Being premium without premium benefits?

[Resi Pfeffer]

I recently downgraded from premium to basic and already wondered about the fact i had to abandon my Linden home, before i was able to send the downgrade request.
As i decided to pay quarterly back then, im still premium until the end of november. But if enter my profile and try to grab any Linden home, i get rejected and told, i need to add billing information. 
But why? Since years im using Paypal to get money into SL. Whats missing?

My point is not not have a Linden Home or other benefits at all, but i just wonder, what happens to someone deciding to go for a one year membership, and after 2 weeks maybe deciding to downgrade back to basic. Paying 99 USD just for 2 weeks of premium membership?

What did i get wrong?

[Alwin Alcott]

49 minutes ago, Resi Pfeffer said:

What did i get wrong?

you downgraded too early    .. this is how LL handles downgrading members all the time
I would advise to create a ticket and undo the cancellation. "i'm so sad i dont want to downgrade...."    ( and re cancel one day before your subscription expires - but don't tell that yet)

( when based in europe they would have a serious problem doing this)

[Rolig Loon]

Yes, there's a logical contradiction in the process.  Your Premium membership is prepaid, so you have all the benefits of being Premium until the end of the period that you paid for.  However ... if you want to downgrade, you have to first divest yourself of any lands that you own in the Mainland estate.  So, you do that and your downgrade is "Pending..."  You can still use Premium sandboxes and get your weekly stipend.  If you try to buy land again, though, you can't.  You can still be a Premium member, but because you are "Pending downgrade",  you have voluntarily given up that Premium benefit.  The only way to resolve the contradiction is to do as Alwin suggests: revoke your downgrade and wait until near the end of your Premium period to do it.

[Resi Pfeffer]

57 minutes ago, Rolig Loon said:

The only way to resolve the contradiction is to do as Alwin suggests: revoke your downgrade and wait until near the end of your Premium period to do it.

Im fine with having no linden home anyway. Going premium was just something new i wanted to try after 12 years being basic.
just wondered why it is that way in general. For me its some kind of a weird business practice. 

1 hour ago, Alwin Alcott said:

when based in europe they would have a serious problem doing this

Exactly. Its like taking away the plate from someone at an all you can eat buffet, just because he said, he wont come back anymore.
Sansar,  still no mobile client, and now this. Linden Labs is always good for a surprise and a laughter.

Edited September 10, 2019 by Resi Pfeffer

[LittleMe Jewell]

Note that you will still get your weekly stipend and all other Premium benefits until the end of the pre-paid Premium period - you just can't have the land part.  I assume that part is simply because of how the back end coding was done.

[Resi Pfeffer]

4 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

because of how the back end coding was done.

You could be right. But if that should be LLs excuse, its a very bad one. The coder probably didnt do, what came into his mind the day that function was written. Someone, who was paid way better than him, told him what to do.

Imagine terminating the lease of your appartment. In germany is mostly 3 months... And as soon as the landlord gets the letter, he cuts of the electricity, if he would act like LL.
But hey, at least i still have the key to open the door and i have running cold water.

The more i think about, the more my blood boils, even though i dont even care about a linden home or the other benefits. Alwin was quite right. In europe you will never experience something like this, and if, then it will be stopped pretty fast. Or LL would be forced to add a disclaimer like "Downgrading will take away your Linden Home, (maybe the main reason for some people to become premium) no matter how much premium time is left"

But as it seems, im the only who gets bothered by that business practice. So its all fine.

Edited September 11, 2019 by Resi Pfeffer
typos

[Alwin Alcott]

1 hour ago, Resi Pfeffer said:

But as it seems, im the only who gets bothered by that business practice. So its all fine.

you'r not in this, a while ago there was a discussion where this was the subject .. of course the americans against the europeans ...as often in such differences for consumers rights.

[Resi Pfeffer]

17 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

of course the americans against the europeans ...as often in such differences for consumers rights.

Once i negiotiated with a US located CSR because i missed a special offer about a mocap software by one day. After the exchange of 3 mails he was willing to grant me the discount anyway and i finally managed to click on the "buy" button. Just to find out, the tax was not included. 😮
Despite the fact it was about much more money, this didnt hurt as much as the loss of the Linden Home i dont even want or need. Its just about principles, i guess.

[Love Zhaoying]

2 hours ago, Resi Pfeffer said:

loss

Is it a loss if you never had it?

[Resi Pfeffer]

53 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Is it a loss if you never had it?

Its a loss for everyone who paid for a virtual piece of land and even more for someone who felt being at home between those pixel walls.

[Alyona Su]

The way land works is that an actual manual interaction must happen for any change in it, including ownership. Based on my experience owning estates and other land over many years, land properties cannot be changed autonomously via scripts or code, so there is no way to make land changes based on a timer, such as when your premium subscription actually expires. This is why you must abandon or sell any land you own whatsoever before you can downgrade your subscription; there is no way for the system to do it automatically.

Other than this, there also would be the possibility of your subscription ending and all (mixed copy/no-copy) stuff is all returned in one big lump of coalesced object that you'll have to go to a sandbox to sort out and other aspects and so on.

Edited September 11, 2019 by Alyona Su

[Resi Pfeffer]

49 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

The way land works is that an actual manual interaction must happen for any change in it, including ownership...
...This is why you must abandon or sell any land you own whatsoever before you can downgrade your subscription; there is no way for the system to do it automatically.

When i rent a parcel on a private region or a homestead, my name is entered in the parcel details from the second on im paying the fee. And it will be mine and will be accessible for me until the lease time is over. Until the very last second.

Whats the big difference in renting a parcel on mainland or a linden home, compared to renting a parcel at at a private region or a homestead?
After having the downgrade request being sent, LL knows my premium will expire at day X. Whats so difficult about kicking me out on day X? It already works on private regions.

I bet my left butt cheek, its that way because someone wants it to be that way, and not because its technically difficult, or because someone has to press a button manually. Guys, its 2019 and IT is not a new thing anymore!  

Edited September 11, 2019 by Resi Pfeffer
typo

[Alyona Su]

11 minutes ago, Resi Pfeffer said:

Whats the big difference in owning a parcel on mainland or a linden home, compared to renting a parcel at at a private region or a homestead?

The difference is that the estate owners (private regions) always owns the entire region; when you "buy" land on a private estates, that "ownership" is like a temp-rezz attachment - it's not really there. You don't actually own that parcel, it's more like a "super-manager" access, true ownership never changes. This is the reason it does not require a premium subscription: you are not actually purchasing land from Linden Lab, you're paying another user to "sub-let" a portion of his land to you

Estates owners have amazing flexibility and tools they can apply to their land that "regular" land owners would drool over if they ever see them. It is just this side of total God-mode. For example: One of the right-click land option on a parcel you think you "own" is "Reclaim Land" - and POOF! You don't own it any more. 

Edited September 11, 2019 by Alyona Su

[Rolig Loon]

13 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

The difference is that the estate owners (private regions) always owns the entire region; when you "buy" land on a private estates, that "ownership" is like a temp-rezz attachment - it's not really there. You don't actually own that parcel, it's more like a "super-manager" access, true ownership never changes. This is the reason it does not require a premium subscription: you are not actually purchasing land from Linden Lab, you're paying another user to "sub-let" a portion of his land to you

To follow up that point ... the Mainland estate is huge and has thousands of resident-owned parcels on thousands of regions.  As a scripter, I get nervous goosebumps thinking about all the things that could go wrong if LL let an automated system automatically toss residents off of their land the second that their Premium membership downgrades to Basic. The risks are much lower if they tell land owners that it's their responsibility to abandon land before they downgrade.

[Resi Pfeffer]

48 minutes ago, Rolig Loon said:

To follow up that point ... the Mainland estate is huge and has thousands of resident-owned parcels on thousands of regions.  As a scripter, I get nervous goosebumps thinking about all the things that could go wrong if LL let an automated system automatically toss residents off of their land the second that their Premium membership downgrades to Basic. The risks are much lower if they tell land owners that it's their responsibility to abandon land before they downgrade.

When i decide to abandon my LH prior to the downgrade, i get my items sent back immediately. There is an automatism already.
If im triggering that automatism or a timer (premium ends on day X) makes no difference at all from a technical perspective.

Edited September 11, 2019 by Resi Pfeffer

[Alyona Su]

1 hour ago, Resi Pfeffer said:

makes no difference at all from a technical perspective.

Actually, there is a massively huge difference. By your general idea of no technical difference of how such a thing works, then why does your car not just "go" after starting it up? You always have to manually put it into gear first. Should it automatically do that for you if you're looking through the windshield? What about if you turn your head to reverse, seems to me the car should just switch gears that way. Technical perspectives are a thing, actually.

I suggest you perform an experiment to see for yourself: put in a support ticket and complain that you must abandon land that you own before downgrading to basic, even though you still have time remaining on your subscription and that the "automatic expiration timer" that does this is not functioning. I'm sure inquiring minds all over the forums would like to know the answer you receive.

[Solar Legion]

They set the system up this way to avoid end users complaining about objects being autoreturned in coalesced form or simply being purged (as sometimes happened/happens with objects) - technical details aside this is the only bit that one ought to be paying attention to.

While many of us may make a host of comparisons between SL "land" and RL, the simple fact of the matter is that Second Life is not Real Life and should not always follow Real Life conventions. How a Landlord is legally expected to handle eviction (and similar) in any region is utterly irrelevant here. In Second Life, all it takes is for you to pick up your objects and be on your merry way whereas in Real Life you have to pack, arrange transport ... You ought to know the drill by now.

Oy .... 

[MoiraKathleen]

If it was only a case of a Linden Home and the 175 or 351 LI's worth of items that suddenly got returned on the day after the premium membership expired,  being able to keep using the land until the actual expiration date might not seem like a bad idea.  However, it's not just about a Linden Home, but also any mainland that the account owns directly (which could be a small parcel, or multiple regions with paying tenants involved, or it could be an account that donates tier to a group which owns group-owned mainland).  When you bring these other situations into the picture, the use cases multiply and it no longer remains a simple, single "just do this" type of response on expiration. 

I really believe that having the account holder explicitly abandon and/or sell their mainland and/or LH home (and withdraw any donated tier) prior to being able to downgrade their account is the best solution.  If a person is going to argue that they would remember to pick up all their things right before the expiration date, then I would say that they would also be able to remember when the expiration date is and not downgrade their account until that time.  I think that most people who downgrade ahead of time are doing so because they want to make sure they won't forget before it auto-renews.

It's simple to cancel the pending downgrade if one changes their mind.  I've done that on an alt before and was able to do it via live chat, so the account was fully reinstated  during the live chat exchange.  

 

[LittleMe Jewell]

For the last alt that I wanted to downgrade, I simply set myself a calendar reminder for the day before the Premium renewal.  That way, I kept my land benefit until the very end.

[Alwin Alcott]

3 hours ago, moirakathleen said:

It's simple to cancel the pending downgrade if one changes their mind.

this isn't simple and clear for some people, it's a question that's asked here (not every day, but quite often compared to other issues).

The coding for auto release land at the actual downgrade has to many variables to build in the total, but giving a choice to change your premium/cancelation to a new level of subscription could be something to have a look at.

Edited September 12, 2019 by Alwin Alcott

[Resi Pfeffer]

16 hours ago, Alyona Su said:

I suggest you perform an experiment to see for yourself: put in a support ticket and complain that you must abandon land that you own before downgrading to basic, even though you still have time remaining on your subscription and that the "automatic expiration timer" that does this is not functioning. I'm sure inquiring minds all over the forums would like to know the answer you receive.

Sounds not like a bad idea. Will keep you informed. *Update: Ticket sent*

15 hours ago, Solar Legion said:

They set the system up this way to avoid end users complaining about objects being autoreturned

Every sandbox sends back my items after a preset amount of time. Every landlord will do the same after the lease time turned to zero. I bet some of them will try to contact the tennant before the purge and a lot of payment boxes send a reminder, but if nothing helps, items will be sent back.

7 hours ago, moirakathleen said:

If it was only a case of a Linden Home and the 175 or 351 LI's worth of items that suddenly got returned on the day after the premium membership expired,  being able to keep using the land until the actual expiration date might not seem like a bad idea.  However, it's not just about a Linden Home, but also any mainland that the account owns directly (which could be a small parcel, or multiple regions with paying tenants involved, or it could be an account that donates tier to a group which owns group-owned mainland).  When you bring these other situations into the picture, the use cases multiply and it no longer remains a simple, single "just do this" type of response on expiration. 

Thats true and that will complicate things a lot. But, what if the landlord is just a jerk, abandoning his mainland or private region and not even telling his tennants about? I dont know the answer, but thats what also sounds like it would cause some trouble for the tennants.

7 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

For the last alt that I wanted to downgrade, I simply set myself a calendar reminder for the day before the Premium renewal.  That way, I kept my land benefit until the very end.

Where i live its not unlikely to write the termination letter right after the contract is signed. It was mainly about cellphone contracts years ago, when prices changed every single day and when new cellphones really had new functions and not just facelifts.
Or its still about energy contracts. The prices just know the direction towards the sky, but a lot of providers fight for the customers. So there are really bad and really good offers every single year. No one ever went out of energy just because of the early termination announcement. 

For a lot of people and several reasons reminders dont work at all. Thats why a lot of people get a letter like "We are happy you will be still with us" what means actually "Hey silly, you didnt terminate the contract despite the fact you knew, it would auto renew after 12 months, and of course the former conditions will not be the same anymore." 
I know, that doesnt relate to SL at all, but this is why someone want to terminate early.

Edited September 12, 2019 by Resi Pfeffer
added some lines to Littlemes answer

[Solar Legion]

Oh for an eye roll reaction ...

Honestly right now it seems more like you simply refuse to understand as opposed to seeking to understand. How a sandbox is run is irrelevant. How other users run their rental setups ... is irrelevant. Just as irrelevant as how things are handled with Real Life apartment or house rentals anywhere.

[LittleMe Jewell]

On 9/12/2019 at 12:01 AM, Resi Pfeffer said:

For a lot of people and several reasons reminders dont work at all. Thats why a lot of people get a letter like "We are happy you will be still with us" what means actually "Hey silly, you didnt terminate the contract despite the fact you knew, it would auto renew after 12 months, and of course the former conditions will not be the same anymore." 
I know, that doesnt relate to SL at all, but this is why someone want to terminate early.

It would be nice if LL at least sent a renewal reminder out ahead of time like my anti-virus and a few other things do.  Something like 'You automatic renewal will bill on such-and-such-date.  If you want to change anything, please visit your account page at blah-blah-web-address'.   

I have one automated renewal that sends me a notice one month before billing and then again one week before billing.  I know why companies don't -- They really don't want to remind you that you could cancel, but it would still be more customer friendly if they did.

Edited September 13, 2019 by LittleMe Jewell
missing word

[MoiraKathleen]

4 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

It would be nice if LL at least sent a renewal reminder out ahead of time like my anti-virus and a few other things do.  Something like 'You automatic renewal will bill on such-and-such-date.  If you want to change anything, please visit your account page at blah-blah-web-address'.  

I agree that would be useful.

[Resi Pfeffer]

15 hours ago, Solar Legion said:

Oh for an eye roll reaction ...

Honestly right now it seems more like you simply refuse to understand as opposed to seeking to understand. How a sandbox is run is irrelevant. How other users run their rental setups ... is irrelevant. Just as irrelevant as how things are handled with Real Life apartment or house rentals anywhere.

There is nothing i could refuse, even if i was stubborn, what i am indeed, sometimes... because until now we just assumed why things are the way they are. No Linden commented on this and the ticket i sent yesterday is not answered yet.

I dont get, why it appears to you to be irrelevant in general. I was questioning the sense and customer friendliness of the issue we talk about.
And one thing probably not even you can deny. Revoking one of the services before the end of the the contract is something more or less negative for us as customers.
OK, let me guess your next post