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Couldbe Yue wrote:


Sassy Romano wrote:


TiberiusPaladin Raynier wrote:

Well as sound as this idea is, i personally disagree with this new beta, what ahppenes when I build stuff and then it gets "returned"? Will I have to deal with those thousands of items cluttering my inventory?

Yes.  They will be in your Received Items along with everything else, waiting for you to sort them.

 

are you sure?  that makes absolutely no sense whatsover - even applying LL standards

From the wiki page at http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/ReceivedItemsBetaTesting#Examples_of_what_goes_into_Received_items

Examples of what goes into Received items

  • Anything new to your inventory that you Take or Take Copy.
  • Anything you rezzed in someone else's parcel and they have Returned.
  • Inventory offers from other users.
  • Inventory from scripted objects.
  • Marketplace purchased items.

How are you liking it now Couldbe? :)

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Couldbe Yue wrote:

perhaps I'm just feeling contrary today but I like the idea of a received items folder.  I used to hate it when I'd get LMs, notecards etc and they'd all go into different folders.  Recent items tab helps at the time I'm out and about but if I don't want to deal with it straight away they get lost.  So to me a recieved items folder means I have everything tucked away to nag me to deal with.

That's assuming that it's only going to be for stuff that comes from everyone but me.  I want all my stuff to go back to the folder it came from.

And that's what is screaming out at me about this new Received Items folder feature; it
will
nag
at us to keep our inventories sorted regularly. 

People who are upset about it the most, are probably the ones who have most coming into their inventories on a daily basis, and it's hard enough to keep on top of everything. 

Like you say, when you get LMs, notecards, textures, with a box of stuff, it automatically goes into the LMs, notecards, textures, etc., folders. With this new Received Items folder, it means we have to elect to move those items into their appropriate folders, but it's more probable that we will delete more rather than move it - or at least that's what LL are hoping.  All our inventory is clutter on their asset servers.


I want my SL to be about fun, not chores, and as I flit between SL viewers and TPVs, this might confuse me even more, rather than urge me to be more tidy with my stuff.

There should have been a cross-section of the community involved in the devising of this feature, rather than people who may only have modest inventories, due to lack of inworld activity and purchasing.


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Dart....

The ONLY reason that an email INBOX has the ability to work effectively vs the disaster that this LL Received folder doesnt have a hint of:  Advanced tagging, filtering, sorting, item categorizations that can be applied to the inbox in order to keep it somewhat structured:

An outlook Inbox (and others as well) has:

 

  1. Multiple Columns that categorize each item in the mailbox (to, from, size, attachments, urgency, confidential, date received, etc.)
  2. Because of point #1, the inbox can be sorted by any of these fields which helps maintenance and allows me to grab a batch of common emails and drag them to another folder
  3. Filtering based on point #1
  4. I can also apply inbound rules on items coming into the inbox (i.e. if email is from Dart then send to my "critical must read" emails folder)

And despite ALL these advanced filters which the LL folder has NONE OF.... you all can likely provide countless examples of ppl that inboxes with 1000's of emails.

So... if LL were to have released a NEW RECEIVED FOLDER with all the capabilities of what most email clients have, I might have been more excited.  They Didnt.

I suspect that the LL DD Developers has no way of creating a MP RECEIVED folder that could only receive purchased items from the MP site... so they turned a limitation into a proposed cool feature.  Lets hope that is the reason because the alternative is that LL came up with this stupid idea all on their own or with help from secret whispers from their trusted merchants they listen to on the side.

 

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Marcus Hancroft wrote:


Sassy Romano wrote:


MartinRJ Fayray wrote:

(apart from that: I
really like
the idea, it gives us more easier options to organize our inventory!!!!)

MartinRJ Fayray

Martin, how did you CLOSE my JIRA reporting this new, unwanted, unrequested behaviour as a bug?  I don't wish to get into debate about whether the JIRA or forum process is most appropriate, i'm just interested in how a resident can close another residents JIRA.

I can't close JIRA's.

MY guess, Miss Sassy...

MartinRJ Fayray = Linden Alt

That was my first and strongest assumption.....

MartinRJ FayRay has to be a Linden Alt as I am not aware of anyone other than a Linden that has rights to change status of a LL JIRA or to be able to close a JIRA they did not create.

I think MartinRJ slipped up and didnt realize he/she was taking action as his Linden Alt.

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Marigold Devin wrote:


People who are upset about it the most, are probably the ones who have most coming into their inventories on a daily basis, and it's hard enough to keep on top of everything. 

Like you say, when you get LMs, notecards, textures, with a box of stuff, it automatically goes into the LMs, notecards, textures, etc., folders. With this new Received Items folder, it means we have to elect to move those items into their appropriate folders, but it's more probable that we will delete more rather than move it - or at least that's what LL are hoping.  All our inventory is clutter on their asset servers.



I have a huge inventory - most of it is my shop catalogue, textures, animations scripts etc.  I do get a reasonable volume of notecards, sometimes items and general miscellanea.  If I crash on login it means dicking around with the filters to try and find stuff and then it usually needs moving to other folders as I deal with it.

Received items will make my life easier - even my playtime account will benefit as I do buy and LM stuff on my travels that I don't deal with straight away and because it can be weeks between logins it will be nice to have it all sitting there.

So, apart from the returned items bit I'm not really seeing a problem for me.  I'm only really posting because this has the potential to be a slodrama and I haven't been involved in one of those for a loooonnnng time..  :)

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Toysoldier Thor wrote:

I suspect that the LL DD Developers has no way of creating a MP RECEIVED folder that could only receive purchased items from the MP site... so they turned a limitation into a proposed cool feature.  Lets hope that is the reason because the alternative is that LL came up with this stupid idea all on their own or with help from secret whispers from their trusted merchants they listen to on the side.

 

 

This is my suspicion too, Toy. I think they've run into glitches with DD and this is the only way to solve this aspect. They solve one issue and create a host of new ones. Not good development technique (IMHO).

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If only, for multi-column resizable inventory windows. It does sound though like they're bypassing the need for, or currently can't detect the event that an item came from the Marketplace.

I think the simplest solution a merchant can tell a customer and the customer would find easiest would be to "look in your Received/Marketplace Purchases folder.

Kind of reminds me of Sassy dissecting the transaction flow the other week. It's out of order, but in this case the solution is to make it not matter.

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Allow me to inject my theory ... and spend a bit of text extolling the vagaries of "Programming Psychology 101".

Junior/Newbie programmers are happy when the program they've been working on actually works. They of course haven't investigated edge conditions, error handling or anything that might improve the operation of their code, they're so ecstatic that it actually gets data in, munches it somehow and spits data out that they've not even considered the possibility of unknown and unexpected bugs.

Another facet of this euphoria is that they suddenly see their new toy as the "ultimate Fixer" for everything. It's like a car guy with a brand new tune-up tool ... suddenly they feel like with this one little mechanism they can solve ALL the ills around them. It's a precious thing they've created, and suddenly they find themselves so charmed by its allure and capabilities, they start looking for new uses ... and they find a TON of them.

In this particular case, the Junior Code Slinger was able to twist the Asset Server code to create a new "Received Items" folder for use with the Marketplace and they feel like they've just climbed Mount Everest. Suddenly the RI Folder is the solution to so many other problems. "It's Special dammit, and I made it!" So they dig a little deeper into the Asset Server and realize they can make this new creature of theirs gobble up all sorts of stuff. A wrench here, a tweak there and Presto! Now their mystical invention is capable of taking on the work of ALL incoming objects.

And so they pitch it to their boss. Unfortunately their boss is even more of an SL Newb than they, and the programmer is certainly excited by how magical this new RI folder is .. so okay, let's implement it. And it gets added to the Roadmap. And implemented. And tested as a Beta.

Egg on their face? Admit they were wrong? Not on your LIFE! By golly, the people that use SL just do not understand how absolutely amazing and miraculous this new feature is. Well ... too bad for them, cuz now they're gonna have to deal with it anyway. It's on the Roadmap and NO ONE varies from that. Ever!

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Dartagan Shepherd wrote:

...  or currently can't detect the event that an item came from the Marketplace.

Excellent suggestion Dart. They've figured out how to make it accept inbound items from DD ... BUT it also mistakes every inbound item as though it came from the Marketplace too. Oops! Well shoot! Sell it as a "New Feature"!

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[off topic]


Toysoldier Thor wrote:


Marcus Hancroft wrote:


Sassy Romano wrote:


MartinRJ Fayray wrote:

(apart from that: I
really like
the idea, it gives us more easier options to organize our inventory!!!!)

MartinRJ Fayray

Martin, how did you CLOSE my JIRA reporting this new, unwanted, unrequested behaviour as a bug?  I don't wish to get into debate about whether the JIRA or forum process is most appropriate, i'm just interested in how a resident can close another residents JIRA.

I can't close JIRA's.

MY guess, Miss Sassy...

MartinRJ Fayray = Linden Alt

MartinRJ FayRay has to be a Linden Alt as I am not aware of anyone other than a Linden that has rights to change status of a LL JIRA or to be able to close a JIRA they did not create.

I have no idea about who can and cannot manage the JIRA. But an example: I can close or reopen that https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-28426 Why? I don't know :)

[end off topic]

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Sassy Romano wrote:

Top Tip and open request to LL:

Please log off Facebook and Google and start using your own software.  Try some dogfooding for a change because it's evident that the development roadmap is being managed and implemented by staff who are not using their own code.

Viewer 2, from the team that never log in.

Marketplace, from the team that never sell anything.

and now... Inventory Management, from the team that don't buy or make anything.  (unless you convince me otherwise?)
:)

I'm sorry CTL, i'll happily play devil's advocate at times and I can appreciate where some of these ideas seem to sprout from but on this one, just...no.

applause 2.gif

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Reserving full judgement til I've had time to test, but initial impressions:

 

  • Marketplace purchased items.

Yes

  • Inventory from scripted objects.

Could be useful  - would help people find things they've been sent - but will they still have to accept the delivery first? Currently when multiple items are sent in V3, any acceptance popups after the first are minimised - this is a problem because ppl are missing deliveries.

 

  • Anything new to your inventory that you Take or Take Copy.

Please, no. This could be a pain for building. Objects going to objects folder is fine as is. What happens when you drag a texture/script out of a rezzed object of your own? Can you drag it to a chosen folder? or will it be forced elsewhere?

 

  • Anything you rezzed in someone else's parcel and they have Returned.

No. Returned items still needs to be a category of its own. It's important to know the difference (and I shouldn't have to explain why).

 

  • Inventory offers from other users.

This could be useful in some circumstances. Eg i get a ton of info sent to me that I just like to keep long enough to read/act upon. So this could end up being a useful folder to easily clean out once a week.

 

Summary - could have some uses for items sent to us by other people/scripts but NOT our own objects being taken to inventory or returned.

Now the big questions

1. Will this change the way any of these items are received - will offers be auto-accepted? Will there still be popup notifications? Will DD deliveries be announced on arrival?

2. Why no earlier community consultation?

3. Why was this announced by a TPV dev in another forum over a week ago?

http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/general-sl-discussion/69693-online-status-jira-lab-agreed-5.html#post1495637

 

 

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Freya Mokusei wrote:

Yep, I am. And so are LL. By making the Received Items panel separate to the inventory window they're clearly hoping people clean this regularly. Previously there was no incentive to do so, as the Objects folder was more obscured, and 'didn't matter' if it was a mess. LL's challenge is making sure the incentive is there to keep it clean. This isn't a new challenge, but it IS a new incentive. The tidier and smaller your inventory, the less of a burden you are on LL's servers.


Now you know, that's just isn't going to happen...it's just unrealistic. We're dealing with human beings with their own unique human behavioural patterns.....they are not automated Bots.


Freya Mokusei wrote:

Inventory search isn't a rear-end solution for these huge database calls. Sure it helps the resident find what they're after, but by doing a large-scale scan on your inventory you're not being server-friendly. As I say, my opinion is that this new process will help.

As for 'adequate tools', 'filters' 'recent items' etc etc, they don't work as cleanly and are for more burdensome to use. The process is clunky and out-dated, and makes no sense to new users. Received Items mirrors other more modern approaches to asset-handling.

Mumbo-jumbo
that
!
:D

The "Show filters" option is dead easy to use....it sure less work than going through your "Received Items" folder nearly every other day....and moving items to correct folders in the Main Inventory tree. Just because it's  deemed to be a modern approach...doesn't necessary imply it's the best solution for the SL Inventory management.

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Toysoldier Thor wrote:


Marcus Hancroft wrote:


Sassy Romano wrote:


MartinRJ Fayray wrote:

(apart from that: I
really like
the idea, it gives us more easier options to organize our inventory!!!!)

MartinRJ Fayray

Martin, how did you CLOSE my JIRA reporting this new, unwanted, unrequested behaviour as a bug?  I don't wish to get into debate about whether the JIRA or forum process is most appropriate, i'm just interested in how a resident can close another residents JIRA.

I can't close JIRA's.

MY guess, Miss Sassy...

MartinRJ Fayray = Linden Alt

That was my first and strongest assumption.....

MartinRJ FayRay has to be a Linden Alt as I am not aware of anyone other than a Linden that has rights to change status of a LL JIRA or to be able to close a JIRA they did not create.

I think MartinRJ slipped up and didnt realize he/she was taking action as his Linden Alt.

Well if he was able to close a Jira...it would appear that he is an LL alt. Do they employ Austrians?

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Sera Lok wrote:

I would just like to know why there are 10 pages of feedback filled with logical questions that are not yet answered by CommerceTeam Linden. 

You are very interested in our feedback, WE are very interested in your responses... so please respond.

 

Me too, Miss Sera!  The Received Items folder is to be used for Marketplace purchases ONLY!  Nothing else goes in there!  Get it, Commerce Team?!  Now can you please respond to these 10 pages of feedback?!!

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LOL  Marcus....

 

 

LL Commerce Team wanted our feedback and thoughts.... but now that they saw the overwhelming response that their grand idea is a concrete balloon.....  they really dont know how to reapond.

They know full well that any response from them to defend the new feature that they likely will be deploying (regardless of our hatred for the idea) will just get us more angry. 

They know that they painted themselves in a corner and moved this idea too far down the road to implementation (i.e. the posting from SLUniverse from a TPV developer makes it clear that they have already instructed TPV companies to incorporate this new feature) and cant back out now even if they wanted to.  This is typical LL Commerce Style.  As such, they cannot post a response to tell us what they know we want to hear from them..... "Thanks for the feedback and its clear that this feature is not wanted in the state we have it so we are shelving the idea".

So really..... if you were Brooke or anyone that drives the "LL Commerce Team" forum postings.... what would you say if you were them?    Not what would be the right thing LL should do.... how would you wiggle out of this next big mistake of theirs?

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Would like to point out that the responders in this thread are not the usual suspects who oppose every move LL makes. We are simply people who manage inventory on a daily basis and know how time-consuming it is. Dumping all these things in one folder instead of sending them to the textures folder, notecard folder, etc. only makes inventory management more time-consuming. Also, few of us consider our own items that we take into inventory "Received Items". Recent serves the purpose adequately already.

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CTL: In the picture you provide of the new Received Items folder, all the folders are sorted alphabetically. How are we supposed to know when a folder or item was actually added to the folder? Is there an option (planned or implemented) that lets you sort the folders and items by date received?

RI Folder.png

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This is really confusing....

It would appear that when I 'take copy' of an older item that i rezzed out, it goes to the Objects folder.  Then when I build a completely new item and 'take copy,' it goes to the Received Items folder. Huh??

Also, when I build a new item and 'buy' 'open' 'take copy', it goes to the Received Item folder (working as intended?) But when I rez an older item from my inventory and do any of these actions, they all go to the "objects" folder UNLESS I am buying *CONTENTS*.

Also, without the ability to sort Received Items by date, this KILLS any support I might have had for this 'feature'

I do not like. There is no consistency between newly created objects and objects rezzed from inventory.

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