No Copy clothes? Give me a break!

[ShelbyBeu]

I dislike No Copy anything, and generally won't buy No Copy given a decent Copy alternative.  It's very, very easy to lose them and you have to rely on the good will of the seller to replace them.  The seller also has a real life and may not be on when you want it replaced, so even if that person had good will, it may be hard to find the seller.

But with most items at least I understand why they might be No Copy.  Nearly all (maybe absolutely all) SL radios are No Copy, and I decided I'd buy one rather than keep trying to get the music stream on my little parcel that I wanted, despite having to buy No Copy.  As the maker explained to me, there's a reason for it, which is that estate owners could buy one Copyable radio and put it in dozens of apartments or something.  I still will buy Copy if I can, and I think everyone should.  But with items like that, at least there is some logic.

I was in a clothing store today, with decent clothing.  I might have purchased something, except it was all No Copy, and they were not gachas.

There is zero excuse for that, and I wouldn't buy No Copy clothing if it were 99% of SL clothing.  I'd buy from the 1% then that was Copy.  The only argument for No Copy, besides gachas which some have fun with, is that multiple copies might be in use at a time if it's something an estate owner could put in multiple estates.  But as long as it's No Transfer, I can't do that with clothing I buy anyway.  I could have 50 copies but could only wear one, or wear all 50 and look stupid.  No Transfer is enough to make sure I don't give away or sell 50 copies.  That goes also for skins, animations, and many other things that must be on the person to be useful.  All you do when you make something like that No Copy is to introduce the risk of losing it, which easily can happen and if you replace it inconvenience yourself to do that, and if you don't then have an upset customer who bought the product but can't use it.

Most makers of things that must be on the person realize this and make their items Copy, thankfully.  But if you don't, you will lose sales, you should lose sales, and in fact for clothing and the like you should get zero sales because there's no reason for No Copy at all.  I also dislike No Mod unless there's a hud with many textures available, but that's a different issue.  I'm a lot less likely to buy something I can only get in one color that can't be changed, but it's not as extreme as with No Copy absolutely meaning No Sale with on-person items.

I also with most things like furniture and decor can find Copy items, most of which can be modified as well, and will prefer them also, and I encourage others to buy Copy/Mod there if they can, but again it's not as extremely simple.  I realize there are two sides there.

But there is no reason for any on-person items, that one must have on herself to work, to be No Copy, and all I can do is post to let sellers know they lose sales if they do that and to help buyers see that buying those items encourages a ridiculous restriction and, like all No Copy, takes a significant risk of loss of what you bought.

[TikiNova Adonide]

ShelbyBeu is right! My favorite items show up in tons of outfits and i MUST have 'copy'...MUST !!

[Pamela Galli]

We have had hundreds of threads on this very same subject. 

The upshot: Its your SL, whether buyer or creator. Buy / create what you want, don’t buy / don’t create what you don’t want. 

[Chic Aeon]

9 hours ago, TikiNova Adonide said:

ShelbyBeu is right! My favorite items show up in tons of outfits and i MUST have 'copy'...MUST !!

The official outfits feature in the OUTFITS tab (little shirt icon) is made from LINKS to a clothing item. You only need ONE item to link to so this is irrelevant to the discussion. I am with Pamela on this. A creator has the right to market as they choose.

Long ago almost everything including clothes were no copy. They WERE transfer however.  Creators made more money that way. 

I think the trend to copy items took hold so that people could redeliver lots items without worrying they were giving someone a new copy --- one they should have to pay for according to the no copy rules.  There are still some furniture stores that have everything no copy. Some have been in SL for over a decade -- so it must work out for them. 

 

 

[Bradford Mint]

41 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

The official outfits feature in the OUTFITS tab (little shirt icon) is made from LINKS to a clothing item. You only need ONE item to link to so this is irrelevant to the discussion. I am with Pamela on this. A creator has the right to market as they choose.

I don't know if it has changed but it used to be the case that RLV enabled viewers would resolve the actual folder location of clothing layer items and this caused problems when trying to perform a scripted folder unwear.  Thus more than one copy was needed and is relevant to the discussion, links don't work(?).

(Unless it has since changed?  Links to objects worked, links to clothing layer items did not, just to be specific. To the best of my knowledge, the problem has not been addressed.)

[ShelbyBeu]

On 8/3/2018 at 12:21 AM, Pamela Galli said:

We have had hundreds of threads on this very same subject. 

The upshot: Its your SL, whether buyer or creator. Buy / create what you want, don’t buy / don’t create what you don’t want. 

BUT, when people create with No Copy that limits the selection for those who want copy, and with clothes/skins/animations there's no excuse for it.  I don't even like it with other items, but those that could be used other placed at least I understand why.

So I'm doing all I can, trying to convince people not to buy items like that, which will lead creators to feel they must give Copy perms.

[Bradford Mint]

1 hour ago, ShelbyBeu said:

BUT, when people create with No Copy that limits the selection for those who want copy

So I'm doing all I can, trying to convince people not to buy items like that, which will lead creators to feel they must give Copy perms.

As to the first sentence, it does not. The selection of the copy items remains exactly the same! There is an additional range of items with no copy permission to choose from 

Second paragraph, creators generally don't feel they must do *anything*. Arguing with then to enforce your opinion will usually result in an equal and opposite response. Almost to the point that Newton's third law applies.

[Candice LittleBoots]

With No Modify I can understand some grumbling, as that is commonplace, but No Copy is something I rarely see, unless it's a gacha item.

My inventory is 40k+ and I can only recall two things ever being No Copy when I wanted to make a copy. Once was for a pair of earrings which I wanted to to copy for two different heights/size of avatar, the other some bracelets for the same reason.

This equates to 0.005% of my items. I have never bothered to verify of something is No Copy or not prior to purchase. Maybe it is becoming more widespread, but it's not something affecting me beyond being barely noticeable.

I get so much for free through events, group gifts, hunts, freebies etc. that I feel it would be a bit of a nerve to have a moan. Both items mentioned above I didn't buy.

 

[Madison Heartsong]

14 minutes ago, Candice LittleBoots said:

With No Modify I can understand some grumbling, as that is commonplace, but No Copy is something I rarely see, unless it's a gacha item.

My inventory is 40k+ and I can only recall two things ever being No Copy when I wanted to make a copy. Once was for a pair of earrings which I wanted to to copy for two different heights/size of avatar, the other some bracelets for the same reason.

This equates to 0.005% of my items. I have never bothered to verify of something is No Copy or not prior to purchase. Maybe it is becoming more widespread, but it's not something affecting me beyond being barely noticeable.

I get so much for free through events, group gifts, hunts, freebies etc. that I feel it would be a bit of a nerve to have a moan. Both items mentioned above I didn't buy.

 

On mp I tend to filter for copy, and depending in the item type that causes at least 1/5 to disappear once I apply the filter, even for clothes; and a lot more disappear in other areas.

Today I forgot to filter, and was ready to buy something, but checked perms, saw no copy, and so didn't buy it.

If enough people do the same people will stop selecting it if they want to sell things.  No mod is also a very annoying thing.  If I pay for the item I should be able to modify it all I want.  The more people insist on copy/mod, the more such items there will be.  I've read about how, before my time, most things were no copy; and then some sort of bug made a lot of things disappear on rez, so many wouldn't buy no copy; so a lot of creators gave in to that and made their items copy.

I don't want more bugs, but I want what the OP seems to want, for creators to know they must do copy/mod or their item won't sell.  Then more and more would by copy/mod.

[ShelbyBeu]

I'd rather be able to modify everything, and I'm not happy that some creators to ban it, but most furniture can be modified and most non-mod clothes have huds or a number of color choices.  So that isn't what I decided to post about.

Can anyone give me any reasonable reason though why someone would make clothes, animations, or skins no copy instead of no transfer?  I'm not even talking so much about household items, which at least the case can be made that they're stopping an estate owner from giving use of them to all who rent or something.  Not that I like it then, but at least I see the other side.  But those that only work if they're in my inventory, no excuse, period.

The only excuse I can imagine is that they think I want to resell them and would rather have transfer.  Uh...no.  If it's a gift I'll buy it as a gift.  If I plan to wear it myself, I can't imagine a time I'll want to resell it.  And if I did want to, it's only worth anything if I undersell what they charge, so they should prefer to give me copy instead.  So no reasonable reason.

[Bradford Mint]

3 minutes ago, ShelbyBeu said:

Can anyone give me any reasonable reason though why someone would make clothes, animations, or skins no copy instead of no transfer?

Two reasons:-

1. Because the creator has that choice and chooses to use it.
2. Because some customers actually request the ability to have an item no copy/transfer because they want to give the gift themselves and not gift it via a vending system or MP gift option.  Yes, that happens.

[Cindy Evanier]

5 minutes ago, ShelbyBeu said:

Can anyone give me any reasonable reason

Because they made it.  They have the right to set any perms they want on it.  You have the right not to buy it if it doesn't suit your needs.

[animats]

My favorite botched wearable item is ZiSwim. It's a "Swim HUD". It rezzes ripples as you swim, and they move away from the swimmer on the water surface. It's no-mod, no-copy, no-trans. Once a ripple ran into a security orb and was returned. I have the ripple in inventory, but I can't put it back in the HUD, because the HUD is no-mod. So every time the HUD starts up, it complains it can't find it's "ripple" item.

If you're going to restrict the user's use of your product via DRM, that DRM had better be bulletproof.

The creator seems to be gone from SL. Anyone want to recommend a better swim HUD?

[Pamela Galli]

2 hours ago, Cindy Evanier said:

 They have the right to set any perms they want on it.  You have the right not to buy it if it doesn't suit your needs.

It is amazing that anyone thinks this is not the final word on the subject. This is what free market means. Applies to RL as well.

Edited August 4, 2018 by Pamela Galli

[Theresa Tennyson]

2 hours ago, ShelbyBeu said:

Can anyone give me any reasonable reason though why someone would make clothes, animations, or skins no copy instead of no transfer? 

Transferrable items can be given as gifts in-world, and they are the only type of item that makers are willing to offer refunds on if the customer is dissatisfied.

[ShelbyBeu]

2 hours ago, Pamela Galli said:

It is amazing that anyone thinks this is not the final word on the subject. This is what free market means. Applies to RL as well.

And is it wrong for me to try to improve the market by pointing out that a I strongly believe a business practice is bad and should not be supported, and also to point out that any No Copy item can very easily be lost, and you have to hope the creator has the good will to replace it, and that even if they do there's a good chance there will be significant inconvenience finding them, since they do have real lives and you likely do as well, and you may not even always be sure they're still part of SL?

I still wouldn't say it's that awful of a business practice if it's something that can, if copied, be used in many places, so I limited to items on the person.  Due to the loss risk I'd rather avoid No Copy entirely, but there's more reason for it in things like furniture.

I think people should avoid things like No Copy furniture due to the risk of loss, but only that.  I think people should avoid No Copy clothing and the like not only due to the risk of loss but also to possibly try to make the SL market better. 

The more sales that can be lost by denying Copy permissions, especially on items that only one person can use at once, the better I think the market will be.  I think on items like that the creator often hasn't even thought it through, maybe doesn't know anyone is out there who avoids items due to those permissions, and maybe don't realize extra copies of things that must be in the user's inventory don't hurt them, not having thought it through.  Maybe some buyers have lost items due to No Copy and think it's their own fault, where even if they screwed up to lose it, a lot of the fault is the creator's setting No Copy.  If anyone in those situations changes their minds in what I consider a positive way, I'm glad I posted.

If instead, as someone posted, it causes an opposite reaction and someone is so scummy as to think just to spite me they'll start going No Copy, I hope they lose a lot of business for it, but maybe then I should have just stayed away from No Copy myself and told people in game, but not posted.

[Alyona Su]

On 8/4/2018 at 5:51 PM, ShelbyBeu said:

And is it wrong for me to try to improve the market by pointing out that a I strongly believe a business practice is bad and should not be supported...

1

• You don't have to buy it if you disagree with the permissions; caveat emptor
• It's not the creator's fault if you purchase willy-nilly without checking things like permissions.
• You say it should not be supported based on *your* ideas, as though everyone else shares them.
• Sugar draws more flies than vinegar; the best way to improve something is to win over those who can change it, not insult them or rant about it.

/me breaks out her micro-violin and begins playing the ever-popular tune "Entitlement Boo-Hoo for the Snowflakes"

Edited August 6, 2018 by Alyona Su

[ShelbyBeu]

23 hours ago, Alyona Su said:

• You don't have to buy it if you disagree with the permissions; caveat emptor
• It's not the creator's fault if you purchase willy-nilly without checking things like permissions.
• You say it should not be supported based on *your* ideas, as though everyone else shares them.
• Sugar draws more flies than vinegar; the best way to improve something is to win over those who can change it, not insult them or rant about it.

/me breaks out her micro-violin and begins playing the ever-popular tune "Entitlement Boo-Hoo for the Snowflakes"

 

In order:

• Correct.  What set me off was having to pass up some otherwise good clothing due to perms I consider ridiculous in clothing.
• Agreed that if you don't check the perms that isn't the creator's fault, but a lot of people don't even realize perms are important so lose items because they bought no copy.  I want then for them to realize the perms are more at fault than they are for "mishandling" the item, so maybe instead of thinking they'd better be more careful with the item itself they just will buy Copy in the future.
• One of my goals was to increase the number who shared my ideas, whether or not that was the actual effect.
• I'd like to win over those who can change it, who foremost are the buyers.  If enough stopped buying No Copy, at least for must-be-in-inventory items, sellers will stop setting those perms.  I also want to win over the creators as well, let them know they do lose some sales to being No Copy.

Edited August 7, 2018 by ShelbyBeu

[Alyona Su]

43 minutes ago, ShelbyBeu said:

 

In order:

• Correct.  What set me off was having to pass up some otherwise good clothing due to perms I consider ridiculous in clothing.
• Agreed that if you don't check the perms that isn't the creator's fault, but a lot of people don't even realize perms are important so lose items because they bought no copy.  I want then for them to realize the perms are more at fault than they are for "mishandling" the item, so maybe instead of thinking they'd better be more careful with the item itself they just will buy Copy in the future.
• One of my goals was to increase the number who shared my ideas, whether or not that was the actual effect.
• I'd like to win over those who can change it, who foremost are the buyers.  If enough stopped buying No Copy, at least for must-be-in-inventory items, sellers will stop setting those perms.  I also want to win over the creators as well, let them know they do lose some sales to being No Copy.

A fair response. Thank you for recognizing my viewpoints as my own and respecting them, as I respect yours also. You have certainly earned my respect. The "Violin" quip, by the way, is something I always throw into my rebuttal comments in threads like these.

Now, if only the rest of the forums would be so eloquent in their debates.

Edited August 7, 2018 by Alyona Su

[Bradford Mint]

Well you have an option. Before purchase, you can always message the creator and ask if they can do an item in the permissions of your preference. 

If it's not in conflict with the merchants preference and they have time and it's worth it and it's technically possible... They might do it for you.

If not, feel free to politely state that you won't buy as it doesn't suit YOUR needs.

It still remains the case that neither buyer nor merchant is any more right or wrong than the other.

[drusilladarkwillow]

On ‎8‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 12:45 AM, ShelbyBeu said:

BUT, when people create with No Copy that limits the selection for those who want copy, and with clothes/skins/animations there's no excuse for it.  I don't even like it with other items, but those that could be used other placed at least I understand why.

So I'm doing all I can, trying to convince people not to buy items like that, which will lead creators to feel they must give Copy perms.

with an animation being no copy, it's more than likely transferable and that's to protect them so that their products aren't being passed around the grid. Animations, many use in either dance machines or in their own ao that they had built AND most creators have copy versions of them or will create a copy version if you ask them nicely. As for clothes and skins, that would depend on if it came from a gotcha or not. Gotcha items are no copy so that people can trade or resell them on the market and as for clothing, if it's mesh that depends on if they had bought it FP on the market and what the ToS the original creator had as well. 

 

As for if you buy no copy items or not, That's 100% up to you and it's not fair to tell others what they should and shouldn't buy just because you don't like it. It doesn't effect everyone and it's a personal choice. There's some things that I don't buy no copy and others don't I don't care either way.

[Rya Nitely]

Well,  I am a believer in raising issues that might lead to change. That's how changes come about. 

Sometimes merchants don't know what customers want, and I think it's good business sense to listen.

I agree that most people prefer mod copy, but the vast majority prefer full perm. I have full perm and copy versions in my stores, and even people who don't want to resell will still buy full perm over the half price copy version. And I am here to make money, and so selling full perm works for me. I believe I would make half as much if I didn't sell full perm.

So, you are right, and these merchants who sell no copy are losing business for sure. A well known merchant sold all her plants and trees no copy at one stage, but she had the good business sense to follow the trend and sell copy items - as did many others. Those who believe that selling no copy will increase sales because people will buy more than one are wrong because, if there is competition, so many people won't buy even one. Same as those who think selling full perm will result in people handing the item out, this is a false assumption too. It does happen that these items are shared (against my TOS) but it isn't often enough to make a difference.

There is a market for no copy, but I think it would be great if the same item was also sold as copy at a higher price.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

On 8/7/2018 at 9:23 AM, ShelbyBeu said:

  I also want to win over the creators as well, let them know they do lose some sales to being No Copy.

And we have been told we lose sales to items being no transfer... How many different versions of an item do we have to sell to please you? If you want a copy version, perhaps ask the merchant if they will do that for you. 

[Klytyna]

On 03 August 2018 at 11:55 AM, Bradford Mint said:

I don't know if it has changed but it used to be the case that RLV enabled viewers would resolve the actual folder location of clothing layer items and this caused problems when trying to perform a scripted folder unwear.  Thus more than one copy was needed and is relevant to the discussion, links don't work(?).

(Unless it has since changed?  Links to objects worked, links to clothing layer items did not, just to be specific. To the best of my knowledge, the problem has not been addressed.)

Current RLV/RLVa viewers have NO problems wearing or unwearing #RLV subfolders containing links to no-copy items... Just ask ANYONE who ever bought anything from Real Restraints or Restrained Freedom...
 

[Alyona Su]

1 hour ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

And we have been told we lose sales to items being no transfer... How many different versions of an item do we have to sell to please you? If you want a copy version, perhaps ask the merchant if they will do that for you. 

People said that back in back in 2006, not today.

Selling transferable "copy" items is easy: on Market Place: send it as a gift. In world: inexpensive voucher/server system: buyer gets a transferable voucher, once clicked the actual item is delivered. Practically all vendor systems also offer a "Gift" ability to send the purchase to another account.

So the OP still has a very valid point.