Is non-mesh doomed to extinction?

[Macphisto Angelus]

A month or so back I logged in to SL for the first time in awhile. I didn't have a mesh body, so I bugged my SL bestie Maureen B. on the ins and outs and up and downs of it all. After buying head to toe and beyond, I found myself more frustrated with the procedures then fun I was getting out of it. I have a great set of Mesh parts and clothes, but I am going back to system. I will use mesh on special occasions.. but really, I don't see system shapes, skins, etc ever going totally away. Just my humble opinion.

[Gabriele Graves]

This is very long but it roughly chronicles my journey from a staunch "not-going-to-go-to-fully-mesh-ever" person to being 100% mesh today:

I bought mesh hands and feet when they became available just like many others because the system ones were so bad.
I was very happy with them, they were a big improvement.
That was the start but for the longest time I kept my system body and head which was perfectly fine when I was wearing system/flexi-prim clothing.

Soon enough mesh clothing started to appear.
Mesh clothing was enticing because it just looked so much better and before long I was mainly buying mesh clothing.
It didn't take long though to become really frustrated with alpha cuts.
Often the ones supplied were very inadequate, missing and in many cases you could still see the cuts with the clothing on.
I found myself trying to get alpha's from demos of similar clothing to see I could improve things.
I am not good at making alphas and after giving it a go, I realised that this wasn't going to work long term.
This was also at the time before fitmesh and none of the clothing responded to shape sliders.

I had tried a couple of mesh bodies but at that time the ones available didn't respond to shape sliders either and it seemed complicated make existing mesh clothing work with them.
Most mesh clothing was standard sizing at this point - none targeted specific mesh bodies except the ones from the mesh body creators and they had only a small selection available.
One thing they did have though was the ability to *easily* customize the alpha cuts with the HUD.  I really liked that, a lot.
I really felt that LL could have made system alphas that easy with a bit of effort, but I digress.

The alpha improvement wasn't enough.
Part of my reticence was because I wasn't ready to give up my investment in the many, many system outfits I had bought.
That wasn't really the fault of mesh though.
Due to this and the limitations, I wasn't convinced that scripted third-party mesh bodies were ever going to be the answer.
I stayed with my system body for a very long time after this point and hoped that LL would update it.

Time passed and I got by with mesh but wasn't really happy with the results.
Fitmesh came along, things were a little better and I had a good selection of outfits that worked well.
They were far better than any of my system clothing.
More time passed and I was persuaded to give the mesh bodies another go.
At this time at least two of the mesh bodies I had previously tried had been updated to work with shape sliders.
Also outfits from third-parties had started to appear for at least two of them.

I took the plunge, bought one and everything was much better, I could buy clothes that fit much better than they had before and were made specifically for the body I had.
Most fitmesh could be made to work because of the easy alpha cuts and even some of the non-fitmesh could be made to work as well.
The feeling that I really wasn't enjoying SL as much started to lift and I enjoyed clothing again.

This phase lasted quite a while and I really didn't think I would want a mesh head.
At this point mesh heads were static only and the chances of finding "my look" was slim.
The system head was simply a better option to me.
The only thing I was unhappy about at this point was my visible neck join which I couldn't seem to shake under all lighting conditions despite have the several correct sets of skin appliers.
I could live with it - I wore chokers, etc.

Then Project Bento happened, waited to see how things would play out for a while and then got the Bento demos and took a look.
Even with the demos, I could test the appliers.  The neck join had disappeared.
Some heads were very responsive to the shapes sliders and some not so much.
I spent a few hours trying to make the demos look "like me" and ended up with results I was happy with.

I bought a bento head and immediately it felt like the missing piece of the puzzle fell into place.
My avatar looked whole again and the anims and options were great.

Undoubtedly there was a learning curve at each point but that passed reasonably quickly with patience.
After all, I was in no hurry - it wasn't like I had had to eat the whole enchilada at once.
Because I moved to the mesh body first, I had time to adjust to how it worked, get used to appliers before tackling the how the head worked.

I realised at this point that I would never go back to any visibly system body parts.  I was ready.
I deleted over 30,000 items of system clothing, alpha layers, etc. and have never regretted any of it.
Wearing clothing is now far far better than it was before, the difference is quite profound.
I certainly don't miss trying to get flexi-skirts and prim/sculpty attachments to size and position properly.

I am not saying that any of this would be the same for anyone else but I was more surprised than anyone to find myself changing views so radically even though it took a lot of time.
My recommendation to anyone is to keep an open mind, use the demos to keep playing with it all, become familiar with it and maybe one day it will seem like the better option.
I believe that the eventual results are worth the time spent persevering with it.

[Gabriele Graves]

*waves* to @Macphisto Angelus

Hey Mac!  Nice to see you around again

[Blaise Glendevon]

On 3/19/2017 at 7:21 PM, JamieThunder said:

A better comparison would be Europeans assimilating Native peoples

Are you high? Absolutely not. No one is being forced or coerced into adopting mesh bodies with the threat (or actuality) of violence and genocide. Get a grip.

[Harper Held]

I'm not even sure wtf to say ...I use a mix. Yes, I'm one of those vile, horrible people who became attached to the outfit they got in 2009 (Jan twenty-TEN actually tyvm) and while I have a maitreya body I rarely wear it since I can't wear my favorite outfit with it.

So, my skin and shape are system, and new items (eg my jacket) tend to be mesh -I just throw everything together, tbh.

To be honest, no one's given me crap about since I started wearing mesh items. Before then, I had a rep as being an anti-mesh crank; but I mellowed.

Pictured; mesh hair (?), sculty belt, prim horns, ears and tail, mesh jacket, boots and robot arms.

[Macphisto Angelus]

10 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said:

*waves* to @Macphisto Angelus

Hey Mac!  Nice to see you around again

HUGS!!!! Missed you. Got some updates from Mo that you were still about. 

[Teagan Tobias]

I still use the classic avatar, and if the DEMO's that I have tried are anything like the mesh avatar you get then I will be using the classic avatar for some time to come. The fact that I don't have any clothing for them is a total deal breaker. Not to mention that I will need to purchase all new skins. I really don't feel like starting all over again in Second Life, I like what I have.

I use mostly mesh clothing but still mix system (applier) clothing with my mesh clothing. And yes it is getting harder to find good clothing that I can afford.

I can't use fitmesh and will only buy standard size mesh, and although I can still find it, it is getting harder to find. But my 70K inventory will keep my classic avatar clothed for years to come if I can no longer find new clothes. I really don't mind saving that much money.

[Marianne Little]

1 hour ago, Teagan Tobias said:

I still use the classic avatar, and if the DEMO's that I have tried are anything like the mesh avatar you get then I will be using the classic avatar for some time to come. The fact that I don't have any clothing for them is a total deal breaker. Not to mention that I will need to purchase all new skins. I really don't feel like starting all over again in Second Life, I like what I have.

I use mostly mesh clothing but still mix system (applier) clothing with my mesh clothing. And yes it is getting harder to find good clothing that I can afford.

I can't use fitmesh and will only buy standard size mesh, and although I can still find it, it is getting harder to find. But my 70K inventory will keep my classic avatar clothed for years to come if I can no longer find new clothes. I really don't mind saving that much money.

I wonder of you have used the demos enough, because the alpha cuts will make most, if not all, your new mesh clothing work. I have had a lot of cursing and mumbling over alpha layers that didn't fit the standard mesh clothes. The new mesh avatars can work well with their alpha cuts, and if some clip through can happen with the mesh standard clothes, well, I remember that it was so with the system body and alpha layers too.

The system avatar layers, well, I remember from starting SL how I was struggling and trying to edit my shape to make the straps on a sleeveless top right. Finally some kind soul told me that it wasn't my editing skills, it was the polygons in the shape that made the straps go crazy in zigzag. I tossed that and other tops with thin straps. For my whole SL default avatar years, I bought only bras without straps

The applier systems now fix most of that annoying part with textures that go blurry, or deform with the old avatar. The gowns had the lovely flexi skirts, but when you zoomed in on the butt, the fabric was painted on, showing two butt halves... eek. I wonder how many of your system clothes you really use? And if you use mostly tops under jackets and stockings and leggings, then some applier packs will take you a long way.

But, it is all up to you. For me, letting go of system clothes was not easy, but when it was done, I don't miss them.

[angeoco]

System layers are great for anything that is naturally "painted-on", like stockings, and obviously tattoos and makeup. I can't imagine mesh ever replacing that. It's also great for underwear that's well designed to avoid crooked straps and patterns; mesh underwear is beautiful but there's often the chance of it poking through the outer clothes. But good riddance to everything else - those gross glitch pants, skirt "panels" and flexi skirts can rot in hell.

[Gabriele Graves]

11 minutes ago, angeoco said:

System layers are great for anything that is naturally "painted-on", like stockings, and obviously tattoos and makeup. I can't imagine mesh ever replacing that. It's also great for underwear that's well designed to avoid crooked straps and patterns; mesh underwear is beautiful but there's often the chance of it poking through the outer clothes. But good riddance to everything else - those gross glitch pants, skirt "panels" and flexi skirts can rot in hell.

Clothing appliers for mesh bodies are just like system layers except instead of painting on the system body, they paint on the mesh body.
These are very popular for underwear, etc.

[angeoco]

5 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

Clothing appliers for mesh bodies are just like system layers except instead of painting on the system body, they paint on the mesh body.
These are very popular for underwear, etc.

Sorry, I was talking about both system and applier layers there.

[Gabriele Graves]

17 minutes ago, angeoco said:

Sorry, I was talking about both system and applier layers there.

Ahh, OK.  I agree though that "painted on" clothing will always have their uses even in a mesh world.

[Teagan Tobias]

6 hours ago, Marianne Little said:

I wonder of you have used the demos enough, because the alpha cuts will make most, if not all, your new mesh clothing work. I have had a lot of cursing and mumbling over alpha layers that didn't fit the standard mesh clothes. The new mesh avatars can work well with their alpha cuts, and if some clip through can happen with the mesh standard clothes, well, I remember that it was so with the system body and alpha layers too.

The system avatar layers, well, I remember from starting SL how I was struggling and trying to edit my shape to make the straps on a sleeveless top right. Finally some kind soul told me that it wasn't my editing skills, it was the polygons in the shape that made the straps go crazy in zigzag. I tossed that and other tops with thin straps. For my whole SL default avatar years, I bought only bras without straps

The applier systems now fix most of that annoying part with textures that go blurry, or deform with the old avatar. The gowns had the lovely flexi skirts, but when you zoomed in on the butt, the fabric was painted on, showing two butt halves... eek. I wonder how many of your system clothes you really use? And if you use mostly tops under jackets and stockings and leggings, then some applier packs will take you a long way.

But, it is all up to you. For me, letting go of system clothes was not easy, but when it was done, I don't miss them.

 

I have been looking at demos for a couple years, yes that long.

Some of the things you describe I found ways around or did not use opting for a different garment.

And as for your butt under a flexi skirt, try an alpha, you get the beautiful movement with no show through.

And using my system clothing, yes I do, I will use a tee shirt under a nice mesh corset. Or a pair of system jeans with mesh boots and a long mesh top. When I purchase clothing the first thing I look at is how can I use parts of the package, if I can't, I will keep looking. I'm kind of picky.

I find it odd that people will scoff at system clothing but be all in favor of appliers, its still just paint on the avatar skin.

 

 

[Klytyna]

11 minutes ago, Teagan Tobias said:

 

I find it odd that people will scoff at system clothing but be all in favor of appliers, its still just paint on the avatar skin.

 

 

I have an applier hud for latex catsuits, for my Maitreya mesh body, 26 colours... Nice catsuits, but it's not 'just paint' see, unlike that system layer clothing we used to wear way back when, the applied catsuit comes with a normal map and a specular map, the shiny latex is ACTUALLY shiny thanks to the specular maps, it has three dimensional seams and wrinkles, thanks to normal maps,

It looks about 1000% better than any system layer latex catsuit I've seen in SL, ever. Would I willingly revert from  materials enabled layers to 'flat paint'? Hell no.
 

Edited April 1, 2017 by Klytyna

[Teagan Tobias]

Thanks for that information about appliers, I'll remember that if I ever find a mesh avatar that I think I can put up with. But its not looking good at this time.

[HarrisonMcKenzie]

For those complaining about how nothing fits their unique shape... try playing a child avatar for a week.

Even if you are an older child/young teen, nothing that isn't specifically made made for you fits. NOTHING. There is no exaggeration here. Standard sized XS pants look like I can fit another person in them, and shirts look like I have 9 pillows stuffed in them. I can find the odd jacket that doesn't make me look like a pro wrestler, and they still make me look huge. Literally nothing fits.

So I tend to have a little less sympathy for people who aren't even trying mesh and just complain instead. If you are a human shaped adult, everything available will fit you just fine.

[lightpyro]

personally i just want creative control. if you know what you're doing, you can make either system work for you.

[Nikolai Warden]

When mesh clothing first came out before mesh avatars, I recall thinking wow, it is perfect for those who always fit their body to prim clothing because they could not edit prims. I would often see people with no rumps at all, completely flat, walking about because they were not apt with resizing flexi skirts or kilts. I also remember seeing women wearing system skirts and dresses that distorted their hips and butts, making them huge. Of course, now with mesh bodies, I see the giant behinds more often than not, but back then, before mesh bodies, people still would edit their shapes to fit clothes, system or prim.

In regard to mesh bodies ... the alpha slices on the huds are often are inadequate, taking away too much or not enough of the body underneath. So not all standard sized mesh will fit. Sometimes mesh clothing specifically made for a particular mesh body will not look right either, because the look of it can be modded somewhat, based on the underlying system shape. My Niramyth Aesthetic body is far smaller than most, and clothing designed for it tend to be very large round my waist while my bum will poke out the back.

When wearing a suit that covers the entire body, I notice many fellows are quite hung up on getting one for their particular body. however, assuming one does not have a mesh head as well, just taking off the body and putting a mesh suit on takes care of any such fit issues. Who cares what one's body looks like underneath if it is covered from neck to ankles? I have seen fellows with giant Niramyth bodies intent on wearing a suit and they look rather goonish.

My preference is for a system body with Ispachi feet and Slink hands, though I have become accustomed to the mesh body. However, I do not think I shall ever get a mesh head. I worked some years on getting my face just so, that cannot be replicated with a mesh head, even a Bento head, to which there are limitations. One friend of mine raved to another about how wonderful her bento head is, and how she can finally look like she did with her system head. On her strong recommendation another friend purchased a bento head and could not mod it anywhere close to her original face and was extremely disappointed. Other friends have gotten bento heads and no, they look nothing like what they used to ... and they say well, it takes some adjusting and one must settle and adjust and compromise. Actually, no. One does not, one makes a choice to do so in order to be au courant. However, despite all the brands and modifications and choices, there is a sameness to mesh heads, bento or not. I have a very good skin I have worn for over five years, and my face is unique to me. On the occasions I go out and about, people comment on how different I look from everyone around them ... different in a good way.

If someone wants help with a makeover, say someone who has had the same newbie skin and hair and eyes and shape for ten years, I suggest a better system shape, IKON system eyes, more contemporary, non flexi  hair, and skin before ever suggesting a mesh body. Mesh hands and feet would be next. It also depends on whether the person is going to spend much time naked or engaging in naughty activities. For people much into that sort of thing, I think a mesh body is better suited.

One issue with male mesh bodies is that, other than the Aesthetic, which I find to be far too gym rat muscle bound to be genuinely attractive, the other male mesh bodies all have a  feminine shape to them, with narrower shoulders and wider hips than is usually the case with male bodies. To my eye, they have an either "dad bod" or "twink" look to them. There are Bento heads, hands, ears, private parts (do not ask, they are rather hideous), but a Bento body that allowed more adjustments would be an improvement to the mesh bodies available now.

I take photos in SL, I build clocks and occasional silly items. I am far from expert regarding whether such is possible.

[Fionne Burleigh]

On 3/29/2017 at 1:39 PM, Chase01 said:

I dropped you a message in world so you should have my info there should you need it. The Maitreya body is probably the most popular. If you wanted an opinion—I'd look at either that one or Belleza has 3 models to choose from. The style of each body is how it carries your shape. I prefer a smaller, more petite frame and I just thought that Maitreya carried that shape more to my liking. In terms of features, both brands are pretty comparable for the most part, For product availability I think Maitreya has a bit of a lead in that regard.

 

 

 

Odd, but when I went ingame yesterday I didn't see any notice @Chase01.  I'm afraid I've been going into SL the past couple of days, having a currently hectic RL interupt and sometimes sitting ingame for hours at AFK.    I'll check again later though!  Oh, and I got a Maitreya body - and that had opened up a whole new list of questions.  LOL

[Love Zhaoying]

On 3/31/2017 at 8:06 PM, Blaise Glendevon said:

Are you high?

Not always relevant lol.

[Chase01]

@Fionne Burleigh I sent you another IM in world.

[tako Absent]

Yes, they will be extinct like the dinosaurs. You know, they really look like dinos like T-rex...ugly giant with short arms. 

[Chase01]

@tako AbsentYou know that issue isn't only prevalent with legacy avatars lol

[JamieThunder]

On 3/31/2017 at 8:06 PM, Blaise Glendevon said:

Are you high? Absolutely not. No one is being forced or coerced into adopting mesh bodies with the threat (or actuality) of violence and genocide. Get a grip.

My my,,Did I hit a nerve?? get a grip

[Teagan Tobias]

On 4/5/2017 at 0:03 PM, tako Absent said:

Yes, they will be extinct like the dinosaurs. You know, they really look like dinos like T-rex...ugly giant with short arms. 

LOL, ugly giant with short arms, someone needs to tell you about sliders. They work wonders the classic avatar, not so will with some of the mesh avatars {unless the demos are brain dead}. But thanks for the laugh.

And the classic avatar will be around to the very end and you can take that to the bank.