if creators would be able to create completely with mesh in world, and by that I mean without the use of third party programs like back in the old days where we were able to create with the tools given to us. It would be a nice idea to possibly get some new tools in here! Just an idea, maybe a stupid one but not everyone has time to learn high tech programs, anyway that's just my two cents.

I've thought about it too.  

I even suggested it at the beginning of my Second Life here by suggesting I would even pay for a viewer with built-in mesh building tools, but not much more than say $6.95 a month.  

It's just a matter of is LL willing to spend the money to create it?

[Adam Spark]

I would love this. I would even settle for a separate but Linden offered mesh creator. At least it could theoretically make it easier to create mesh designed with SL in mind.

[Rob Huntsman]

Then we couldn't pay Linden Labs to upload mesh for us. It would be a major hit on the economy.

[Rhonda Huntress]

Lab is singular.   Linden Lab.

There can be only one!

 

[Rhonda Huntress]

And it is NOT a stupid idea at all.  SL was originally created with end user in world construction in mind and it is something that has been lacking in recent years.

[Sarahbuxso]

I personally would love it, sorry about the misspell.

Edited September 28, 2019 by Sarahbuxso

[JUSTUS Palianta]

I think you will find everyone is for this, including me.  Its really annoying having to learn blender, maya or marvelous designer to make a dress for second life.  It it is preventing creativity.  It is no longer the would you can imagine that you can create, you can only create it if you have the software and the time to learn it.

by the way i have been creating clothes in SL for 12 years

Edited September 28, 2019 by JUSTUS Palianta
edited because i'm ranting

[Maitimo]

6 hours ago, Haselden said:

Then we couldn't pay Linden Labs to upload mesh for us. It would be a major hit on the economy.

Not if we're paying extra for the feature. I think it's an excellent idea, I would love to see this happen, and I would definitely be willing to pay for it.

[Mollymews]

if Super Duper Premium account needed to log in with such a LL viewer then I be into that.  Even if it was closed source

[Lindal Kidd]

It sure would be super cool to see the item take shape in world, the way a prim object does.  I'm in favor!

[Blush Bravin]

14 hours ago, JUSTUS Palianta said:

Its really annoying having to learn blender, maya or marvelous designer to make a dress for second life.

Even in the old days you had to make clothing outside of SL in some type of photo imaging program like Photoshop or Gimp. I agree that it's much more complicated to make clothing now with mesh but I don't see the lab ever adding mesh tools sophisticated enough to do rigged mesh clothing. 

19 hours ago, Sarahbuxso said:

It would be a nice idea to possibly get some new tools in here! Just an idea, maybe a stupid one but not everyone has time to learn high tech programs,

It's possible now to create a prim based structure/object and then save that linked object as a .dae file using Firestorm and then upload that build back into SL as a mesh object. I don't mind using Blender to create content, but I do miss being able to be in-world making content the way I did before mesh. I do use Mesh Studio from time to time when I want to build with standard prims and then meshify that build. So if you want to build the old fashioned way or using tools inside of SL there are options in place now that will allow you to do exactly that.

[Alyona Su]

20 hours ago, Sarahbuxso said:

So I was thinking for a very long time how it would be a nice idea if creators would be able to create completely with mesh in world, and by that I mean without the use of third party programs like back in the old days where we were able to create with the tools given to us. It would be a nice idea to possibly get some new tools in here! Just an idea, maybe a stupid one but not everyone has time to learn high tech programs, anyway that's just my two cents.

There is always this: https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Mesh-Generator-Convert-Prim-into-Mesh/5445477

Though you sill should learn about and understand mesh and how it works well in Second Life. It's also is still a good idea to learn and use a 3D app like Blender, but apparently it's not a requirement. I know enough about Blender that I can funnel my way around and even edit and what models, but not create a new model from scratch, though I can build a mean prim (and in truth, I actually prefer prims to mesh or sculpts for razzed objects, provided they are well-built - because they are more efficient, low lag, and zero LOD problems EVER.)

In any case, the Mesh generator I link to above is probably the closest you will ever be able to come to create mesh "in-world". And though I link to that one, there are other competing products, but the current support for them in uncertain, where the Mesh Gen is apparently up-to-date and still supported.

Edited September 29, 2019 by Alyona Su

[Luna Bliss]

I don't think it's going to happen. My guess is that it would be too difficult given the constraints of how SL is limited by its beginnings and how it was constructed so long ago.  But still,

 

Edited September 29, 2019 by Luna Bliss

[FairreLilette]

2 hours ago, Alyona Su said:

There is always this: https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Mesh-Generator-Convert-Prim-into-Mesh/5445477

Though you sill should learn about and understand mesh and how it works well in Second Life. It's also is still a good idea to learn and use a 3D app like Blender, but apparently it's not a requirement. I know enough about Blender that I can funnel my way around and even edit and what models, but not create a new model from scratch, though I can build a mean prim (and in truth, I actually prefer prims to mesh or sculpts for razzed objects, provided they are well-built - because they are more efficient, low lag, and zero LOD problems EVER.)

In any case, the Mesh generator I link to above is probably the closest you will ever be able to come to create mesh "in-world". And though I link to that one, there are other competing products, but the current support for them in uncertain, where the Mesh Gen is apparently up-to-date and still supported.

That's why I have not bought it...I hear/read it is no longer supported and around $20 U.S. dollars.  I know there is Sweet Meshies group inworld to ask questions but I was hesitant about the product with no support.  I felt I'd be bombarding the inworld group with too many questions.  Though yet it could be fairly simple...I just do not know.

BUT, if mesh tools can be created elsewhere...why can they not be created in the SL viewer itself?

Or is it just too costly for LL to try it?  All things "evolve"...LL should consider it needs to evolve as well, whether now or eventually.  

[Selene Gregoire]

14 hours ago, Mollymews said:

if Super Duper Premium account needed to log in with such a LL viewer then I be into that.  Even if it was closed source

I really do wish premium accounts would stop ostracizing basics and trying to keep us from having a business in SL when we do contribute, whether directly or indirectly to the wellbeing of SL and its economy. 

I'm not saying it is done on purpose. Most premium don't stop to think about the implications or repercussions of excluding basics from being able to enjoy most of the same privileges that premiums do. Premiums already have lots of perks basics don't. 

Or are people really wanting the same equality gap that we have in RL to exist in SL? If so, good job! You've succeeded. SL has only upper and lower classes now, aka premium and basic, respectively.

[Alyona Su]

54 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

BUT, if mesh tools can be created elsewhere...why can they not be created in the SL viewer itself?

Then the viewer would become a pig-in--poke; 75% of the feature set would never be used. this is already true with the Firestorm viewer, most who use it never use most of the fFirestorm-specific features (based on all those I ask, which is a lot). It's one thing to create an app that can read 3D geometry, it's entirely another to create one that can build and author 3D geometry. It simply wouldn't;t make any sense.

As for the Mesh Generator gadget, there is a reason I linked to the demo. I have purchased and used many products that appear to be unsupported and they work fine. Though for the price of that gadget it doesn't;t make sense to go with it unless you can earn a return on your investment; create a lot of stuff that many are willing to buy from you. And so this is the real crux of the argument, isn't it?

[Alyona Su]

29 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

15 hours ago, Mollymews said:

if Super Duper Premium account needed to log in with such a LL viewer then I be into that.  Even if it was closed source

I really do wish premium accounts would stop ostracizing basics and trying to keep us from having a business in SL when we do contribute, whether directly or indirectly to the wellbeing of SL and its economy. 

Come on, Selene, how you dig up the impression of being ostracized by Molly's comment is truly beyond me, other than that you take a first-negative perspective on what everyone says, unless any positive aspect outweighs that. I agree with what Molly says: if there's a special premium level perk then there's a special premium perk. By saying I want that perk and will buy Premium to have it, how is that any kind of insult or slight agains non-premium users?

I'm not going to debate, take the last word and plonk me if you like. My point is that if you (general you, meaning anyone and everyone) take offense at something someone else says without intentional malice, then that is your own problem, deal with it. To all I say: stopping trying to find the negative in people's word, but rather how about trying to find the positives instead?

[Theresa Tennyson]

18 hours ago, JUSTUS Palianta said:

I think you will find everyone is for this, including me.  Its really annoying having to learn blender, maya or marvelous designer to make a dress for second life.  It it is preventing creativity.  It is no longer the would you can imagine that you can create, you can only create it if you have the software and the time to learn it.

by the way i have been creating clothes in SL for 12 years

It takes a certain amount of esoteric knowledge to make a mesh garment. Wouldn't you also need to learn exactly as much to make a dress with in-world tools, but then find your learning useless outside of Second Life?

[FairreLilette]

32 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

Then the viewer would become a pig-in--poke; 75% of the feature set would never be used. this is already true with the Firestorm viewer, most who use it never use most of the fFirestorm-specific features (based on all those I ask, which is a lot). It's one thing to create an app that can read 3D geometry, it's entirely another to create one that can build and author 3D geometry. It simply wouldn't;t make any sense.

As for the Mesh Generator gadget, there is a reason I linked to the demo. I have purchased and used many products that appear to be unsupported and they work fine. Though for the price of that gadget it doesn't;t make sense to go with it unless you can earn a return on your investment; create a lot of stuff that many are willing to buy from you. And so this is the real crux of the argument, isn't it?

What is the best way for LL to "evolve" it's building tools then?  

But, I was also thinking IF there was a way to create certain in-world mesh building tools, then there could be inworld schools.  And, I'd rather learn inworld as we all are doing it.

I've watched YouTube for how to do things and most I find out better by typing in my Google search "how to ___________ fill in the blank" than I do with YouTube tutorials.  And, this sentence in regards to learning Photoshop.  I learn more about Photoshop using Google search for how to's.  

I want to learn Machinima.  I watched a YouTube tutorial on Machinima yesterday...there must have been 10,000 listed 'to do' steps in ten minutes.  I was totally lost.  

Also, the FREE blender never worked for me...I always within about 15 minutes get a pop up saying...it's $9.99 a month for a Blender subscription.  And, that was too soon to ask me to buy Blender for $9.99 a month when it's difficult to follow the YouTube tutorials.  Blender is NOT new-comer friendly, in my own personal experience.

As far as the Mesh Generator, I really decided I was not interested in paying $20 dollars for something with no support.      

[Alyona Su]

4 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

Also, the FREE blender never worked for me...I always within about 15 minutes get a pop up saying...it's $9.99 a month for a Blender subscription.

THIS is something I have never seen. It could be an advertisement for Priority help or maybe self-paced lessons or a resource club or something, but it's not for Blender itself. Those or you have a whacked version of Blender (make sure you get it from the original web site).

As for builder tools in SL: they are already there: Primitive Shapes, a.k.a. "Prims" - those are mesh also. What people are referring to mesh is the single complex shapes they import. Where as a primitive can only be distorted and attached to other primitives to create a complex shape (and each prim used generally costs 1 LI, otherwise those are superior because they are built into the viewer. Quality content can still be created with prims that can even surpass the benefits of "mesh" imports, LOD being one of them.

In any case, this idea os a moot one and likely will not happen. So the best option is to find alternative ways to create your creations; using prims, using an aftermarket 3D modeling app, or the hybrid approach with a pims-to-mesh generator. In all cases there will be a learning curve.

[FairreLilette]

21 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

THIS is something I have never seen. It could be an advertisement for Priority help or maybe self-paced lessons or a resource club or something, but it's not for Blender itself. Those or you have a whacked version of Blender (make sure you get it from the original web site).

 In all cases there will be a learning curve.

Oh yeah, it is some kind of HELP offered for around ten U.S. dollars a month.  It's been two years since I tried Blender.  Anyhow, the program stopped working on me.  I tried the program quite a few times to get it to work so I could go through the YouTube tutorial again BUT the Blender would not work.  Blender kept "timing out" on me or gave me some kind of message I cannot remember.  But, it would not let me complete even one item.  It was extremely frustrating.  So, I didn't think I wanted to pay for it because I didn't know if I liked it and I thought perhaps the YouTube tutorials are just too complicated to understand and I'm putting in a wrong command or something.  

So, I gave up.

After watching the YouTube tutorials on Machinima, I feel the same way.  Like giving up and not even bothering.  

Perhaps, for me, I'm just not hungry enough if I feel like giving up because I am usually a persevering type of person.  

[Alyona Su]

8 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

Perhaps, for me, I'm just not hungry enough if I feel like giving up because I am usually a persevering type of person.  

I understand completely. I was in SL when you more or less had to learn how to build stuff because there was no other way to get what you really wanted. Even though I still have that skill now, I will just buy something if it already exists and meets mt needs or wants! I rarely build anything any more because if it's already been done, why replicate the work?

3D Modeling is a very steep learning curve (and that's all long before we even get into the subject of Second Life). My dad used to do ray tracing and modeling, so I know the basics and enough the be dangerous (as I've described above: I can work on an existing model in Blender, but not create from scratch.)  

And to be clear, I don't debunk your idea, it is a great idea, just not feasible as far as I can see.

[FairreLilette]

2 hours ago, Alyona Su said:

I understand completely. I was in SL when you more or less had to learn how to build stuff because there was no other way to get what you really wanted. Even though I still have that skill now, I will just buy something if it already exists and meets mt needs or wants! I rarely build anything any more because if it's already been done, why replicate the work?

3D Modeling is a very steep learning curve (and that's all long before we even get into the subject of Second Life). My dad used to do ray tracing and modeling, so I know the basics and enough the be dangerous (as I've described above: I can work on an existing model in Blender, but not create from scratch.)  

And to be clear, I don't debunk your idea, it is a great idea, just not feasible as far as I can see.

Yes, I can relate to the 'just buying it' part.  Plus, the market is saturated with very talented people that my desire is more around interior design and doing what I did in real life which is Shabby Chic....so to me, full perm mesh models can be very sufficient with my added Shabby Chic textures though learning mesh is not out of the question completely yet.  

And, yes, 'the just buy it part' for Machinima is true for me also as I only want two videos to send to my RL sisters, so I was thinking I would just pay someone to film the Machinimas.  I don't think I would want Machinima as a hobby.  Shabby Chic and interior design are my thing and what I have to offer.  

Although, in RL with Shabby Chic you can go to a yardsale, get a bottle of glue and/or use a needle and thread and create some amazing things in Shabby Chic.  It's not so easy to replicate that on the computer.  No instant bottle of glue on the computer to make Shabby Chic.  

Edited September 29, 2019 by FairreLilette
add in full perm

[Mollymews]

6 hours ago, FairreLilette said:

What is the best way for LL to "evolve" it's building tools then?  

thinking about this a bit. Some staged pathway I think

the first stage would to be focus initially on inworld builds rather than avatar wearables

in this stage: add more ways to torture prims. Examples: Able to bevel prim corners and edges, Able to hollow prims on more than 1 axis at the same time. Able to offset a hollow. Able to bend a prim at some offset other than center. etc etc

then stage two: able to bake linked prims into a single object. Able to subdivide/decimate faces (triangles) from the baked object. Which leads to creating LOD levels. Resize the object down and cull triangles. What we should also be able to do is link further prims and other baked objects to our object and rebake

then stage three: Avatar wearables. This is the hard part to do as it requires a weighting editor. Is doable but is not easy for a person to use such an editor in real time on a busy region server (lag). So the weight editing might have to be done client-side and then baked on Save/upload. Similar to how local textures are done, viewable inworld only by the user

a thing with this also is that when we import a Collada object as we can now, then we would be able to edit/tweak it inworld

stage two subdivide/decimate editing could also be problematic for the user when the region server is busy (lag)

if stage two/three was to eventuate then it would probably happen after the region servers have been moved off the Linden server farm. As this kind of stage two/three online editing would I think need its own dedicated service to maintain a respectable level of performance

i do think tho that stage one could be done now, more ways to torture prims. With a Export to Collada facility which some TPVs already provide. Face culling, etc needing to be done in an our own offline editor then upload as is done now