LL Reaches Out on PBR

[SandorWren]

36 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

They do this to me, too.  Their not so subtle form.of bullying.  Who'd have thought!?

What ???

[WeFlossDaily]

7 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Your RAM is great, but if viewing avatars in crowded regions will crash you, yeah, you're definitely going to struggle running PBR with good implementation, even. 

If this is a laptop, SL is going to slap it around unless it's fairly high-end anyway, so don't feel too bad. The good news is it doesn't seem you'll have to worry about using PBR at all for now, and it's going to take quite some time before the world itself becomes unusable (all white no textures).

The guy at the computer store couldn't understand why I wanted to increase the RAM by so much for 5 year old off the shelf laptop. Currently, LL and the TVP devs seem to be starting to come around to realizing that SL needs to be accessible to ppl trying to play on something they happen to already own and bought off the shelf, which is good, really good. It's about time they realized some of us don't have lot's of money.

__________________

Concerning the PBR textures, I believe Cool VL already has some kind of workaround for the PBR textures issue. But getting rid of Forward-Render entirely is a bad idea, one I find hostile to the low-end user. Frequently, creators state that unless Forward-Render is scrapped, they will have to make two sets of textures, which I find to be lazy reasoning based on the fact that it isn't true, because they have a choice concerning what they wish to make and how they wish to texture it. I say lazy reasoning here because for some reason, SL creators burst into flames at the slightest provocation, and go on giant tyrannical rants about how I am a bad person for suggesting that they are anything less then a godsend to SL, which in turn keeps my argument that LL must take steps to ensure that low-end machines alive and kicking.

Sorry if that entire last paragraph comes across as ideological grandstanding.

[Love Zhaoying]

3 minutes ago, WeFlossDaily said:

The guy at the computer store couldn't understand why I wanted to increase the RAM by so much for 5 year old off the shelf laptop.

Hint: They would rather sell you a new one.

[Cinnamon Mistwood]

PBR hasn't improved anything for me. I have a computer that runs it. I have PBR EEPs that I'm using. I've tweaked my settings. My fps is acceptable. My computer is not overheating.

It's a slimy, ugly, greasy world now.  All clothing looks latex. I take fewer pics because I am not as inspired by my view.

Luckily, my enjoyment of SL is not only about the graphics. I'll stick around for the people I know and times shared with them. I'll stay for the music and dress-up with non-pbr clothing. I pulled out some older clothes from 2016 before materials and PBR. I forgot that black can actually look black and was pleasantly surprised. 

 

[WeFlossDaily]

3 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Hint: They would rather sell you a new one.

 

I want a discount on the discount.

[MissSweetViolet]

5 hours ago, Paul Hexem said:

So, it's worth noting even in the best games, you only actually see real time mirrors in single player. Rendering lots of players is always going to require a ton of horsepower, even before you consider that SL makes it so much worse. Add mirrors that double them up (or more) and you're just asking for trouble.

Mirrors are absolutely best only used when you're by yourself in a quiet area or in a skybox or something, otherwise they really probably should be kept off.

Well, my intent was to put one in the entryway of the house, so other avatars would be an issue for me. As to what others will do with them, who knows, lol. I'll would love to see someone make a building out of mirrors, just for fun. I bet it would lag everyone in the parcel out, but it would be amusing!

There is a game though that indeed has working mirrors [very good ones at that], but how they did with lots of people I'm not sure, it is a very old creepy SL like clone and I hardly ever saw another person except in one or two areas [which didn't have mirrors], let alone all in one space where mirrors were present.

5 hours ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

What is this obsession with mirrors? oooo I can see myself in a mirror, i love second life 10,000 times more now 😂

I liked the idea I could put out working mirrors in rooms where it made sense, like my entryway or a vanity.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

29 minutes ago, WeFlossDaily said:

The guy at the computer store couldn't understand why I wanted to increase the RAM by so much for 5 year old off the shelf laptop. Currently, LL and the TVP devs seem to be starting to come around to realizing that SL needs to be accessible to ppl trying to play on something they happen to already own and bought off the shelf, which is good, really good. It's about time they realized some of us don't have lot's of money.

I personally wouldn't upgrade a PC (or especially a laptop) just for SL, so unless there was some other pressing reason I needed 32 gigs of RAM, I wouldn't really do that myself. I run on 16 gigs, which has been perfectly fine for my own needs overall (SL + gaming + whatever software I find myself needing to use here and there).

As far as low-end users go, SL does eventually have to weigh the pros and cons of keeping itself updated. Unfortunately, very few modern games and platforms are going to run on older hardware, unless they're very easy on the graphics. For a start, LL needs to come up with a reasonable set of system specs to work from, because what's listed on that Wiki is ancient.

 

34 minutes ago, WeFlossDaily said:

I say lazy reasoning here because for some reason, SL creators burst into flames at the slightest provocation, and go on giant tyrannical rants about how I am a bad person for suggesting that they are anything less then a godsend to SL, which in turn keeps my argument that LL must take steps to ensure that low-end machines alive and kicking.

As a former creator, I can tell you that many of them will put in hours, days, sometimes weeks to months-worth of work in exchange for near pennies when all is said and done (fees, taxes, etc.). That's if they make any money at all. The absolute last thing I'd ever call a creator is lazy.

If you've ever made anything from scratch in SL (from prims, from sculpts, from mesh, animations, poses, scripts, etc.) you know how wonky it can be to get things to work within our fiddly system, let alone work well. Adding even more work on top of that? Nooo thanks.

[Extrude Ragu]

1 hour ago, WeFlossDaily said:

Processor is probably a minimum.

I upgraded the RAM from 8 gigs to 32. So I am above minimum here.This has been helpful.

I have no idea what the screen resolution is and am not sure how it matters.

Graphics is on my machine says OpenGL 3.0. Rysen 3 or something like that. So minimum.

Screen resolution, the more pixels you have, the more work your computer has to do to draw the screen. This can double or quadruple the workload depending on resolution.

Ryzen 3 would be a CPU but has integrated graphics. In other words, you don't have a GPU.

To give you an idea of where that pegs you performance wise, Searching for 'Ryzen 3' in GPU Benchmarks ordered by Passmark score, shows multiple units but they all perform comparably to a GeForce GTX 460, a budget GPU released 14 years ago.

 

 

[MillyWH]

I'm glad that the issues are being addressed. I don't have a super fancy machine but I do have a 4.5 yr old low end gaming machine. Which is a lot better than a lot of people I realize (my graphics card isn't enough for some games so I am limited in what I can play). 

 

I've liked PBR. I wasn't sure but now that I've worked out how to keep everything from being so glowy it's a lot better. I keep the mirror setting off because I don't really need it. But my avatar and my clothes look a lot better. I've only run across a few things that look bad . 

[SandorWren]

48 minutes ago, Cinnamon Mistwood said:

PBR hasn't improved anything for me. I have a computer that runs it. I have PBR EEPs that I'm using. I've tweaked my settings. My fps is acceptable. My computer is not overheating.

It's a slimy, ugly, greasy world now.  All clothing looks latex. I take fewer pics because I am not as inspired by my view.

Luckily, my enjoyment of SL is not only about the graphics. I'll stick around for the people I know and times shared with them. I'll stay for the music and dress-up with non-pbr clothing. I pulled out some older clothes from 2016 before materials and PBR. I forgot that black can actually look black and was pleasantly surprised. 

 

OK, well my SL doesn't look like that, even on my old laptop. So maybe we should focus on getting your graphics looking better before we work on our alts.

[WeFlossDaily]

1 minute ago, Extrude Ragu said:

Screen resolution, the more pixels you have, the more work your computer has to do to draw the screen. This can double or quadruple the workload depending on resolution.

Ryzen 3 would be a CPU but has integrated graphics. In other words, you don't have a GPU.

To give you an idea of where that pegs you performance wise, Searching for 'Ryzen 3' in GPU Benchmarks ordered by Passmark score, shows multiple units but they all perform comparably to a GeForce GTX 460, a budget GPU released 14 years ago.

Okej.

Okej. I thought I did.

I don't understand the link entirely. But I see things for sale that I don't know how to put in my laptop that I probably can't afford anyway. I appreciate you trying to help, though.

[SandorWren]

1 hour ago, WeFlossDaily said:

The guy at the computer store couldn't understand why I wanted to increase the RAM by so much for 5 year old off the shelf laptop. Currently, LL and the TVP devs seem to be starting to come around to realizing that SL needs to be accessible to ppl trying to play on something they happen to already own and bought off the shelf, which is good, really good. It's about time they realized some of us don't have lot's of money.

__________________

Concerning the PBR textures, I believe Cool VL already has some kind of workaround for the PBR textures issue. But getting rid of Forward-Render entirely is a bad idea, one I find hostile to the low-end user. Frequently, creators state that unless Forward-Render is scrapped, they will have to make two sets of textures, which I find to be lazy reasoning based on the fact that it isn't true, because they have a choice concerning what they wish to make and how they wish to texture it. I say lazy reasoning here because for some reason, SL creators burst into flames at the slightest provocation, and go on giant tyrannical rants about how I am a bad person for suggesting that they are anything less then a godsend to SL, which in turn keeps my argument that LL must take steps to ensure that low-end machines alive and kicking.

Sorry if that entire last paragraph comes across as ideological grandstanding.

Order off Amazon, and avoid the computer store. look up your laptop online, and check compatibility. 

[SandorWren]

4 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I knew Arielle way before I came to this forum...well over 10 years ago...as male (on another forum), so I always think of them that way.

Same with Prok - I've always known their 1st life gender and they've never hidden it,  and likely I've referred to them as 'she' as they were on that other forum instead of their male persona on this one. Likely they forgive or just ignore it if I've misgendered.

Old habits die hard, and when people decide to switch gender (and let's be real here, they're just pretending to switch genders as I've never heard of any surgeries that indicate a transgender situation) my mind doesn't always follow the current fantasies they're embodying.

But keep trying to trash me Rowan, accusing me of being a bully. I'm sure you'll find something that sticks one day.

Maybe you should let THEM discuss their RL gender before YOU do...

but how DO you actually know. Do you have RL contact with them? RL pics? Voice?

Edited August 23 by SandorWren

[Arielle Popstar]

6 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I knew Arielle way before I came to this forum...well over 10 years ago...as male (on another forum), so I always think of them that way.

That is news to me. The only other forum I knew you on, I presented as female too. You must be mistaking me for someone else.

[Luna Bliss]

6 minutes ago, SandorWren said:

10 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I knew Arielle way before I came to this forum...well over 10 years ago...as male (on another forum), so I always think of them that way.

Same with Prok - I've always known their 1st life gender and they've never hidden it,  and likely I've referred to them as 'she' as they were on that other forum instead of their male persona on this one. Likely they forgive or just ignore it if I've misgendered.

Old habits die hard, and when people decide to switch gender (and let's be real here, they're just pretending to switch genders as I've never heard of any surgeries that indicate a transgender situation) my mind doesn't always follow the current fantasies they're embodying.

But keep trying to trash me Rowan, accusing me of being a bully. I'm sure you'll find something that sticks one day.

Expand  

Maybe you should let THEM discuss their RL gender before YOU do...

but how DO you actually know. Do you have RL contact with them? RL pics? Voice?

Oh sure...there's movies of Prok at SL conferences, and her blog, and her admission of gender.

I'm only explaining why I gender people as I do sometimes when it's based on my past experience..and not that I'm certain about anything with Arielle -- could be, at that time, she was simply presenting as a male on that forum and is really female.  In any case, this is why I think of her as male and sometimes say 'he' when referring to them.  It has nothing to do with "bullying" them via misgendering.

Edited August 23 by Luna Bliss

[Extrude Ragu]

7 minutes ago, WeFlossDaily said:

I don't understand the link entirely. But I see things for sale that I don't know how to put in my laptop that I probably can't afford anyway. I appreciate you trying to help, though.

If it's a laptop you won't be able to add a GPU. In general only desktop PC's are upgradable.

I don't know what your financial situation is like but you can get a decent budget gaming PC on Amazon for £400 to £500.

If you insist on laptop, expect to pay about 30-50% more for the same performance, laptops are always more expensive than desktops.

[SandorWren]

I have no way of judging what gender either one of you are in RL, and it actually IS totally irrelevant. 

13 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I knew Arielle way before I came to this forum...well over 10 years ago...as male (on another forum), so I always think of them that way.

Same with Prok - I've always known their 1st life gender and they've never hidden it,  and likely I've referred to them as 'she' as they were on that other forum instead of their male persona on this one. Likely they forgive or just ignore it if I've misgendered.

Old habits die hard, and when people decide to switch gender (and let's be real here, they're just pretending to switch genders as I've never heard of any surgeries that indicate a transgender situation) my mind doesn't always follow the current fantasies they're embodying.

But keep trying to trash me Rowan, accusing me of being a bully. I'm sure you'll find something that sticks one day.

 

5 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

That is news to me. The only other forum I knew you on, I presented as female too. You must be mistaking me for someone else.

 

[Arielle Popstar]

14 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

As far as low-end users go, SL does eventually have to weigh the pros and cons of keeping itself updated. Unfortunately, very few modern games and platforms are going to run on older hardware, unless they're very easy on the graphics. For a start, LL needs to come up with a reasonable set of system specs to work from, because what's listed on that Wiki is ancient.

SL does have a lot of areas it could update without having to touch the graphics and rendering systems. Between PBR and EEP the Lab seems like it is trying to compensate for other areas it is ignoring.

[Ceka Cianci]

So ya anyways, PBR.  I heard sumthin bout a viewer update or sumthin like dat?

 

hehehe

[Gabriele Graves]

2 hours ago, Extrude Ragu said:

define low end

Edited August 23 by Gabriele Graves
I'm joking in case anyone thinks this is a dig at them.

[WeFlossDaily]

7 minutes ago, SandorWren said:

Order off Amazon, and avoid the computer store. look up your laptop online, and check compatibility. 

I know it. =]

4 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said:

If it's a laptop you won't be able to add a GPU. In general only desktop PC's are upgradable.

I don't know what your financial situation is like but you can get a decent budget gaming PC on Amazon for £400 to £500.

If you insist on laptop, expect to pay about 30-50% more for the same performance, laptops are always more expensive than desktops.

I know.

Food is expensive right now.

And there's other things that are more important to pay for first. But having learned more about computers from SL, my next machine will probably be some kind of monster PC that I can experiment with for fun. =]

[Luna Bliss]

I've tried the new Firestorm alpha update and it's great!

Now I can get my 10 alt dancers on for practice at the same time with no lag.

[Ceka Cianci]

1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said:

I've tried the new Firestorm alpha update and it's great!

Now I can get my 10 alt dancers on for practice at the same time with no lag.

What is the version of that one? is it their first PBR version?

Firestorm 7.1.9 (74745)

Edited August 23 by Ceka Cianci

[JUSTUS Palianta]

5 hours ago, Henri Beauchamp said:

I never said PBR was a bad thing in itself: re-read what I wrote !

I did say however that removing the forward renderer without a lightweight one to replace it was doomed to a total reject by people with ”weak” hardware, since they were not even using ALM in the first place due to performances (or memory) issues, and the more complex PBR renderer could not improve things over ALM.

Before calling other people immature, you should better read what they wrote...

PBR really is beautiful but not everyone is living their SL for the graphics.

Last night there was only 21 000 people online I haven't seen it so low since I got the Online Resident Counter perhaps people leaving in protest, really has worked.  

[Luna Bliss]

7 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

8 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I've tried the new Firestorm alpha update and it's great!

Now I can get my 10 alt dancers on for practice at the same time with no lag.

What is the version of that one? is it their first PBR version?

Firestorm 7.1.9 (74745)

Sorry Ceka, I meant the updated SL viewer is running great..

The interface though...is a pain...but I'll get used to it.