Being premium without premium benefits?

[Erwin Solo]

The best feature of Premium is the Premium sandboxes. 

[Gabriele Graves]

10 hours ago, Alyona Su said:

Sure. If any of us were signing any sort of contract. Though we are not signing anything with Linden Lab, as I've stated: show me a signature any of us put down anywhere regarding Linden Lab. No. Such. Thing. Even the link you point to specifically mentions signatures. This is my entire point. So go ahead, plonk me, it doesn't change the fact the Linden Lab doesn't owe any of us anything whatsoever.

You didn't read the section called "Electronic Contracts and Signatures" where it listed: Clicking the "I Agree" button.

I'm not plonking anyone but you made a very bold statement and this contradicts that.

It will benefit you to know this.  You don't need an actual signature, you clicked "I Agree".  That is a contract.
That is enough for the jurisdiction where LL operates.

Edited October 21, 2019 by Gabriele Graves

[Gabriele Graves]

7 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said:

I'm not sure why we are arguing about this.  LL's position is clear, and the information is available before you sign up.

Isn't it a discussion?  Are we not allowed to debate the rights and wrongs of LL's approach?  I don't see anyone saying that they expect LL to change their mind.

[Resi Pfeffer]

10 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said:

There's an easy way to avoid losing that benefit though...just wait to downgrade your membership until a day or two before the renewal date.  Problem solved.

Even if its just 1-3 days, its not right. There is a very clear definition of what a month, a quarter or a year is. 

3 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said:

I'm not plonking anyone but you made a very bold statement and this contradicts that.

Being bold and having a paperthin skin at the same time is what makes her lovely personality. Nothing new, actually. ^^

Alright. back to topic.
I think its just a matter of the personal mindset. Some people ask why things are the way they are, others dont.
Even in the "customer rights paradise" germany we have issues. As some of you may know, we have to pay around 18 Euro/month for the german state-run television.
No matter if one switches to that tv channels at all, no matter if one has a TV or not, no matter if one has even power or not - every household has to pay. The one and only way to bail out is to loose the job in order to become poor, or to die.
While i tried to disturb their flow by paying too much, to be able to ask my money back, or just denied paying and sending letters to the district court, finally ended up being threatened to get a visit from the bailiff, all my workmates or friend just dont seem to care. They are just shrugging, telling me "it was always that way, what can i do against?" And they keep paying, like the sheep voluntarily going to its slaughter.

[Resi Pfeffer]

19 hours ago, Alyona Su said:

If you genuinely believe it is a legal issue then you need to contact Linden Lab about it and any recompense you believe you are owed, either directly or through a legal representative. This is the one and only way your issue can be resolved to your satisfaction.

Maybe you didnt notice, but i openend already a ticket and also posted the response into this thread. You just need to scroll upwards.
And once again, i dont need anything to be resolved. I never was premium and after testing it i know even better its nothing i really need.
Its just about principles. Thats why we talk about.

Edited October 21, 2019 by Resi Pfeffer

[Resi Pfeffer]

17 hours ago, Alyona Su said:

Bahahah! If there's any contract, show me my signature. Or yours, or anyone else's. Go ahead... show me.

Last week i ordered a stove online for my terrace. I just had to click a few times. No pencil involved at all. But dont worry, there is no dark magic involved, just IT,  rules and laws.

Edited October 21, 2019 by Resi Pfeffer

[Alyona Su]

23 hours ago, Alyona Su said:

If you genuinely believe it is a legal issue then you need to contact Linden Lab about it and any recompense you believe you are owed, either directly or through a legal representative. This is the one and only way your issue can be resolved to your satisfaction.

 

8 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said:

You didn't read the section called "Electronic Contracts and Signatures" where it listed: Clicking the "I Agree" button.

I'm not plonking anyone but you made a very bold statement and this contradicts that.

It will benefit you to know this.  You don't need an actual signature, you clicked "I Agree".  That is a contract.
That is enough for the jurisdiction where LL operates.

I refer to what I've already said above. To which, no one has done, yet, because if they have and they won the case, by law that win must apply to everyone. ~shrugs~

[Alyona Su]

8 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said:

Isn't it a discussion?  Are we not allowed to debate the rights and wrongs of LL's approach?  I don't see anyone saying that they expect LL to change their mind.

I concur with this. Though, everyone is saying the same thing over and over.

4 hours ago, Resi Pfeffer said:

Being bold and having a paperthin skin at the same time is what makes her lovely personality. Nothing new, actually. ^^

Importantly, you "raise your voice when you should reinforce your argument". If all you can do is toss labels around, it does not lend value to any credibility you may have. For example, it diminishes one of the best statements you've made on this subject, which is:

4 hours ago, Resi Pfeffer said:

I think its just a matter of the personal mindset. Some people ask why things are the way they are, others dont.

This is the main issue at hand. I stand by every statement I've made in this discussion, albeit from a legal standpoint in the United States; other countries have different legal standpoints. Though Linden Lab is a United States company, so United States laws are what apply. Thus, I refer again to my statements above with regard to getting oneself legal representation. All it takes is an attorney to send a letter asking questions.

As for "paper thin" [sic] skin, go ahead and throw anything you've got at me. I generally laugh that stuff off, so feel free to throw your best shots.

Edited October 21, 2019 by Alyona Su

[Alyona Su]

4 hours ago, Resi Pfeffer said:

Last week i ordered a stove online for my terrace. I just had to click a few times. No pencil involved at all. But dont worry, there is no dark magic involved, just IT,  rules and laws.

A stove is a product, not a service. A Warranty is a promise, not a contract. Shipping is a service, not a subscription. Though your point is well-made.

[Resi Pfeffer]

1 minute ago, Alyona Su said:

Personal attack are a no-no, but more importantly, you "raise your voice when you should reinforce your argument". If all you can do is toss labels around, it does not lend value to any credibility you may have. It diminishes the best statement you've made on this subject, which is:

Want me to remember you, how you raised your voice, when the topic about raindance or the ingenious chinese elevator/escalator craftsmanship came up?

6 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

This is the main issue at hand. I stand by every statement I've made in this discussion, albeit from a legal standpoint in the United States; other countries have different legal standpoints. Though Linden Lab is a United States company, so United States laws are what apply. Thus, I refer again to my statements above with regard to getting oneself legal representation. All it takes is an attorney to send a letter asking questions.

No one ever accused you to turn with the wind. You stand like a rock in turbulent waters, indeed. And you may be right about the fact, its legal, what LL does. 
But that doesnt change the fact, that some people find it very questionable.

[Resi Pfeffer]

Just now, Alyona Su said:

A stove is a product, not a service.

There are online portals, where i can order cleaning women... or other services, like having the roof fixed.

Quote

A Warranty is a promise, not a contract.

Maybe thats not the case in your country. In other parts of the world its part of the contract and the law forces the company to give at least 1 years of warranty.

Quote

Shipping is a service, not a subscription.

I dont know where to put that

[Resi Pfeffer]

19 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

As for "paper thin" [sic] skin, go ahead and throw anything you've got at me. I generally laugh that stuff off, so feel free to throw your best shots.

Not necessary, as i still remember your reaction very very well.

[Alyona Su]

17 minutes ago, Resi Pfeffer said:

Want me to remember you, how you raised your voice, when the topic about raindance or the ingenious chinese elevator/escalator craftsmanship came up?

It's not the first time that my, admittedly obscure, attempts at humor was taken seriously. Sometimes, though not the example you describe, words hurt. I choose not to reply to those. Sometimes truth hurts, I will admit when I am wrong, as painful as doing that can be, but I will do it. I also will apologize when it is warranted. On grounds where I am confident, I will assert my purview, though that purview can be changed with convincing evidence.

In the case of my position on the subject in this thread, I will stand like a rock because I know for a fact I am in the right on it. However, I do admit I could have and should have been more clear that my stance is based on U.S. law and may not be a "global" fact in that regard. Because Linden Lab is a U.S. company, those laws apply, though I think it also is a (perhaps bad) habit that most of us make our comments in all forums from our own local experience and often forget this is a world-wide stage.

One area where I may be hypocrite in this regard is how I often harp on Viewer tips given where the tip only applies to one viewer and no others; I will call them out for not explaining that their tip only applies to the one. My hypocrisy falls into that genre where, even in this thread, I am not making it clear that my comments are based on U.S. law, and others around the world may be taking my statements as meaning to be a global thing, where it's surely not.

For that I do apologize. I know I can do better at the clarity of my statements and position on things.

Edited October 21, 2019 by Alyona Su

[Resi Pfeffer]

1 hour ago, Alyona Su said:

It's not the first time that my, admittedly obscure, attempts at humor was taken seriously. Sometimes, though not the example you describe, words hurt. I choose not to reply to those. Sometimes truth hurts, I will admit when I am wrong, as painful as doing that can be, but I will do it. I also will apologize when it is warranted. On grounds where I am confident, I will assert my purview, though that purview can be changed with convincing evidence.

Right, as we have nothing else than these written letters, its not that easy to interprete it always the right way. Maybe you are bad in expressing your humour, and maybe im even worse to get it. Best constellation to derail ^^

Quote

In the case of my position on the subject in this thread, I will stand like a rock because I know for a fact I am in the right on it. However, I do admit I could have and should have been more clear that my stance is based on U.S. law and may not be a "global" fact in that regard. Because Linden Lab is a U.S. company, those laws apply, though I think it also is a (perhaps bad) habit that most of us make our comments in all forums from our own local experience and often forget this is a world-wide stage.

I assume we all do know that LL TOS are conform with the US law. But whats the bad thing about comparing it to our very own local experience? Is it bad to whish, my own local experience would apply for the whole world,  long term?
Of course you may shake your head about me and the others, because you probably never would have thought about if the downgrade procedure is fair (or however you want to call it).
But for "us" it just feels wrong. Thats why we write tickets to LL, and fight discuss this topic with people like you.

Im pretty sure, im not able to fight and win against Goliath, but giving him a stitch is what i can do at least.

[Alyona Su]

45 minutes ago, Resi Pfeffer said:

Right, as we have nothing else than these written letters, its not that easy to interprete it always the right way. Maybe you are bad in expressing your humour, and maybe im even worse to get it. Best constellation to derail ^^

I assume we all do know that LL TOS are conform with the US law. But whats the bad thing about comparing it to our very own local experience? Is it bad to whish, my own local experience would apply for the whole world,  long term?
Of course you may shake your head about me and the others, because you probably never would have thought about if the downgrade procedure is fair (or however you want to call it).
But for "us" it just feels wrong. Thats why we write tickets to LL, and fight discuss this topic with people like you.

Im pretty sure, im not able to fight and win against Goliath, but giving him a stitch is what i can do at least.

I will iterate that I never said it was fair or right, only what it actually is. My retorts were, are, and will be toward those who proclaim any sort of "rights" with regard to the subject of this thread, my intention is on edification toward that claim, though some take it as some sort of offensive gesture on my part, that's their issue. Sometimes truth hurts. How we deal with any hurt is on each of us to live with. If it makes people feel better to scream out loud, even with diatribe that is not only inaccurate, but blatantly false, then let them scream. Because it is a public forum, my comments are intended to serve other readers in general. This is how debate and tit-for-tat goes, right?

This is what I say, simply: it is what it is until it isn't.