Huge Packaging Annoyances

[Selene Gregoire]

51 minutes ago, Snugs McMasters said:

This is a point of pride for Maddy.

*sets you on fire, for Maddy's sanity or whatever is left of it... if anything*

[Prokofy Neva]

19 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

A "cut" doesn't delete the file until after you have pasted it. Make a couple blank prims and try this out:

Cut one box, don't paste, and cut another box instead. The first box is unaffected. Now, while you've cut the second box, relog. The second box is unaffected.

There's no possible glitch that could happen here because of how cut/paste works.

This is entirely valid. Personally, my mouse sometimes releases a mouse click because there is dust in the mouse and/or I don't apply enough pressure while moving the mouse.

This is a matter of preference (annoying), habit (confusing), and lastly doubtful. I'd like to see the risk of content loss demonstrated (not a story of what happened), because even if an unpacker sends you a folder and automatically detaches itself, you can still accept the folder and "receive" it.

Fun fact: When someone/thing gives you ANYTHING, it is automatically put into your inventory before you even accept the prompt. Accepting or refusing it just tells your viewer what to do. On accept, the viewer will probably just bring up your inventory with the item selected (or whatever it's set to do), on refuse the viewer will move it to trash. DOING NOTHING (eg. crash) will leave the item in a default system folder, or main inventory if it was a folder.

Wulfie, try this: click on "cut," and then crash or freeze. Go ahead, I'll wait, it may not be long. Oh, after you re-log is your "cut" still there? Oh. OK. Well, now you get my point.

It's not about "after you paste," but "after you have to re-log." Hello!

So I realize you are feeling a vast sense of superiority because you imagine (falsely) that I don't understand how "cut and paste" works, which has been around since the dawn of computers or whatever. But I think you must not know how "relog" works. It doesn't keep what you have done in the previous session.

I don't have dust in my mouse. Even a brand new mouse can slip when you have 100,000 things in inventory.

And that's just it -- nobody should have to scroll through zillions of folders to drop an object when there is another, simpler, better way that involves ZERO scrolling: pulling directly out of an inventory box into a folder you have already found through -- wait for it! -- SEARCH. Now, to be sure, often you have to "let go of" search or erase it because on the SL inventory in "Recent" and even in regular inventory, it simply jams and doesn't function. Everybody knows that. But it shouldn't  jam when putting something *into* a folder -- the jamming usually happens when trying to rez out from a folder into search, inworld from "Recent" (can't be done) or even regular inventory. EVEN IF someone thinks that isn't a problem and they have solved it from another viewer or however they've solved it, it still doesn't mitigate the chore of sorting from within inventory. Sorting FROM a box inventory rezzed inworld is always better, faster, and more intuitive than sorting from inventory itself, singe or double windows.

This exchange is a very good example of how the tech-crippled mind can't see the obvious about user problems.

I explained in detail in the original post why the automatic unpacking leads to loss: because if you are already schooled to NOT accepting an extra UNFILED copy of something, you DO NOT accept it because you PREFER to pull DIRECTLY out of a box into a file WHERE YOU ALREADY ARE, THROUGH SEARCH. Can you grasp that? And again, if an unpacker unpacks and you did nothing, chances of it "still being there" when you re-log are not 100%. It usually isn't, in fact.

Fun fact right back at you: IT DOESN'T MATTER IF YOUR INVENTORY AUTOMATICALLY 'ACCEPTED IT'. IT IS NOT SORTED. IT IS NOT FILED. IT IS NOT WHERE YOU WANT IT.

Automatic unpacking FIGHTS the effort to sort inventory. AFTER something has unpacked and put itself at the top of the queue in OBJECTS, you have to FILE IT. How? Dragging across a zillion folders (not recommended and not only because of mouse slippage). Opening another inventory window (ALWAYS laggy, now taking even way more time as anything of this nature does with those experiencing problems with SL -- just ask those who really do instead of the forums-dwellers). EVEN AFTER you open the second inventory window, there's the annoyance of having to keep scrolling past already-filed items each time you sort an item -- it's the main depressor to the action of "opening a second issue" after the initial lag of opening it in the first place. The system doesn't "remember last place". Each and every time, you have to start over to file each item.

Re: your claim: "DOING NOTHING (eg. crash) will leave the item in a default system folder, or main inventory if it was a folder."

This simply isn't true. You must never have played a gatcha, for one, or must not shop much, for two, I suspect both given everything. The whole reason I had to contact vendors lately after a spate of shopping is because THE ITEM IS GONE. IT IS NOT THERE. IT IS NOT IN INVENTORY.

If you don't believe me, ask any merchant, especially the top ones, who do not have re-delivery as a function of their vending system -- and that's more than you think. Ask them what their customer tickets are. Many of them involve failure to deliver, inworld, let alone from the market place.

How do you know something is "really not there"? Because when you re-log after the freeze or crash you use what we call SEARCH. To be sure, you sometimes have to be creative and think of several ways to search for items with names smushed together or brackets or whatever, they don't always "turn up". But let's say you have some very simply-named items. You look. They are not there. Or let's say you abandon search because it doesn't work always, and simply manually look at your folders. They are not at the top of the queue in "Objects" sorted for "recent". They are not at the top of the queue in "Lost and Found". They are not in "trash". They are not in regular (non-recent) inventory. They are NOWHERE. If you lost expensive single-copy items AND an expensive copyable item, too, you might grasp this. But since you haven't, you don't.

 

[Prokofy Neva]

On 11/27/2018 at 6:31 PM, Lindal Kidd said:

I don't mind the scripted boxes too much.  I NEVER wear them though, I just rez them.  If they want to animate me, I tell them "no."  If they say "touch to unpack," I'll generally do so, although I often also just use the old right-click-and-Open method.

I do NOT like the HUDs that "send me my items".  They work, but they are so different from the normal procedure that it's just jarring.

One thing I have encountered a few times:  When using "touch to unpack" or with items that send you their contents without instructing them to, I have occasionally had them NOT send important No Copy parts of the contents.  Since I generally delete the box once I've unpacked it, this has caused me to contact the creator a couple of times and ask for a "missing" alpha mask.  Having been burned by this a couple of times, I'm now more cautious about checking that ALL the contents of a box have got unpacked.

I'm glad you've at least admitted that essentially you have the same problem I've outlined, even though your posture lately has to ridicule or contradict anything I say.

Let me suggest there is a simple problem other than entering Stockholm Syndrome for what you are describing -- eliminating "automatic unpacker". The script called "Silent Unpacker" or any similar script. End it. Deprecate it. And then people can put away their own items as they see fit.

The Lindens grasped a long time ago that items that automatically sought "yes" to accessing your Linden dollars needed a big, scary warning. Anything that took those Lindens without asking (Philip's initial fairy slot machine) had to be removed completely from the system or banned from use. So maybe they will put in a scary warning like "Accept this now or you may lose it" -- except they won't. 

There's a better way. Merchants need to cease using this script in their packaging. 

Edited November 30, 2018 by Prokofy Neva

[Prokofy Neva]

On 11/27/2018 at 6:43 PM, Theresa Tennyson said:

1) Go to "RECENT" tab, right click new goodie, select "Cut."

2) Go to "MY INVENTORY" tab, right click your desired folder, select "Paste."

Try that move and then have your SL lock up, freeze, crash, or simply take too long to do anything. 

See if you "cut" is still there when you re-log.

Go ahead, I'll wait.

[Ivy Mysterious]

I gotta ask...

What made you this bitter and condescending towards people?

Was because someone got the last cookie before you WAY too many times in your life?

A sibling that broke your favorite toy as a kid?

 

[Rhonda Huntress]

13 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

have your SL lock up, freeze, crash, or simply take too long to do anything.

The best I can "have" SL do is to lose the network.  Maybe somewhere laggy, like Uber if it is still busy.  I'll give it a shot.

[eta]

I picked up a demo at Uber.  I opened inventory and cut the new folder, then restarted my router.  While the router was booting, I cold booted my PC. 

After reboot, I logged in at home instead of last location.  The demo folder and all of its contents are still there.

 

Edited November 30, 2018 by Rhonda Huntress

[ellestones]

12 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Try that move and then have your SL lock up, freeze, crash, or simply take too long to do anything. 

See if you "cut" is still there when you re-log.

Go ahead, I'll wait.

this is a really good point

i have hardly any no-copy/transfer-only items. You do. That's the difference

i also think quite a few others on here don't get what are you saying because like me they have very few no-copy items that they have paid for

[Callum Meriman]

Just tested in Firestorm

Had an alt send a no-copy prim
Cut
Turned off computer
Turned on computer
Started Firestorm
Item was there in it's original place.

About to test with the SL client after it finished installing, because that's what Prok uses...

Edit: Just tested in the official SL client

Using the same no-copy prim
Cut
Turned off computer
Turned on computer
Started SL Client
Item was there in it's original place.

Edited November 30, 2018 by Callum Meriman

[Prokofy Neva]

I think it's wonderful to have such a sense of righteousness that you are able and willing to stop whatever you are doing and prove someone wrong on the forums. I don't suffer from that problem as I have many more things to do, evidently, and not the overwhelming desire to sit on the forums all day heckling people.

So I happened to be online now so I made a test prim that was transfer-only, no-copy, no-mod. I selected "Cut" and then used search to find the folder "chairs" -- then stopped what I was doing and re-logged.

I re-logged, opened up "inventory" all ready now to "paste" my "cut" which you assured me would be there. I scrolled down to "objects", found the folder "chair" and...there was nothing in "paste".

"Paste" is greyed out and doesn't work.

This is on the SL viewer.

Good thing that was a test prim and not  a rare gatcha.

Now, I realize that the act of first searching to find the sub-folder may have "thrown off" your "experiment to show it works."

Or perhaps "scrolling down to find the sub-folder" after re-logging "threw off your experiment" but there it is. There is nothing to "Paste."

I might try it again without searching or scrolling, to baby it along and make sure it works like you said it does. But life is short and then you die.

 

 

[Prokofy Neva]

44 minutes ago, ellestones said:

this is a really good point

i have hardly any no-copy/transfer-only items. You do. That's the difference

i also think quite a few others on here don't get what are you saying because like me they have very few no-copy items that they have paid for

In general, the forums regulars rarely log inworld, rarely shop, and rarely try to make anything. There are a few vocal exceptions that sound off each time I make this valid point. But I once took a list of all the forums' snarks, checked to see their inworld stores or homes or anything, and...it was super sad.

[Rhonda Huntress]

1 minute ago, Prokofy Neva said:

But I once took a list of all the forums' snarks

Was I on the list?  I am always on Santa's Naughty list but I want to be sure and make Prok's Snark List too.

 

[Prokofy Neva]

55 minutes ago, Rhonda Huntress said:

The best I can "have" SL do is to lose the network.  Maybe somewhere laggy, like Uber if it is still busy.  I'll give it a shot.

[eta]

I picked up a demo at Uber.  I opened inventory and cut the new folder, then restarted my router.  While the router was booting, I cold booted my PC. 

After reboot, I logged in at home instead of last location.  The demo folder and all of its contents are still there.

 

I'm happy for you. As you can see, this experiment didn't work for me.

You might try first searching before you "paste" that "cut," then relog.

Then try searching again before you "paste" -- maybe it will work, maybe it won't.

Didn't for me.

[MoiraKathleen]

8 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

I'm happy for you. As you can see, this experiment didn't work for me.

You might try first searching before you "paste" that "cut," then relog.

Then try searching again before you "paste" -- maybe it will work, maybe it won't.

Didn't for me. 

You said that the "Paste" was greyed out when you re-logged, which I'm not surprised about.  But was the  test-prim that you made still in the location that it had been in when you did the "Cut" ?  My understanding of the tests people were doing was that the item was not lost from the inventory (so that they would be able to re-do the "cut" and then "paste"). 

 

[Prokofy Neva]

On 11/27/2018 at 5:37 AM, Love Zhaoying said:

What I don’t understand is, why you are resistant to change. When I first experienced the “relatively new” way of dealing with packaging, aka “wear me”, I was annoyed too. But I got over it, because it is better.

It's not better. Content is lost. The end.

[Prokofy Neva]

2 minutes ago, moirakathleen said:

You said that the "Paste" was greyed out when you re-logged, which I'm not surprised about.  But was the  test-prim that you made still in the location that it had been in when you did the "Cut" ?  My understanding of the tests people were doing was that the item was not lost from the inventory (so that they would be able to re-do the "cut" and then "paste"). 

 

I love science and the scientific method. I just wish it were applied evenly by those who so religiously espouse it.

BTW, even if I don't search first and re-log, the "paste" is STILL greyed out.

The reason a transfer-only test prim is still in inventory despite anything is because the system keeps a copy of my own created object in my inventory. It won't do that for other people's.

When I happen to find an item that isn't mind that I don't mind burning, I could test it, but "real life" and "experience in the field" have already proven to me that these items ARE GONE.

My point is that "Cut" does not hold through a re-log. "Paste" is not there. THAT is not a reliable method at all to be using on inventory. I would never use it for that reason alone.

Second, when an automatic unpacker sends you an item you DO NOT accept, it is "not there". It is not in the box (sometimes, even if copyable, that pertains; but certainly if non-copyable it is gone from the box).

It is not in inventory anywhere.

It is not in inventory when you re-log.

It's gone.

 

[Hunter Stern]

I say we need packages like the ones from Amazon! Can you feel it Can you feel it Can you feel it!

[Callum Meriman]

34 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

I re-logged, opened up "inventory" all ready now to "paste" my "cut" which you assured me would be there. I scrolled down to "objects", found the folder "chair" and...there was nothing in "paste".

"Paste" is greyed out and doesn't work.

No, I was working with content loss, not just the paste action. I am sorry to have misunderstood you. You are correct, that is lost on a crash, as it's memory only. But at least, phew, we know the item is still there so there is no content loss.

Can you use the recent tab to see it? It might be a valid workaround for you. Set your recent to 7 days and make that tab show newest first.

When you get a force-unpacked box it will be at the top of the list, you can cut again, then move to the full inventory window and try the paste.

Edited November 30, 2018 by Callum Meriman

[MoiraKathleen]

12 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

I love science and the scientific method. I just wish it were applied evenly by those who so religiously espouse it.

BTW, even if I don't search first and re-log, the "paste" is STILL greyed out.

The reason a transfer-only test prim is still in inventory despite anything is because the system keeps a copy of my own created object in my inventory. It won't do that for other people's.

When I happen to find an item that isn't mind that I don't mind burning, I could test it, but "real life" and "experience in the field" have already proven to me that these items ARE GONE.

My point is that "Cut" does not hold through a re-log. "Paste" is not there. THAT is not a reliable method at all to be using on inventory. I would never use it for that reason alone.

Second, when an automatic unpacker sends you an item you DO NOT accept, it is "not there". It is not in the box (sometimes, even if copyable, that pertains; but certainly if non-copyable it is gone from the box).

It is not in inventory anywhere.

It is not in inventory when you re-log.

It's gone.

 

I didn't think about the difference between a self-created object and a no-copy object, obviously - though I thought one of the tests done was with a no-copy object from an alt. 

I think I'll just stay with my current methods for unpacking and moving things around in my inventory.  I sometimes have the issue of something getting misfiled when I'm dragging an item with the mouse, but generally I'm able to catch and rectify that. 

Edited November 30, 2018 by moirakathleen
removed unwanted apostrophe

[Wulfie Reanimator]

3 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

If you don't believe me, ask any merchant, especially the top ones, who do not have re-delivery as a function of their vending system -- and that's more than you think. Ask them what their customer tickets are. Many of them involve failure to deliver, inworld, let alone from the market place.

Failure to deliver - at least on MP - means that the item just.. never arrives. No notification or anything. The difference here is that if you get far enough to get the "X has sent you an object called blahblah, accept?" prompt, you already have it. I will go ahead and do some crash tests th--

2 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

I re-logged, opened up "inventory" all ready now to "paste" my "cut" which you assured me would be there. I scrolled down to "objects", found the folder "chair" and...there was nothing in "paste".

"Paste" is greyed out and doesn't work.

This is on the SL viewer.

Good thing that was a test prim and not  a rare gatcha.

Prokofy. When I say this, I say this with utmost respect.

Of course there isn't anything to paste if you shut down the viewer. The SL viewer (official and others) have their own "clipboard" that it keeps in memory while the viewer is on. Closing the viewer clears whatever you've cut or copied, but all it is, is a reference to the original. Not the original.

Your test object isn't gone. It's still in its original place where you had it when you cut it. If this was a rare gatcha, it would be perfectly fine in your inventory.

Edited November 30, 2018 by Wulfie Reanimator

[Callum Meriman]

Anyway, this is the way I do it, mind you I am a few weeks out of date, heh. I should sort my inventory again.

[LittleMe Jewell]

1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

I re-logged, opened up "inventory" all ready now to "paste" my "cut" which you assured me would be there. I scrolled down to "objects", found the folder "chair" and...there was nothing in "paste".

"Paste" is greyed out and doesn't work.

LOLOLOLOLOL 

"Cut" and "Paste" does not work that way.  You cannot "paste" something that was "cut" in a different session.  The original item is still there, but you have to "cut" it again before you can "paste" it.  The "cut" is not maintained across sessions -- in ANY application.

[Theresa Tennyson]

4 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

I think it's wonderful to have such a sense of righteousness that you are able and willing to stop whatever you are doing and prove someone wrong on the forums. I don't suffer from that problem as I have many more things to do, evidently, and not the overwhelming desire to sit on the forums all day heckling people.

 

Some people's sense of righteousness makes them able and willing to stop whatever they're doing and be wrong on the forums.

Edited November 30, 2018 by Theresa Tennyson

[Paul Hexem]

On ‎11‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 5:10 PM, Prokofy Neva said:

Lots and lots of typing.

I know it's off topic, but I find myself wondering how many times in a year you replace your keyboard.

[Love Zhaoying]

1 hour ago, Gadget Portal said:

I know it's off topic, but I find myself wondering how many times in a year you replace your keyboard.

At my office, I’ve been using the same keyboard 21 years. It’s not even USB.

[Callum Meriman]

20 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

At my office, I’ve been using the same keyboard 21 years. It’s not even USB.

Impressive! One of those IBM clackety-clack ones?