What Now?

[Melita Magic]

What does everyone plan to do in reaction to the new TOS about only using Lindex?

I always used only Lindex, but I've never made decisions solely on what only affects me directly.

One could also say this affects all of us directly, since if a large portion of the Second Life citizenship, members, players, residents, whatever you'd like to call them, cannot get $L to spend, the economy will tank. The economy would tank in that case, even harder than it already has (due to the real life economy.)

Does anyone know whether Linden Lab has plans to institute a way for people who cannot use credit cards or PayPal, to get Lindens, within the next thirty days?

Because I am seriously contemplating selling or renting all my land, and selling as many other things as I can as well. The only remaining question would be, how to also scale back membership without losing my avatar entirely. 

I don't want to delete my account in case things drastically change in future. But, I tend to go by intuition, and my intuition has a sinking feeling this time.

How about you? What now?

[Sonja Dominica]

Hi Melita,

I'm one of those who "cannot use credit cards or PayPal, to get Lindens". I am an employed adult, and have a grown up daughter, however my circumstances prevent me from using a credit card or PayPal.  SL was my little bit of freedom and I feel as though the rug has been swiped from under me.  Previously I used Exchanges such as Bulido and Virwox, but these are no longer serving SL residents due to LL's change in ToS.

My impression is that LL doesn't give a toss about individuals such as myself.  It's a shame, I estimate I've spent over £500 in the past 2 years in SL.  Still, I guess I'm just a second-class resident in LL's eyes.

I went to browse Marketplace earlier, but what's the point? I can't say I'll leave SL, I have made some very real friends here. I guess some will move to other Sims/Grids. I don't know whether I can start all over again.  All I can say right now is that I feel quite depressed about the whole thing.

Yours, second-class,second-life resident, Sonja Dominica

[ImaTest1488314069]

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Melita Magic wrote:

 

How about you? What now?

---

 

Nothing changes for me. I'll live my slife the way I have since the beginning.

I also happen to believe that the sheer number of people who won't be able to buy, or sell, $L at all, is smaller than some might be trying to make people believe. Not that even a small number is a good thing.  I have a feeling we're going to see that not nearly as many people are directly affected as some are saying, and therefore, won't leave. But I'll sit back and take a wait and see approach. I did find it funny one of the people I saw complaining about now not being able to get lindens, doesn't buy them in the first place and never has. I'd rather hope that person is alone in that, but I'm smart enough to know they're not. People do tend to get worked up over things they find as an injustice or wrongdoing. Even if it doesn't have any impact on them at all.

I don't know if the lab does or will have any plans in place for those really affected, or not. Part of my wait and see approach. And it's not nearly as unfeeling or abrasive as it sounds. It's not that I don't give a fig about others, or things that don't directly affect me. It's that I believe the issue isn't, or I should say, won't be, as bad. No one can possibly know with any amount of certainty, yet, though.

[Ceka Cianci]

i can't remember all the times LL has made moves that hurt the econemy..

 

one day they will hit it too hard..

 

i hope they have a way for those users to  buy lindens or come up with something..

it's kind of stupid to just not let them have a way to buy lindens..

they need to adjust something..

 

i don't care about the cash out delay with lindex..that's not really a big issue..

it's the people that went to those other places that could not buy them on lindex that will be the hit..

who wants to come here and not be able to spend if you were spending money on things before this change..

now they have to be broke..

i wouldn't stick around either if i didn't have the freedom to get money in a world that if you want to buy cool things you have to have money for them..

 

it's a shame they had to make the change because of the stupid laws..i just hope they are working on a way to keep thier customers..

because lets face it..thier numbers are not what they used to be..and a lot of it is because of hard changes like this that hit users pretty hard in good sized numbers..

 

i'm not sure how many of those they have left in them..but i doubt it's many..

 

for myself all i have ever used was lindex..

when i buy i just buy from the viewer button..i've never bought  by looking for the best deals or anything..i'm usualy just shopping and want to get my stuff..

so it's click click cha ching for me and i'm off to the rodeo! lol

 

[Caitlin Tobias]

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 How about you? What now?

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About me? Nothing changes for me personally - as in I have never used another exchange than Lindex -  and I will continue to do as I am doing now.

 

[Jenni Darkwatch]

I've only ever used the Lindex myself, though I know of one workaround for some people:

If you have a good, trustworthy friend in LL who can use the Lindex, send them the RL money and have them convert it to L$ and vice versa. As long as you avoid international wire transfers you're good. There's a few ways to do that without getting hit with ludicrous bank fees.

[Glory Takashi]

All the exchanges have to do to comply is set it up like it used to be with SLxchange/Xstreet. You could send the money directly to the avatar bot that handled all the exchanges and completely bypass any atm.

Several of LLs shortsited restrictions ago I limited my time spent in SL so it's really not going to hurt me if I have to wait a few days though I do not like it.

[Zag Magic]

Hello Melita What now you ask. Normally I stay very far away from the forums, but of late I have been reading here and on SLU, and a few blogs to try and get a grip on what I should do. I am in the EU and seems we all have different ways of how to do things, from person to person, country to country, all is very different, even in same country there are different states, we have different laws and things, much like the USA. So is hard to say something, when right behind you another person says this isnt so. Though for me I cannot use the Lindex, nor my credit card, not PayPal, or nothing like this.

 

I have always used the Eldex, and for whatever reason, my bank accepted and agreed this was the way to go. Maybe as they are German, and work the same as my bank ( bank transfers ), they understood each other. No problems ever, all was fine. To use a CC or PayPal involves many steps, different charges, conversions of money, with charges also.. and on and on, and must do this each month I believe. Very different than the five or ten minutes on the internet that it took just last week. 

 

For me ( my avatar in SL isnt Zag, and I have been in SL since 06 ) ... for me this is a game changer.

 

I haven't made anything more, nor do I plan to. No more mesh for me. My land will go as my tier won't get payed. I am just letting it go. This day I have been clearing things in preparations for this. The lack of responce from LL leads me to think its the right thing to do. In a way, I must thank LL. For I would have continued to work and build and spend, even though people constantly say to me that my work here is so good, yet I get next to no pay. But I had this dream, as we do in here, this wonderful sharing community feeling, like we made something, and we have.

 

Second Life is for me, is like an experience with the USA, most here are from the USA, and so it has this feel. So the way LL does things, I think it must be the USA way. Whether this is correct or not, it is my feeling. It is possible most people are used to this manor of treatment and if things still work for them, all is fine, even while thier neighbors are in turmoil. This is the sad part, for if they close down on so many of us, don't you think they will on you as well. When LL bought Xstreet, it was hard to relist then, as you could just feel the changes and knew things wouldn't get back to as good as before, and they haven't. When mesh finally got on the market, something was different also, as a few sellers-creators had changed the way it was done, writing thier own TOS and offering full perm mesh complete ready to sell... but with such restirictions, and I thought it odd, I asked them straight out then if they worked for LL and should I even continue ? As it seemed that soon the market would be a closed system. This was just my feeling, and I still think this way. Cashing out altogether may end soon, for everyone, as the game has changed. 

 

So for all who are not affected by the TOS changes, or think they are not, or don't see it this way, that's alright by me. For me, is time to stop working for SL-LL and start on a new path; one clear, one I know the ways of, no surprizes, no tricks, no sudden pulling of the plug, my way is forward, and my experience in both worlds is ripe. Be well, and make your own choices, before others make them for you. Ciao/Waves

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Lucretia Brandenburg]

It would be nice if LL would update the Lindex to support the use of prepaid cards and bank transfers. That being said, my impression is that the number of people who cannot use Lindex is far smaller than the number who do not want to use it. For the small number who absolutely cannot use Lindex, I do hope LL comes up with a way to make it work for them.

 I have seen people complaining about the fact that Lindex deals in USD rather than Euros or other currency, so they don't know how much they're actually withdrawing in RL currency. Currency converting websites abound, it is easy enough to figure that out. Do the TPE charge VAT? I can understand wanting to avoid additional taxes if buying and selling L is something someone does quite often.  

Much of what I have read from those who use TPE is that they do not want a verified PayPal account because they do not want it linked to their bank account, nor do they want credit card information on file with LL.

 I don't know about bank fees in other countries. When I wanted to get my paypal account verified,  I opened a free checking account with a miminum deposit and used that checking account for verification. However, having a savings account not linked to one's checking account is also another option. Applying for one of the PayPal credit cards is another way to be verified.  PayPal is available in scores of countries.  https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_display-approved-signup-countries-outside  .  Regarding the long time pending the transfer of funds for which PayPal is well known, If you have a PayPal credit card, pending money in the account can be transferred to the credit card immediately without the long wait.  

As for the other option of using a credit card and linking it to an SL account ... do banks in other countries have VISA and MC ATM cards that can be used as either a debit card or credit card? While bank transfers don't work with Lindex, those credit cards do. Once again, depending on where someone is in RL, there may be the option of opening a free checking account or keeping limited funds in an account for use in SL.

There are ways of limiting risk in case of accounts being hacked ... security seems to be the major issue with those who don't want to use PayPal or a credit card.

If SL is important enough to get worked up over changes in the TOS, is it important enough to figure out a way to use Lindex?  As with any changes in the TOS that are swiftly followed by strident complaints, I believe the number of people who are genuinely affected adversely (meaning there is absolutely no way at all  for them to purchase or sell Lindens now) to be smaller than the initial uproar suggests. Inconvenient yes. A bother? Yes. Ruining someone's SL? For the majority of those using TPE who can use Lindex but choose not to use it, allowing this to ruin their SL is their choice.

 

[Perrie Juran]

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Zag Magic wrote:

 

So for all who are not affected by the TOS changes, or think they are not, or don't see it this way, that's alright by me. For me, is time to stop working for SL-LL and start on a new path; one clear, one I know the ways of, no surprizes, no tricks, no sudden pulling of the plug, my way is forward, and my experience in both worlds is ripe. Be well, and make your own choices, before others make them for you. Ciao/Waves

 

 

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I can only speak for myself.  I am from the USA and I am not happy with this.  And I am saddenned that any find their enjoyment of SL limited by it.

I think I know why this change has been made but in the end all I have are guesses.

 

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Zag Magic wrote:

But I had this dream, as we do in here, this wonderful sharing community feeling, like we made something, and we have.

 

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We are still a community.  That transcends any stupidity LL may do.

Wis you the best.

[Ciaran Laval]

The issue with the USD dollar changes from country to country and bank to bank. Some accounts incur high fees for converting different currencies, currency converting websites, plus bank fees, plus the fact that the rate you get from Paypal probably isn't the rate you see on the currency converting website yadda yadda yadda, but I think people could deal with that, you get used to it.

The simple fact of the matter is that the LindeX simply isn't competitive enough, if it were, there would be a lot less rumbling about it. the TPE's showed Linden Lab how it can be done, I won't hold my breath waiting to see if LL respond to the excellent services some TPE's offered.

Paypal is available in scores of countries, but not all countries get the same service as say the USA or the UK, some of them can't withdraw to a local bank account, some can only withdraw to certain credit cards. There are alternative payment methods, the TPE's proved that, why can't the LindeX embrace some of the alternatives to Paypal?

[Perrie Juran]

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Ciaran Laval wrote:

The issue with the USD dollar changes from country to country and bank to bank. Some accounts incur high fees for converting different currencies, currency converting websites, plus bank fees, plus the fact that the rate you get from Paypal probably isn't the rate you see on the currency converting website yadda yadda yadda, but I think people could deal with that, you get used to it.

 

The simple fact of the matter is that the LindeX simply isn't competitive enough, if it were, there would be a lot less rumbling about it. the TPE's showed Linden Lab how it can be done, I won't hold my breath waiting to see if LL respond to the excellent services some TPE's offered.

Paypal is available in scores of countries, but not all countries get the same service as say the USA or the UK, some of them can't withdraw to a local bank account, some can only withdraw to certain credit cards. There are alternative payment methods, the TPE's proved that, why can't the LindeX embrace some of the alternatives to Paypal?

---

I've no doubt that LL could do things better. 

But one thing the TPE's did was take a higher level of risk than LL has been willing to and may in some circumstances not be able to take. 

[Madeliefste Oh]

What now?

I just go on with what I was doing in SL.

I don't think people will leave in large numbers. A small minority of the residents will leave SL or stop participating in the economy. Most people will start using the Lindex  (most of them will discover that they get a better rate at Lindex then at the TPE), others will be able to get money in and out SL with get a little help from a friend, and there will arise a small black market where L$ are traded. 

The world will go on,. People get used to the new way of buying and selling L$, and within a half year everbody (except the former exchange owners) is forgotten about third party exchanges.

[Czari Zenovka]

Hi Melita

Nothing changes for me.  I use the bank debit card connected to my free checking account to purchase Lindens on the Lindex.  I also have a PayPal account (also connected to the same checking account) but have never used it for SL since I use the debit card directly.

I used Virwox one time when I actually made a few lindens to cash out, and the cash out *was* immediate, but that was one time in 6 years.  What I earn in SL basically "supports" me in SL but, especially lately, I still have to put approximately $10.00 USD/mo. into SL for my parcel rent, but that is still less than a month playing an MMORPG so I consider it my entertainment expense.

Apparently the main issue is for those in other countries who, for some reason, cannot or do not wish to use a CC or Paypal.  I feel very badly for them; I do know people in Europe, however, for whom this isn't an issue so it seems dependent on each country and/or province, state, etc. within the country.

This reminds me of when SL began charging VAT for those in countries who have VAT.  Some people sold off land and/or left SL when that happened.  My landlord at the time was European and sold off his land.  My current landlord is from England; will ask him how or if this affects him in SL.

DEFINITELY don't delete your account, Melita.  At worst if you want to sell off your land you can downgrade to a Basic account and rent land if you wish.  A Basic account does not get deleted.  You could leave SL and return in a year and have your inventory intact.

With the state the world, including the US, is in economically as well as geo-political upheaval all over the place, imo nothing is "certain" from day to day.  One of my favorite talk show hosts said during times like this the best we can do is "tend our own gardens." (That is a quote from someone - I need to look that up.)  I am the worrying type, but since I have taken the stance of "tending my own garden" (this does not mean being selfish; but rather, do what one can within their own sphere of influence), I have felt a lot calmer. 

I'm personally more irritated with the plethora of changes this year in SL that have come one on the heels of another.  I'm not a fan of mesh, pathfinding, nor DD.  *Puts on flame retardant clothing.*  As my high school history teacher used to say, "It all depends on whose ox is being gored."

Edit: Typo

[Lucretia Brandenburg]

Thank you for clarifying that, I was under the impression that it is pricier to use PayPal in some places, just not sure of the details. And yes, it would be GREAT if LL would upgrade Lindex to accept more payment methods.

[Trinity Yazimoto]

imho its a bit early to decide anything.

what we have for now is only guess, misinformation from LL and some rumors....

LL said the TOS will be effective really after 30 days.. maybe during this time they plan to make some improvement to lindex... 

maybe they will even step back and find a way to make an agreement with TPE

maybe pp will finally find a way to deal with Lindex...

maybe, as some other said, finally the pp who wont really be able wont be so numerous (it will be still a sadness for them to leave and for us to see them leave)

but there are too much "maybe" for knowing anything for now and above all, for making any decision...

For me it wont change a lot , since i keep my sl income within sl and i use lindex... but on another hand i really hope my estate manager wont leave, bec i wouldnt like to be forced to leave my land...

and anyway... whatever the level of damage we could have...if the sl economy is deeply harmed we will all be harmed...

but for now... its too much early for knowing... we can only guess and this is not a good way for taking decision such these ones...

[Madeliefste Oh]

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Trinity Yazimoto wrote:

 

maybe, as some other said, finally the pp who wont really be able wont be so numerous (it will be still a sadness for them to leave and for us to see them leave)

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Ofcourse, Trinity, for every individual who is forced to leave because of this change it is very sad. And for the ones who love them, it can be a personal drama as well. I really feel sorry for the people who don't have a single way left to get money in or out SL.

But what is more important to most people? Money or friends? Why did the residents of SL not move massively to worlds like IW or Aviantion where the land is less then a quarter of the price you pay in SL? Because their friends did not move with them (and, in a wider range: their favorite fashion designers or favorite singers or their favorite gaming sim did not move with them). For me this points out that friends, social life and community is much more important then money for the majority of SL residents.

People who can no longer buy or sell money in an easy way might be angry, and play with the thought to leave SL, but in the end in many cases the friendship will win. Friends will start to help each other when someone is really stuck with getting money in or out SL.

I think that in the total of the economy there will not be much difference. Some people who did spend money will leave or just stop spending, but on the other side of the balance, the profit that those exchange services made, will mainly return back in the economy.

Most people have a fixed amount they want to spend each month for their hobby. It is from those budgets that exchange services took their profit. Now the exchange services are gone, that profit will be in the hand of customers, who end up with more L$ to spend. It are small margins per indivual, but in a large amount in the whole.

 

[Pamela Galli]

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Madeliefste Oh wrote:

The world will go on,. People get used to the new way of buying and selling L$, and within a half year everbody (except the former exchange owners) is forgotten about third party exchanges.

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Yes if you spend much time in the merchant forum or inworld group, there is always a small group of people who sell things who say they are going to quit and/or close their marketplace and/or inworld stores, and stop paying tier. And I suppose some do. I just know it doesn't seem to have affected my business. Who knows? 

 

I have noticed this -- those who make such threats often have a very small or no marketplace store. You don't see someone with a lot invested in his business threatening to leave over this change in TOS.

[Trinity Yazimoto]

well Madeliefste, i do agree with you and you say it better than i could do with my poor english...

For me, money in sl is really the last thing important... but, i have tier to pay.. and no tier, no land. No land, no my lovely garden, no my lovely skybox and no my mainstore... No my mainstore, well no more business or at least not same pleasure... No my skybox, no more refuge... 

Well, i dont pay no mind to my sl incomes.. i never cash them out, and i keep them to help for my tier and my shopping... i still buy for 50 € montly of l$ for completing my budget.

So well, indeed, i could live my sl without even 1 l$, but it wouldnt be the same... im not interested by sl sex, rp, or whatever famous activities.. What i like is dresssing my avi, make pics and create clothes.... i need a lil money for this... not a lot but still... so if one day i cant buy any l$ i bet it will make a difference for me..

of course, i see a lot of merchants in the forum who seems to create only for money... its not my case.. i do it for my pleasure, and all my customers will tell you, i make more than often gifts... im not runing after money... but still... sl with 0 l$ will be  prob less interesting for me....

i wont tell you that friends are less important.. of course not... those who know me know it well... but i have diff way to have contact with my friends... so SL or not, my friends will remain my friends... no way for this will change...

So well, one in one, i do agree with you... but i still understand those who want to leave... and i find this sad...

And well, about the ammount of pp who will leave, as i said, we can only guess but we dont know.. i hope you are right, and that they will be only a few... but we cant tell now... ive already heard about a beautifull sim that will close in one or 2 week, another famous skin store that close in the 23th... Of course, we could say that there will still remain a lot.. but maybe sl wont be attractive at the same level... idk

for now, all that i say, is that pp shouldnt panic... we dont know anything about tomorow.. and i think it should be more wise to wait at least the end of the 30 days before taking any decision... 

but of course, for me, i dont think things will change, im not about to leave at all lol....

[Amethyst Jetaime]

It does not effect me personally at all as I have never used TPE's due to the risk involved not only due to fraud but because of exactly what has happened now. TPE's have always been allowed to exist at LL's pleasure and so there was always a big risk that they would be shut down not only because LL could just ban them for their own reasons, but due to banking regulations changes like what has now happened.

I understand that it will have a large impact on some people and they are angry.  A lot are vowing in their anger to leave SL now, and some may.  But I don't think they all or even the majority will.  Interestingly the uproar seems to mostly come from Europeans and a few from South America.  I haven't heard anyone outside of these two groups complain much.

PayPal is available in all countries except a few rogue states.  I do realize some may not qualify for a credit card to verify their accounts, but a lot don't in the US either.  A think a number of people have just made the personal choice for one reason or another that they won't do business with Paypal or give CC info to LL, because I know lots of Europeans from various countries that have payment information on file.  In the end I think once anger cools down a lot of these people may change their minds instead of leaving SL.

Some may stay and either not spend any money or get jobs or figure out a way to earn L's. 

Hopefully LL will expand their payment options.  They very well may be in the process of doing this, but setting up accounts with foreign payment services I am sure is complicated due to regulations and doesn't happen overnight so they probably won't announce anything until its a done deal.  Since I don't know anything about regulations in other countries it may be that they have to have a physical presence their which would probably be a deal breaker.

[Trinity Yazimoto]

ah i wanted to add also that the forum is not representative of the whole sl.. but we all know this...

i have almost 180 contacts in my friend list +735 persons in my group for my brand and i see a lot of pp coming into my store too... i can say that the percentage of the pp among them who knows about the TPE mess are even less than 1%...

 a lot doesnt even know about TPE existence... a lot doesnt even know what changed in the TOS, they just checked again the box and logged again... So yes... i think there is here a lot of fire for pretty nothing....

Even for SSB, i still have daily to explain what it is... pp have updated their viewer without even knowing about it....

So well, just guesses still.... but i can figure why LL isnt scared at all about what is happening... The big rant seems to only happen here in the forum and nowhere else...Finally maybe the purpose of the existence of the forum itself  is only to be a outlet room lol... and in this case, it does pretty well its job.

[Dillon Levenque]

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Trinity Yazimoto wrote:

So well, just guesses still.... but i can figure why LL isnt scared at all about what is happening... The big rant seems to only happen here in the forum and nowhere else...Finally maybe the purpose of the existence of the forum itself  is only to be a outlet room lol... and in this case, it does pretty well its job.

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It's a good thing they pad the walls and don't leave stuff lying around for us to throw. There has been world-class ranting in here this week.:smileyhappy:

[Perrie Juran]

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Dillon Levenque wrote:

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Trinity Yazimoto wrote:

So well, just guesses still.... but i can figure why LL isnt scared at all about what is happening... The big rant seems to only happen here in the forum and nowhere else...Finally maybe the purpose of the existence of the forum itself  is only to be a outlet room lol... and in this case, it does pretty well its job.

---

 

It's a good thing they pad the walls and don't leave stuff lying around for us to throw. There has been world-class ranting in here this week.:smileyhappy:

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You must not have been around this Morning.

They had all the doors locked.

"[Posted 8:10 am PDT, 10 May 2013] Some of our web services, such as the Knowledge Base, Blogs, and Forums, are currently undergoing maintenance. During this time these services may be unavailable. Please monitor this blog for additional updates"

[Madeliefste Oh]

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Trinity Yazimoto wrote:

 

Well, i dont pay no mind to my sl incomes.. i never cash them out, and i keep them to help for my tier and my shopping... i still buy for 50 € montly of l$ for completing my budget.

So well, indeed, i could live my sl without even 1 l$, but it wouldnt be the same... im not interested by sl sex, rp, or whatever famous activities.. 

What i like is dresssing my avi, make pics and create clothes.... i need a lil money for this... not a lot but still... so if one day i cant buy any l$ i bet it will make a difference for me..

---

People are creative. When your second life is important to you, and you simply need the money for tier or buying goods, you will find a way to work something out.. 

When you have a good friend that you really trust, and don't mind to exchange rl identity, it's not hard to find a construction. For example when you are very close with your landlord, you can make a deal to pay the rent in usd or euro's from your bank account, you can pay him a bit more then the rent price, and he can pay you back the difference in L$.

It's not ideal... but when you have no choice, friends are the best people to depend on.

 

[Trinity Yazimoto]

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Perrie Juran wrote:

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Dillon Levenque wrote:

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Trinity Yazimoto wrote:

So well, just guesses still.... but i can figure why LL isnt scared at all about what is happening... The big rant seems to only happen here in the forum and nowhere else...Finally maybe the purpose of the existence of the forum itself  is only to be a outlet room lol... and in this case, it does pretty well its job.

---

 

It's a good thing they pad the walls and don't leave stuff lying around for us to throw. There has been world-class ranting in here this week.:smileyhappy:

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You must not have been around this Morning.

They had all the doors locked.

"[Posted 8:10 am PDT, 10 May 2013] Some of our web services, such as the Knowledge Base, Blogs, and Forums, are currently undergoing maintenance. During this time these services may be unavailable. Please monitor this blog for additional updates"

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lol, it was afternoon for me, around 5 pm.. and yes i was around.. it forced me to focus only on my rl work lol...not cool at all ! lmao .:smileywink: