Being premium without premium benefits?

[Solar Legion]

Oh for ...

The system is the way it is for some of the very reasons already speculated on within this very thread, no official statement is required and your expectations are irrelevant (as is which region of the world you're from). All it takes is a simple glance through these fora (and others) to see that there really are users who would forget when their tier was due, forget to pick up their things and several other "issues" and then come to complain when they were charged or something went wrong.

Rather than field those questions/"concerns" Linden Lab went with the present system.

Land tier aside, when you choose to downgrade you retain all other benefits a Premium account has and guess what? You could still go out and rent from a Mainland Land Baron or a parcel on an Island!

If the land is the only reason you went Premium (land in general, not Mainland) then go do that. If the Linden Home/Mainland Tier holding isn't why you went Premium then what the heck is the issue?

The excuses given thus far - and they are excuses - hold no water whatsoever.

[Gabriele Graves]

Spin it however you wish but it changes nothing.  It is quite simple in principle, either you pay for a service and the provider actually provides you the full service for the duration of the paid period irregardless of what you do or do not do or they are not fulfilling their obligations.  It is easy to see that there is a reasonable expectation that if one aspect of the obligation is fulfilled then all aspects should be.

Justifying not fulfilling part of an obligation by emphasising the technical difficulties is just an obfuscation of the principle and essentially boils down to supporting a general concept of "it is OK to renegade on part of a deal if it is technically hard to fulfil".  People and companies attempt to get away without fulfilling their obligations all the time when they know they are likely to be able to get away with it.  It doesn't make it right.

That is the principle, in practical terms it doesn't mean that anyone pointing this out is letting this darken their day in any way, feels strongly enough to stop using the service or even expects it to be addressed immediately, etc.

Arguments pointing out that this is just a trivial thing are a misdirection away from the principle of it.

It doesn't matter how small a thing or fine point something is, if it is wrong then it is wrong in principle.  If someone wants to say this then they should be able to say it without being trivialised and I think it is a good thing that some people feel that principles are important.

Edited October 18, 2019 by Gabriele Graves

[Lexbot Sinister]

On 10/17/2019 at 5:16 PM, Alyona Su said:

They do not withdraw benefits; you choose to give up and forego benefits. It's all on you, no one else.

How is that a choice when no choice is given?

I did not choose to give up and forego benefits i have already paid for. I chose to not re-subscribe to a service. It should not matter if i make my decision one day before the subscription end, or three months. I have paid for the full time.

It's LL that should be given the choice... honor my subscription to the very last day, as paid for, or refund me my money for the service no longer offered.

 

Besides, scripting a timer-based land abandonment should be absolutely trivial. If i decide to abandon all my land  holdings at the exact moment my premium subscription runs out, no matter amount of sims and prims returned, it should be in my right to do so. 

By all means, it could be optional. But right now LL gives premium holders actually no choice in the matter whatsoever.

The day you decide to unsubscribe, all your mainland landholdings have to go.  That isn't a choice, that is arm-twisting.I'm also an european, so to me, from consumer standpoint it's an unacceptable practice.

 

It makes me actually confused to see people trivializing and belittling the people that lift this up as a problem. Are they harming you in some way? Would being able to keep full premium perks until the last day of subscription ruin your SL in any way?

Edited October 19, 2019 by Lexbot Sinister

[Theresa Tennyson]

7 hours ago, Lexbot Sinister said:

I did not choose to give up and forego benefits i have already paid for. I chose to not re-subscribe to a service. It should not matter if i make my decision one day before the subscription end, or three months. I have paid for the full time.

You obviously have never tried to end a gym membership in the Consumer's Paradise:

http://expat-relocation.net/germany/226-sports-in-germany/420-canceling-a-gym-membership

[Resi Pfeffer]

On 10/19/2019 at 11:35 AM, Theresa Tennyson said:

You obviously have never tried to end a gym membership in the Consumer's Paradise:

http://expat-relocation.net/germany/226-sports-in-germany/420-canceling-a-gym-membership

You missed the point entirely.

-That article is about a 3 month deadline before the contract ends. If you dont write the termination letter earlier than 3 months, the contract will be extended, by 12 or 24 months.
That clause is already written in the contract, when its signed. No surprise for anyone.

-This 3 month deadline doesnt change anything. You still have access to the gym, being allowed to use all the devices, until the very last day, no matter, when you write the termination letter.

-That article is 5 years old. Things changed partially. At some bigger gym chains, like McFit you even can pause your contract up to 9 months. Great for people like me, who just want to go to the gym in winter time.

-My gym offers a 20 Euro/month option, bound to a 12 month contract, or 30 Euro/month option where i can cancel every month.

Like you said, it is Consumers Paradise. But dont be jealous about, better fight for it in your country.

Same should be said to @Alyona Su. You can laugh as much as you want about. I dont laugh about you, because when im right guessing where you are from, its very clear, that you are used to keep your head down and to go with the flow.

Edited October 20, 2019 by Resi Pfeffer
typo

[Theresa Tennyson]

20 minutes ago, Resi Pfeffer said:

My gym offers a 20 Euro/month option, bound to a 12 month contract, or 30 Euro/month option where i can cancel every month.
 

Indeed. And Second Life offers an option where you can pay $99 bound to a 12-month contract or an option where you can pay $11.99 per month where you can cancel every month.

Unlike the gyms mentioned, you can cancel a recurring annual membership in Second Life at any time up to the renewal date; on the other hand you can't own mainland during the time period between you announce the end of your membership and the expiration of the pre-paid time period; in fact you can't own mainland at the time you make the announcement.

As I mentioned in another thread, many places of employment require at least two weeks notice when someone is about to leave. During the notice period that person is still an employee and have most or all of the benefits of being employed there; however, there's no way that person will be given a job assignment that would require input after the time when their employment will end. Is that unfair?

Edited October 20, 2019 by Theresa Tennyson

[Alyona Su]

1 hour ago, Resi Pfeffer said:

Same should be said to @Alyona Su. You can laugh as much as you want about. I dont laugh about you, because when im right guessing where you are from, its very clear, that you are used to keep your head down and to go with the flow.

Hardly. It is amazingly presumptuous of you to think so.

Here is where you are misunderstanding or otherwise ignoring the point: Everything you and others describe, with respect to being unfairly "jilted" in it: You refer to legal contracts and how they are handled in first life. This is Second Life and there is no contract. Because there is no contract, there is no requirement, imagined or real, that one must give any prior notice that you wish not to continue the non-contract.

Furthermore, though each year a premium subscription will renew, it is still an upgrade that you must proactively choose to acquire. So when you downgrade you are doing precisely that: downgrading. It is not a "non-renewal" or "cancelation" of services, it is an explicit pro-active choice and action on your part to downgrade.

When I say "it is what it is" and I am laughing, it's not at you or anyone else, but rather at how the beaten dead horse even still exists. I am not going to change your mind and vice-versa. If you genuinely believe it is a legal issue then you need to contact Linden Lab about it and any recompense you believe you are owed, either directly or through a legal representative. This is the one and only way your issue can be resolved to your satisfaction.

Otherwise it is what it is and always will be what it is. And I'm still laughing that you or anyone else is still beating this dead horse.

Edited October 20, 2019 by Alyona Su

[Solar Legion]

....

Edited October 20, 2019 by Solar Legion
Not worth the time/trouble

[Velk Kerang]

On 9/11/2019 at 2:40 PM, Solar Legion said:

They set the system up this way to avoid end users complaining about objects being autoreturned in coalesced form or simply being purged (as sometimes happened/happens with objects) - technical details aside this is the only bit that one ought to be paying attention to.

While many of us may make a host of comparisons between SL "land" and RL, the simple fact of the matter is that Second Life is not Real Life and should not always follow Real Life conventions. How a Landlord is legally expected to handle eviction (and similar) in any region is utterly irrelevant here. In Second Life, all it takes is for you to pick up your objects and be on your merry way whereas in Real Life you have to pack, arrange transport ... You ought to know the drill by now.

Oy .... 

This comment caught my attention. While I agree with what your saying one problem that has been a constant over the years in SL with no actual real rules or guidelines regarding that is it sadly opens the door to shady land owners renting to residents. I've even caught so called reputable land agencies pull some shady stuff. I've actually seen an entire sim set up as a residential neighborhood sold right out from under everyone with out so much as a moments notice and the new owners come in and return everyone's stuff and start kicking and banning people with out so much as a word or explanation. It definitely if nothing else has opened my eyes to seeing peoples ignorant side. lol 🙄

[Alwin Alcott]

1 hour ago, Alyona Su said:

This is Second Life and there is no contract.

the biggest bs ever seen in this discussion.

[Alyona Su]

1 hour ago, Alwin Alcott said:

the biggest bs ever seen in this discussion.

Bahahah! If there's any contract, show me my signature. Or yours, or anyone else's. Go ahead... show me.

A contact is an agreement between two or more parties for the expressed protection of those parties from one another according to that agreement. That part in the Linden Lab Terms of Service that says [paraphrased] "We may deny you service [access] for any or no reason..." makes it explicitly not a contract in any way, shape, or form.

So if anyone believes that Linden Lab owes them anything whatsoever at any time, in any way, then it gives the very clear impression they have an entitlement attitude when they have zero entitlement whatsoever. So if that's "bs" [sic] then whatever rose-colored glasses anyone must be wearing are be pretty thick. Go figure.

Edited October 20, 2019 by Alyona Su

[TheVeryFirst]

1 hour ago, Alyona Su said:

Bahahah! If there's any contract, show me my signature. Or yours, or anyone else's. Go ahead... show me.

A contact is an agreement between two or more parties for the expressed protection of those parties from one another according to that agreement. That part in the Linden Lab Terms of Service that says [paraphrased] "We may deny you service [access] for any or no reason..." makes it explicitly not a contract in any way, shape, or form.

So if anyone believes that Linden Lab owes them anything whatsoever at any time, in any way, then it gives the very clear impression they have an entitlement attitude when they have zero entitlement whatsoever. So if that's "bs" [sic] then whatever rose-colored glasses anyone must be wearing are be pretty thick. Go figure.

 

I bought a car just over a year ago, I never signed one piece of paper, not one, but I have a new car.

 

[Gabriele Graves]

*duplicate post*

Edited October 20, 2019 by Gabriele Graves

[Gabriele Graves]

1 hour ago, Alyona Su said:

Bahahah! If there's any contract, show me my signature. Or yours, or anyone else's. Go ahead... show me.

A contact is an agreement between two or more parties for the expressed protection of those parties from one another according to that agreement. That part in the Linden Lab Terms of Service that says [paraphrased] "We may deny you service [access] for any or no reason..." makes it explicitly not a contract in any way, shape, or form.

I'll just leave this here:

https://www.upcounsel.com/are-online-contracts-legally-binding

[Alyona Su]

46 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

I'll just leave this here:

https://www.upcounsel.com/are-online-contracts-legally-binding

Sure. If any of us were signing any sort of contract. Though we are not signing anything with Linden Lab, as I've stated: show me a signature any of us put down anywhere regarding Linden Lab. No. Such. Thing. Even the link you point to specifically mentions signatures. This is my entire point. So go ahead, plonk me, it doesn't change the fact the Linden Lab doesn't owe any of us anything whatsoever.

Edited October 20, 2019 by Alyona Su

[Lexbot Sinister]

This is why consumer rights are crap in the US.

Instead of working together to make things better, some prefer to beat down on the weak party of business transaction.

What exactly do you gain from it? A gold star from LL?

[Lexbot Sinister]

6 hours ago, Alyona Su said:

Furthermore, though each year a premium subscription will renew, it is still an upgrade that you must proactively choose to acquire. So when you downgrade you are doing precisely that: downgrading. It is not a "non-renewal" or "cancelation" of services, it is an explicit pro-active choice and action on your part to downgrade.

 

No, it's EXACTLY what it is. It's a notice to LL that i will not extend my subscription past it's due date.  It's NOT an agreement to forfeit what i have paid for, in any form or way. That is not how subscription cancellation works anywhere, except in the wonderous world of LL

 

So far, i have seen exactly zero examples of other subscriptions that end the moment you decide not to renew, and cease delivering a service already paid for.

Imagine if you were subscribing to a magazine, and decided not to renew your subscription for another year, giving the magazine a notice in good time. And they decided that you didn't get any magazines anymore, even though you had paid for another couple of months...

It's unheard of.

[Erwin Solo]

Well, I have a few premium accounts, because its the cheapest way to cover my land tier.  My friends tell me that they avoid premium because your account gets locked in the auto-renewal fails.  I prepaid for an extra year before the prices went up.  I'm taking a wait and see attitude.  

[Lindal Kidd]

59 minutes ago, Lexbot Sinister said:

No, it's EXACTLY what it is. It's a notice to LL that i will not extend my subscription past it's due date.  It's NOT an agreement to forfeit what i have paid for, in any form or way. That is not how subscription cancellation works anywhere, except in the wonderous world of LL

 

So far, i have seen exactly zero examples of other subscriptions that end the moment you decide not to renew, and cease delivering a service already paid for.

Imagine if you were subscribing to a magazine, and decided not to renew your subscription for another year, giving the magazine a notice in good time. And they decided that you didn't get any magazines anymore, even though you had paid for another couple of months...

It's unheard of.

I'm not sure why we are arguing about this.  LL's position is clear, and the information is available before you sign up.

If you choose to downgrade, your subscription continues in effect between the time you announce your intention not to renew and the end of your subscription period.  The only benefit you lose is the ability to own Mainland or donate tier to a group.  You MUST divest yourself of any investment in Mainland because otherwise, you would still be holding Mainland when your downgrade went into effect.  Since owning Mainland is a privilege of Premium membership, that would be a no-no.

There's an easy way to avoid losing that benefit though...just wait to downgrade your membership until a day or two before the renewal date.  Problem solved.

[TheVeryFirst]

51 minutes ago, Erwin Solo said:

Well, I have a few premium accounts, because its the cheapest way to cover my land tier.  My friends tell me that they avoid premium because your account gets locked in the auto-renewal fails.  I prepaid for an extra year before the prices went up.  I'm taking a wait and see attitude.  

 

And after you account is locked the only thing you can do is pay to extend your premium agreement, what ever that was. You can’t just call and tell them, downgrade me to basic and unlock my account, I have heard that does not work. So maybe now we know what is going on and why. And its not a technical issue.

 

[Erwin Solo]

19 minutes ago, TheVeryFirst said:

And after you account is locked the only thing you can do is pay to extend your premium agreement, what ever that was. You can’t just call and tell them, downgrade me to basic and unlock my account, I have heard that does not work. So maybe now we know what is going on and why. And its not a technical issue.

Yeah, you have to set an notification on your smartphone calendar to remind you to downgrade a few days before. 

[Lexbot Sinister]

1 hour ago, Lindal Kidd said:

There's an easy way to avoid losing that benefit though...just wait to downgrade your membership until a day or two before the renewal date.  Problem solved.

Or, it could actually work like a normal subscription to a service, but what do i know.

I still don't understand what people get out of defending this consumer-hostile practice. Does it benefit you to belittle people who figure they want to have what they are paying for?

[Mollymews]

1 hour ago, TheVeryFirst said:

 

And after you account is locked the only thing you can do is pay to extend your premium agreement, what ever that was. You can’t just call and tell them, downgrade me to basic and unlock my account, I have heard that does not work. So maybe now we know what is going on and why. And its not a technical issue.

 

you are right, it is not a technical issue per se, its a payment issue

when an account is locked it means that the account owes money to Linden.  Typically for mainland tier.  Mainland tier above the 1024m allowance is not pre-paid. We use it and then get billed for it on our next monthly tier due date

Linden will always unlock an account when the bill is paid

[TheVeryFirst]

21 minutes ago, Mollymews said:

you are right, it is not a technical issue per se, its a payment issue

when an account is locked it means that the account owes money to Linden.  Typically for mainland tier.  Mainland tier above the 1024m allowance is not pre-paid. We use it and then get billed for it on our next monthly tier due date

Linden will always unlock an account when the bill is paid

 

But tier that you have used and owe money on is a completely different subject and nothing to do with the OP’er is talking about.

But in this case LL owes it to the user to fulfill what was agreed on, just like they expect money for tier that has been used, I expect to have the full use of my premium benefits. Kind of one sided how that works.

 

[Mollymews]

19 minutes ago, TheVeryFirst said:

 

But tier that you have used and owe money on is a completely different subject and nothing to do with the OP’er is talking about.

But in this case LL owes it to the user to fulfill what was agreed on, just like they expect money for tier that has been used, I expect to have the full use of my premium benefits. Kind of one sided how that works.

 

you introduced the topic of locked accounts 😺

Linden do provide a method to reverse a downgrade, file a support ticket.  We can reclaim and use our tier allowance. So in this sense is not like Linden are stealing anything from us when we downgrade early, and the expectation that we can have full use of our premium benefits is met

as I mentioned earlier I think having to file a support ticket to do this could be improved. Stick a button on the page: "Cancel Pending Downgrade"

 

ps edit add:  I don't see why a company would make it more difficult than it needs to be, to have a customer change their mind, and put themselves more easily into a situation where the customer could continue to give money to the company 

Edited October 20, 2019 by Mollymews