Skill Gaming Policy Thread

[Perrie Juran]

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Snugs McMasters wrote:

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:

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irihapeti wrote:

is some really well-designed AI programs that can create self-modifying executable code

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I have very fond memories of writing self modifying code on Dad's PDP-11 and on my Macintosh. People look at me funny when I suggest that as a way to solve thorny problems in real-time systems.

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Let me be the first to suggest that's not why people look at you funny.

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The real issue is can both of you pass the Turing test?

[Snugs McMasters]

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Perrie Juran wrote:

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Snugs McMasters wrote:

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:

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irihapeti wrote:

is some really well-designed AI programs that can create self-modifying executable code

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I have very fond memories of writing self modifying code on Dad's PDP-11 and on my Macintosh. People look at me funny when I suggest that as a way to solve thorny problems in real-time systems.

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Let me be the first to suggest that's not why people look at you funny.

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The real issue is can both of you pass the Turing test?

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I don't think I could pass it.

I just asked Maddy, who's downstairs.

She yelled back "Kobayashi Maru!".

[irihapeti]

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Temba wrote:

that is not a True AI in the definition of artificial intelligance i have given. a smart phone doesn't even fit the definition of a true AI, the HAL 9000 in space odessy is a great example of a true AI. the terminatore played by Arnold Swartzenegger is a good example of a true AI,  an lsl script made to simulate an AI function is NOT a true AI,

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Arnie has a engine (environment if you like). bounded by some language

Arnie cant modify the bounds of his environment. He can only modify his actions within the bounds. If he could go outside the bounds then he be a magician. Same Hal would be if he could go outside his bounds. Same a human being as well

in this case the engine is written in LSL. Arnie is written in APL the language of this AI. Within this bound Arnie can code modify his actions

 

[Madelaine McMasters]

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Temba wrote:

that is not a True AI in the definition of artificial intelligance i have given. a smart phone doesn't even fit the definition of a true AI, the HAL 9000 in space odessy is a great example of a true AI. the terminatore played by Arnold Swartzenegger is a good example of a true AI,  an lsl script made to simulate an AI function is NOT a true AI,

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I think HAL is a great example of what people think AI will be like. As the definition of intelligence is subjective, I think it'll be a while before we get a definitive declaration that something does it artificially. In fact, I've just had my ability to pass the Turing test questioned!

;-).

[irihapeti]

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:

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irihapeti wrote:

is some really well-designed AI programs that can create self-modifying executable code

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I have very fond memories of writing self modifying code on Dad's PDP-11 and on my Macintosh. People look at me funny when I suggest that as a way to solve thorny problems in real-time systems.

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have never understood why this isnt done more often. Given that they used to do it a lot back in the olden days on the metal. And is still doable today with higher-level language interpreters

maybe bc resources like memory and that got cheaper. So just chuck space at the problems

[Madelaine McMasters]

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irihapeti wrote:

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:

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irihapeti wrote:

is some really well-designed AI programs that can create self-modifying executable code

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I have very fond memories of writing self modifying code on Dad's PDP-11 and on my Macintosh. People look at me funny when I suggest that as a way to solve thorny problems in real-time systems.

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have never understood why this isnt done more often. Given that they used to do it a lot back in the olden days on the metal. And is still doable today with higher-level language interpreters

maybe bc resources like memory and that got cheaper. So just chuck space at the problems

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I can understand it. Self modifying code must be done in assembly language, which is difficult to write/debug even without the additional problem of self modification, which completely breaks the debugging tools that don't know anything about it. And modern operating systems often write-lock pages after code load using the memory management unit, so memory leaks don't wipe out programs.

As an embedded system developer, I grew up close to the "metal", and I love it there. But the siren song of high level languages is hard to resist. I think it's just fine that self-modifying code is largely forgotten. But I'll never forget the fun of doing it!

 

[Phil Deakins]

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Temba wrote:

wrong, that is nOT what a true AI is,  an if then statment is nothing more then a program a set of instructions, there is no AI in that, that is NOT the definiotion of a true AI, do these games, think? do they learn? do they formulate their own choises and opinions with oit the influince of the user? NO. a true, AI is a computer or machine that Thinks, learns, and makes it's own disitions with out the influince of the user. gaming machines are no where NEAR  that level and niether are a series of  if then statments. do your research.

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You missed the point. I was merely pointing out that if-then statements were not actual intelligence. I was not making any attempt at describing what artifical intelligence is. Sorry you misunderstood.

[LeonardoMyst]

It's too bad that I missed out on the games.

I put a cc on file so I could go to the skill game areas only to discover I live in one of the 10 states it's not allowed in.

 

One of my favorite areas on Playstation Home was the Casino. It had Blackjack, Poker, Roulette, Craps, Bingo, Slots and a few other attractions.

It did cost money to play. I think it was like 500 credits for a dollar or something like that.

But there was no cashing out. You were basically paying to play with no monetary reward. You could win more chips but they could only be used to play the games.

As for prizes, they had achievements. When you reached a certain level of each game, you'd be rewarded an item. Usually it was a piece of clothing, and most times promoting the casino. However, I did get a monocle and a rabbit in a hat. :-)

 

So, I guess it could also be looked as you were essentially buying inventory items that were given to you once you reached a certain requirement.

 

It's a shame that the more realistic gambling has made gaming for fun (with no money reward) more or less unpopular in SL.

I mean, if you have the option to win real cash then that will get more interest than winning prizes from leveling up.

[daisybloomer]

Not to derail this thread and the subject in the current posts, but those that want to read additional posts relating to the new Skill Gaming Policy and the new November 1st deadline can also look here:

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/General-Discussion-Forum/You-ve-Got-Till-November-1st/td-p/2834050

 

Original official LL blog positng on November 1st deadline:

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Featured-News/Update-to-The-Skill-Gaming-Application-Process/ba-p/2833570

 

[DrCyberPHD Hammerer]

Well I suppose I should thank LL for banning Tennessee from Games. I have rediscovered how much fun On Line Poker is. and uhhhh Is that LEGAL in Tennessee? :matte-motes-agape: Why YES it IS > THANK YOU LINDEN LABS . 

[Dresden Ceriano]

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DrCyberPHD Hammerer wrote:

Well I suppose I should thank LL for banning Tennessee from Games. I have rediscovered how much fun On Line Poker is. and uhhhh Is that LEGAL in Tennessee? :matte-motes-agape: Why YES it IS > THANK YOU LINDEN LABS . 

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It seems as though Tennessee online gambling laws are much like those of the state where I live... Louisiana.  While it's perfectly legal for people in both states to play poker online, it's not at all legal to operate a business which offers online poker in either state.  I can only imagine this was the reason LL included them on the list of prohibited states.  As to why they chose that route, your guess is as good as mine.

...Dres

[Innula Zenovka]

Are people required to obtain gaming licences from Louisiana or Tennesee before offering online gaming to residents of those states?   That might be it.

To my mind, people are forgetting half the story when they say, "But it's legal for me to gamble where I live."   I mean, in the UK, where I live, it's legal for me to gamble online or in a casino or at a bookmaker's shop.   However, it's certainly not legal for me to open a casino or a betting shop or an online gambling site without obtaining the necessary licences, and neither PayPal nor any of my credit cards would extend merchant facilities to any site that wasn't properly licenced.

I think what people mean is, "But it's legal for me to gamble somewhere my state regards as a properly licenced and regulated site," which probably doesn't apply to anywhere in SL.

[Perrie Juran]

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DrCyberPHD Hammerer wrote:

Well I suppose I should thank LL for banning Tennessee from Games. I have rediscovered how much fun On Line Poker is. and uhhhh Is that LEGAL in Tennessee? :matte-motes-agape: Why YES it IS > THANK YOU LINDEN LABS . 

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I previously had a short discussion about Tennessee with someone in the Forum but I don't remember if it was you. 

Just because you found some sites you can play does not necesarily mean it is legal.  What it means that some sites have decided to take the risk.  And you are taking a risk also.

http://www.legaluspokersites.com/state-laws/tennessee/

[Dresden Ceriano]

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

Are people required to obtain gaming licences from Louisiana or Tennesee before offering online gaming to residents of those states?   That might be it.

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I don't know.  When this policy was first announced, I was slightly curious as to why Louisiana was prohibited, so I Googled it.  Therefore, I don't really remember the specifics of what I read back then and, when I Googled Tennessee online gaming laws today, the very little I read about them seemed similar to what I do remember about Louisiana.  I honestly don't know how all that works.  It could be that LL decided to just include any state that has any restriction on it whatsoever.

...Dres

[Perrie Juran]

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Dresden Ceriano wrote:

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

Are people required to obtain gaming licences from Louisiana or Tennesee before offering online gaming to residents of those states?   That might be it.

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I don't know.  When this policy was first announced, I was slightly curious as to why Louisiana was prohibited, so I Googled it.  Therefore, I don't really remember the specifics of what I read back then and, when I Googled Tennessee online gaming laws today, the very little I read about them seemed similar to what I do remember about Louisiana.  I honestly don't know how all that works.  It could be that LL decided to just include any state that has any restriction on it whatsoever.

...Dres

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Well we are left with the distinct impression that LL is erring on the side of caution.

Here are a few quotes from the Attorney from the SLBA about the whole situation:

 

00:19: So, gambling is betting, wagering something of value, money, on a contest, sporting event, game of chance. So it’s regulated by state law, for the most part; there’s a couple of Federal laws, but for the most part, we’re looking at state law.

0036: Gaming is playing skilled games that require skill or a player’s control of the game, and some states permit betting, wagering on skill-based games, other states do not. There’s a whole list of states that do not. And even within that, there’s a whole list of different hierarchies of what kinds of skilled-based games might be allowed and what kinds might not be allowed. Some states allow social betting, some states don’t allow social betting; some states allow betting if it’s regulated by the state, and no betting if it’s not regulated by the state. And some states define their games differently; in some states poker is a game of skill, in some states poker is a game of chance. [it's] completely up to the state.

01:40: What’s illegal gambling-wise? It depends, because gambling is regulated by state law. So a game operator is not allowed to take money in any form, this includes Linden Dollars, for participation in unlawful Internet gambling.

02:01: So this means that if you are a game operator, it’s your job to know the laws of the state the player is in. It’s not the player’s job to tell you, “oh, it’s illegal for me to be here.” It’s your job; the burden is on you.  [My emphasis....this one is very important].

Question: From my understanding, the wire act and case-law involving it would consider any money paid into something where by the amount that can be paid out increases by the number of players would be considered a BET rather than an entrance fee?

09:55: It looks like my comment about entrance fees and bets has confused a lot of people. Let me back up. A couple of states have had that discussion. This is something that would have to be a state-by-state evaluation. don’t let that throw you off, and maybe I shouldn’t even have mentioned it. What you have to look at is not whether a state has made that determination, you’ve got to look at Linden Lab’s policy.

10:25: Linden Lab right now is your state. The Linden Lab policy is all that matters, and if Linden Lab makes a determination about entrance fees and what not, that’s what matters more than Arizona state law

10:38: So back up a little bit about the entrance fee question. You law, as far as your concerned, is the Skill Gaming policy.

 

 

[Innula Zenovka]

I can see why people find it annoying, but I can equally well see why LL want to play it really safe.   If there's any question at all that allowing residents of a particular state onto Skill Gaming sims might cause legal difficulties for LL, then it really does make sense for LL to err on the side of caution.

[Perrie Juran]

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

I can see why people find it annoying, but I can equally well see why LL want to play it really safe.   If there's any question at all that allowing residents of a particular state onto Skill Gaming sims might cause legal difficulties for LL, then it really does make sense for LL to err on the side of caution.

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Some of the stupity I will really blame on the Lawmakers.

In one state I was reading about for instance Poker is not illegal.  But soliciting someone to play is.  So if I set up a poker game I can not ask anyone if they'd like to play.  But if you ask if you can join the game it is perfectly legal.

In my own state there are some activities that are illegal but the law does not provide any penalties if you break it!  

So it can get seriously stupid trying to decipher all of this. 

 

[rose20211488303848]

personally i hate this skill gaming bull. there no way to sugar coat it.

its only for the premium peeps, yes i enjoy playing games like no devil but  really I don't trust LL for even a second with billing info even less with credit card info.

And im pretty sure other people would agree with me LL has done some questionable things in the past. But this is just too much I've read the hole skill gaming policy and honestly heads well roll for it,  im not saying i well do any thing but others well. Its taking away one freedom that most people on sl enjoyed doing once in a while.

I've seen similar policy's  but only for the use of us or foreign currency or "Real money" as some put it...

 in most of my life i've never seen a policy for virtual currency if  LL wants to abide by skill gaming in some states fine but leave the rest of the world out of it.

yes i no you can buy L with real money  but none the less its still VIRTUAL CURRENCY . Also meaning once its in the game you cant get it back.

those are my thoughts and feelings and everyone is entitled to the own words even if  it means being harsh

have a good day or night  :heart:

[irihapeti]

which law in your country do you think it would be appropriate for LL to break so that you can gamble ??

[Phil Deakins]

There are a number of things is your post that are wrong, and I'm not talking about the atrocious spelling. I'll just mention a couple of them.

Where on earth do you get the idea that most people in SL sometimes gamble? I think you're totally wrong about that.

What on earth makes you think that, when L$ have been bought with real money ("when it's in the game"), you can't get it back? You are totally wrong about that too.

[Coby Foden]

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rose2021 wrote:

its only for the premium peeps,

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It's not only for "premium peeps". Anybody can play the skilled games if they meet the requirements stated in the policy. Premium membership is not required.

[Perrie Juran]

The more I read complaints the more befudled I am getting.

What is so difficult for people to understand that there are laws LL has to comply with?

And that because of the complexity and variety of the laws they need a Policy that may in some cases appear to be stricter than the Laws.

What is so hard about this?

[Rae Bluxome]

I apologize if my question has already been answered, I don't have time to wade through 128 pages of this thread.

We have a Pentadee table in our private home (Adult region) and it is set not to charge or pay out. Are we affected by this new policy? Is someone going to seize our table on November 1st?

 

 

[Amethyst Jetaime]

If the table does NOT have a pay to play option you are legal.

If the table has an option to pay to play, even if you have it set for free to play, it is illegal even though it is in a private home.  The creator must be licensed to create skill games, the game itself must be licensed  and located on a gaming sim and the owner must be licensed as an operator.

On November 1, LL will start enforcing the policy.  They may remove it, and possibly suspend or ban your account if your game is illegal and you are not a licensed operator.  No one knows how they will go about enforcing the policy.  They could just do it by responding to an AR, or they could be actively looking for illegal games on the grid. 

If I were you I wouldn't take a chance if the table has a pay to play option.  I would remove it from your home.  You may want to contact the creator to see if they have updated the card table and removed the pay to play option from it.  Whether the update will be free or not is up to the creator.

[Dillon Levenque]

I'd never heard of Pentadee but since you asked so reasonably (there've been some rather unreasonable rants in this thread) I decided to take a quick look.

You're in luck. It's made by the same company that makes Greedy Greedy, and they do have an upgraded version that can NOT be set for 'pay to play' and thus avoids coming under the Skill Gaming rules. They also state that upgrades are free to anyone who owns a table. The directions for getting all that done are in this wiki: http://karstenrutledge.com/wiki/index.php?title=Pentadee .

ps: That company probably writes the clearest and most complete explanations and instructions I've ever seen from any SL creator or merchant. I think I should buy something from them just to support their work.