I am leaving SL, for good.

[Akane Nacht]

I dunno.. I still feel a bit oppressed. I'll feel better if someone buys me a houseboat... 😇

[Luna Bliss]

27 minutes ago, Rosaline Spiritor said:

I'm sorry, but as a woman, I don't feel oppressed. I have been given the same opportunities as men. I have made more money than my male co-workers in the same position as me. I have been in positions where I outranked men in the workplace. I have the right to vote. I have the right to make decisions for myself. I'm not oppressed at all. I am not controlled by a man. 

That's good for you, but you do not represent all women.
I too, can't say I personally experience oppression as a woman. But I look to others experience -- I research and pay attention to those citing domination by men. One of my majors was actually Women's Studies in college and I consider myself a pussyhat wearing feminist, though not hating men at all (as you stereotyped feminists).

While women are currently less oppressed in Western societies, throughout the world women still encounter severe control by men in various societies. Even in the U.S. most women still make less than men for the same amount of work, more women are killed by men than the opposite, and the best phrase one can come up with when insulting a man is to say he's "like a woman".
Witness the abortion issue -- men trying to control women's bodies.
Even my own brother, who said he would not fly with a woman pilot because women are too "emotional" and it would not be safe.
I could provide so many more examples -- the misogyny hasn't disappeared -- this attitude that women are less than men and the prejudice that follows.

The man who would be king has not gone away. He may be able to get away with less now, but he's still there.

[Beth Macbain]

24 minutes ago, Rosaline Spiritor said:

I'm sorry, but as a woman, I don't feel oppressed. I have been given the same opportunities as men. I have made more money than my male co-workers in the same position as me. I have been in positions where I outranked men in the workplace. I have the right to vote. I have the right to make decisions for myself. I'm not oppressed at all. I am not controlled by a man. 

You know what? I don't feel repressed, either. That doesn't change the fact that many, many, many women on this planet ARE oppressed and in the not-so-distant past, all were and there is a wave of... er, how to say this without getting political... well, white men in the US who would love to see women get back in the kitchens where they belong.

I consider myself a second wave feminist (I missed the bra burning) but when I look back over my fifty years, I can certainly see how things have changed for women just in my own personal timeline. It's my strictly personal belief that a lot of third wave feminists are making mountains out of certain mole hills when there are still plenty of actual mountains to conquer, but I'm also not going to just sit with my thumb up my butt while men make sweeping generalizations about women being gold diggers. I work very hard to support myself independently and won't have my worth diminished by any man without pointing out the idiocy in his "jokes".  

And, no, I don't make those same generalizations or jokes about male stereotypes. 

[Beth Macbain]

And you know there is a problem that needs to be fixed when @Luna Bliss and I are agreeing on something! 😅😜😅😜😅

[Madelaine McMasters]

11 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

39 minutes ago, Rosaline Spiritor said:

I'm sorry, but as a woman, I don't feel oppressed. I have been given the same opportunities as men. I have made more money than my male co-workers in the same position as me. I have been in positions where I outranked men in the workplace. I have the right to vote. I have the right to make decisions for myself. I'm not oppressed at all. I am not controlled by a man. 

That's good for you, but you do not represent all women.
I too, can't say I personally experience oppression as a woman. But I look to others experience -- I research and pay attention to those citing domination by men. One of my majors was actually Women's Studies in college and I consider myself a pussyhat wearing feminist, though not hating men at all (as you stereotyped feminists).

While women are currently less oppressed in Western societies, throughout the world women still encounter severe control by men in various societies. Even in the U.S. most women still make less than men for the same amount of work, more women are killed by men than the opposite, and the best phrase one can come up with when insulting a man is to say he's "like a woman".
Witness the abortion issue -- men trying to control women's bodies.
Even my own brother, who said he would not fly with a woman pilot because women are too "emotional" and it would not be safe.
I could provide so many more examples -- the misogyny hasn't disappeared -- this attitude that women are less than men and the prejudice that follows.

The man who would be king has not gone away. He may be able to get away with less now, but he's still there.

Like the two of you (ETA: three, now that Beth has chimed in), I've never felt oppressed. But I also don't extrapolate my personal experience. I am but an drop in the sea of Luna's observations.

Luna, I was once a pilot, and I might actually agree with your brother about flying with me (again, I'm not going to extrapolate). But that's not because I'm emotional, it's because I've always dreamed of barnstorming and it seemed just a matter of time before I succumbed to the temptation. I don't like cleaning up vomit.

Edited June 8, 2019 by Madelaine McMasters

[Madelaine McMasters]

3 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

And you know there is a problem that needs to be fixed when @Luna Bliss and I are agreeing on something! 😅😜😅😜😅

...sets you both on fire.

[Beth Macbain]

5 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

...sets you both on fire.

Awwww... I love you, too!

[Sylvia Tamalyn]

49 minutes ago, Rosaline Spiritor said:

I'm sorry, but as a woman, I don't feel oppressed. I have been given the same opportunities as men. I have made more money than my male co-workers in the same position as me. I have been in positions where I outranked men in the workplace. I have the right to vote. I have the right to make decisions for myself. I'm not oppressed at all. I am not controlled by a man. 

You are fortunate. 

Just because something doesn't happen to YOU, does not mean it doesn't happen at all. 

[Selene Gregoire]

47 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Like the two of you (ETA: three, now that Beth has chimed in), I've never felt oppressed. But I also don't extrapolate my personal experience. I am but an drop in the sea of Luna's observations.

Luna, I was once a pilot, and I might actually agree with your brother about flying with me (again, I'm not going to extrapolate). But that's not because I'm emotional, it's because I've always dreamed of barnstorming and it seemed just a matter of time before I succumbed to the temptation. I don't like cleaning up vomit.

You and my dad would have loved flying together.

[Akane Nacht]

Thanks Erwin  unexpected but very posh

 

[Selene Gregoire]

33 minutes ago, Sylvia Tamalyn said:

You are fortunate. 

Just because something doesn't happen to YOU, does not mean it doesn't happen at all. 

I started to say something about existing while being a non white female but I already know it won't make even a small dent, much less a tiny scratch, in that armor plated hide. 

[Selene Gregoire]

3 minutes ago, Akane Nacht said:

Thanks Erwin  unexpected but very posh

 

"Of Treve" 

That explains a lot.

[Sylvia Tamalyn]

1 minute ago, Selene Gregoire said:

I started to say something about existing while being a non white female but I already know it won't make even a small dent, much less a tiny scratch, in that armor plated hide. 

Yeah, I thought about bringing up privilege, but it seems pointless.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

On 6/8/2019 at 11:19 AM, Rosaline Spiritor said:

I'm sorry, but as a woman, I don't feel oppressed. I have been given the same opportunities as men. I have made more money than my male co-workers in the same position as me. I have been in positions where I outranked men in the workplace. I have the right to vote. I have the right to make decisions for myself. I'm not oppressed at all. I am not controlled by a man. 

Rosaline, I too have not been personally oppressed. The important men in my life -- from my father, and extending to lovers, friends, and partners in my adult years -- have all been loving, supportive, and fair-minded. My father's support, encouragement, and work to educate is one of the reasons I became a feminist.

Feminism isn't really actually so much about the personal, individual case -- whether "Man A" is a misogynist, or "Man B" an abuser. It's about systemic oppression, the things built into our legal and political systems, our cultural and social attitudes, that cage everyone into culturally determined roles, and that are ultimately the main reason why "Man A" won't hire a woman, and "Man B" beats his girlfriend.

And those who are oppressed by the system include men: the young boy who has been told he should be ashamed of himself for crying or feeling "weak" or "running like a girl," as well as the adult male who has been conditioned by society to be "macho" and, sometimes, abusive to women. That's what the concept of "patriarchy" means: not merely that men get to oppress women, but that we are all relentlessly regimented and oppressed by an artificial definition of "what it means" to be a "man" or a "woman."

In practice, of course, patriarchy has meant that women have been excluded from power. Whatever your own experience (and I am honestly and sincerely delighted that you have never felt oppressed), we know, from statistics, that you are (to cite only a few instances) more likely to be murdered by your partner if you are a woman, less likely to be promoted in your career, have less control over your own reproductive health, are less likely to be paid as much as a man doing the corresponding same work, less likely to be elected to office, etc. etc. etc.  These aren't anecdotal: they aren't based on my experience, or your experience, or that of my next door neighbour: we know these things statistically.

[REDACTED] It's because it is vitally important to challenge the attitudes he articulates and represents that are part of the founding myths of systemic oppression and patriarchy. This is the point that both Beth and Luna make above.

[REDACTED] And, so long as that system, however benign it may personally seem to me, or you, or Maddy, or Beth, or Luna, continues to undercut efforts to achieve full equality and justice, I'm going to keep on chopping away at it whenever I see it rear its ugly head.

Edited June 16, 2019 by Jagix Linden
Removed personal call outs

[Madelaine McMasters]

6 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

You and my dad would have loved flying together.

This was one joy I wasn't able to share with Dad. He was a fighter pilot in WWII and was certainly proud when I got my license and could finally take him up. On our first and only flight together, I offered him the wheel. He demurred. Though we'd both dreamed of soaring with the birds as children, his dream crashed to the ground in the South Pacific. The financial reality of flying set in shortly thereafter. I could fly or continue engineering school.

Wisdom has a price.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

12 minutes ago, Akane Nacht said:

Thanks Erwin  unexpected but very posh

 

Oh look. Erwin is buying a woman presents . . .

(And will presumably now be able to complain about it somewhere else later on.)

[Selene Gregoire]

7 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

This was one joy I wasn't able to share with Dad. He was a fighter pilot in WWII and was certainly proud when I got my license and could finally take him up. On our first and only flight together, I offered him the wheel. He demurred. Though we'd both dreamed of soaring with the birds as children, his dream crashed to the ground in the South Pacific. The financial reality of flying set in shortly thereafter. I could fly or continue engineering school.

Wisdom has a price.

My dad made the same choice. That's why he didn't get the Aeronca until he was in his late 50s early 60s. 

[Amina Sopwith]

I've been asked in job interviews whether I plan to have any/any more children. 

I've been harassed, followed, groped and screamed at in the street and on public transport on more occasions than I can count...literally, I lost count somewhere around the age of 17. It started when I was still in school uniform. I won't repeat the worst of what I've heard but let's just say, there are numerous men out there who want to do things to me that I never, ever, ever want done. "I'd f*** you in the arse" is not the worst of it.

I have been slapped across the face, kicked and punched by a man who was quite considerably stronger and larger than I am, to the point where I lost my balance and sustained cuts and bruises, and been told that it was my fault for making him angry.

I have been passed over for jobs in favour of men with less experience and lower qualifications. I cannot absolutely 100% prove that it was because I am a woman of child bearing age but in my own mind, I am absolutely bloody certain of it. See point 1.

I have been driven off predominantly male internet forums by rape and death threats. There were also quite a few accusations of being fat and ugly and participating in the community purely to get male attention. Apparently I couldn't have any other reason.

I do live in a country where I won't be forced to have a child I don't want, so that's a good thing. My hideous traumatic birth experience and the resulting permanent injuries were, at least, a risk I chose to have and not one that was forced upon me.

I don't care to go looking for it, and I am aware of the importance of personal autonomy (see the previous point), but I do know that if I care to seek it out, I will have no shortage of pornography depicting women being strangled, suffocated and beaten until they bleed freely. 

I mean, I suppose I don't feel "oppressed" day to day as such, and I know things used to be worse. But when, for example, someone takes offence because I made a joke about mankinis looking funny, I find it really, really, really hard to care.

 

 

[Beth Macbain]

11 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

And those who are oppressed by the system include men: the young boy who has been told he should be ashamed of himself for crying or feeling "weak" or "running like a girl," as well as the adult male who has been conditioned by society to be "macho" and, sometimes, abusive to women.

Don't even get me started on men (and sadly, women) calling each other "little b****". The use of the B word as an insult (and just as a way to refer to women all the way around) makes me livid. And the P word. And C word. 

[Amina Sopwith]

19 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

Don't even get me started on men (and sadly, women) calling each other "little b****". The use of the B word as an insult (and just as a way to refer to women all the way around) makes me livid. And the P word. And C word. 

I find it really, really, ever so strange that this idea persists that women are the "b*tchy" (for want of a better word) gender who all hate each other and can't get on. Most political parties are a fair mix of male and female and they seem to do a great job of backstabbing and infighting. Most world leaders are men, but history textbooks suggest that they haven't got the hang of healing the earth either.

 

[Selene Gregoire]

37 minutes ago, Amina Sopwith said:

I find it really, really, ever so strange that this idea persists that women are the "b*tchy" (for want of a better word) gender who all hate each other and can't get on. Most political parties are a fair mix of male and female and they seem to do a great job of backstabbing and infighting. Most world leaders are men, but history textbooks suggest that they haven't got the hang of healing the earth either.

 

That's because it's the female of the species that holds that "secret" and the male of the species is too damn proud of their so called masculinity to listen to the females.

[LarisaPixel]

Selene and Amina, I was saddened when I watched the Netflix David Letterman interview with Melinda Gates. She mentioned two things impactful to society: (1) The Moment of Lift [her new book on topic] (2) Women had risen to 37% in AI and they have now fallen to 19% in AI. She also said she can count on both hands the women of power in AI. Please take the time to watch this interview. Thank you for bravely speaking out in Community.

[Amina Sopwith]

40 minutes ago, LarisaPixel said:

Selene and Amina, I was saddened when I watched the Netflix David Letterman interview with Melinda Gates. She mentioned two things impactful to society: (1) The Moment of Lift [her new book on topic] (2) Women had risen to 37% in AI and they have now fallen to 19% in AI. She also said she can count on both hands the women of power in AI. Please take the time to watch this interview. Thank you for bravely speaking out in Community.

I'll check it out, thank you.

Thank you also for calling me "brave", because it did actually take a surprising amount of guts to post that.

[Eva Knoller]

I am just now catching up with this thread and want to say thanks for fighting the good fight ladies!

 

 

[kiramanell]

On 6/8/2019 at 8:41 PM, Akane Nacht said:

I dunno.. I still feel a bit oppressed. I'll feel better if someone buys me a houseboat... 😇

 

This thread needs some levity.