Is Lindenlab choosing a doomed path for SL ? Tell us if the EEP and PBR introduction changed the way you play SL

[Qie Niangao]

7 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

How exactly would forcing pc users onto mobile, where they have no inventory access, and so basically no use for most of their inventory, and thus will STOP buying stuff, a "good business move"?

Nobody buying things means all inworld stores close, LL lose massive amounts of land revenue, nobody being able to rez/build means nobody wants of needs a home, kiss the residential parcel tier income goodbye, say Bye-bye to Bellicosia too.

 

Nothing smart about it. 

Yeah, but that wasn't what I was agreeing with, or at least not what I thought I was agreeing with—the quoting history is pretty long here. The proposition as I understood it was, on the one hand, drop all Mobile development and somehow magically rescue Intel integrated graphics, versus letting integrated graphics just fade into the sunset, replaced by Mobile. (And obviously not the Mobile of the current Premium-only beta with no inventory access, etc.) Really both scenarios have serious users still needing a reasonable desktop for content creation, as with pretty much every other app ever.

I just don't see the point of continuing to torment integrated graphics users as if the experience were ever or could ever be tolerable. We see them complaining here all the time, long before PBR. Pull off the bandage already. If they have a mobile device, they can't possibly be worse off using it with a viewer that's actually designed for that device.

Maybe someday some version of that Unity-based content-consumption viewer can be ported back to low-end desktops, if the demand remains, but I sure wouldn't burn any development time trying to continue supporting a full-fledged client for those. (Of course, TPVs can support whatever they want.)

[Luna Bliss]

24 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

t might also be that people don't actually NEED new hardware but need to learn to adjust the hardware they do have to the task.  Seems some don't want to hear that, though. 

Exactly. Just like I needed to dial down my graphics settings over the years as I pushed my last PC into its 12th year here, and probably could have even gone a few more years if I upgraded it a bit more.

[Toothless Draegonne]

2 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Bye! We won't miss you when you depart for TurboSquid and Useless Engine based First Person Shooters.

 

You appear to have this rather oddball fascination with Unreal Engine, like it's the only game engine in existance. Regardless, it's not me leaving. It's basically everyone that's already left for much richer pastures. I'll probably still be around throwing particles and musicboxes at people. Now though, the musicboxes might have gltf overrides for a little extra magic.

Maybe at some point the old creators might come back, if they haven't been permanently put off by some of the more stupid things the Lab has done over the years. For as long as SL remains this special little boy with very special needs though, like hell they will.

[Irina Forwzy]

38 minutes ago, Psyche Starling said:

I mean, it's a "por que no los dos" thing. I make stuff because I feel like making stuff, and I might as well toss it out there for sale because someone else might like it too, and maybe it'll offset the cost of my "materials" a little. But I don't expect it to make me a RL level of income that I can really live on. Maybe the big creators do. I'll probably never make a lot because it is pretty influenced by my own tastes.

And I do love a long skirt, but sometimes I get a fun idea involving a short one, and into the store it goes.

But that's not the majority of creators. At least not the ones that are going to multiple events and producing for them.

[Irina Forwzy]

1 hour ago, DevlinMcDermott said:

Drivel, you say? 

I challenge you (or anyone here reading this) to run a simple poll of people that have tried PBR and are having problems or those that have tried PBR and like it.   A simple poll. Better yet, and to make it fair, break it down into five categories.  From love to hate, it and range between. 

What's drivel is the flood of word diarrhea posts that comes after one expresses dislike for it here in this thread.  You can almost call it deliberate. 

Shall I create one? I have done them for work... Can create it a few minutes.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

2 hours ago, Codex Alpha said:

 

2 hours ago, BriannaLovey said:

majority of end users don't care. Creators must not forget who they serve.

An odd way to put it.

No, it really isn't.

 

People who make and sell things, on a PROFESSIONAL basis, as opposed to pretending they are "leet artistes", have a very clear workflow.

 

Find out what people want to buy, make what pe9ople want to buy, sell people what they want to buy, PROFITS!

 

SL's "leet artistes" keep trying to claim that they are "leet artistes" and that we should buy stuff we don't want from them, because it's our "duty" as customers to support the EGOS of "leet artistes".

 

I remember the owner of one store I *used* to shop at expressing shock when people told her they had no more reason to shop at her store since she  had dropped suopport for SL's most popular female mesh body.

She SERIOUSLY believed that we'd all switch bodies so we could continue to support her LEET artiste pretentions.

 

Edited Wednesday at 08:24 PM by Zalificent Corvinus
Edited because Fluffy Sharkin was "Triggered" by a "missing leet".

[Thecla]

14 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said:

You don't need substance to create PBR materials. If you are interested in learning to mesh, learning how to make materials inside Blender is sufficient. Many creators prefer substance because it offers a lot of unique features but it is not really necessary to create something nice. Lots of other tools are available to make these materials as well.

A perpetual license version of Substance is on Steam. You don't need to get the monthly sub.

 

 

Well that "perpetual" license only gives you updates through 2024, and it's $200. Monthly from Adobe is $20, so if you're not sure if it's the right software for you, I'd go that route.

Development on the app has slowed to a crawl since Adobe acquired it, and most of the work seems to be compatibility and integration with other Adobe products...to further entangle you in their evil web.

That said, one of the main attractions of Substance is that it's EASY. Like almost push-button easy. Texturing in Blender using nodes will make your brain hurt, for a long time, until you figure out what you're doing. But ultimately you can accomplish the same things, to a degree.

Edited Wednesday at 08:20 PM by Thecla

[Rowan Amore]

3 minutes ago, Irina Forwzy said:

But that's not the majority of creators. At least not the ones that are going to multiple events and producing for them.

I'd say, in reality, it's a minority of creators that you see at events.  There are literally thousands of stores on the MP yet no where near that many who regularly participate in any event.  Some only participate in the LL birthday events.  

 

[Aglaia]

56 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

How to put this delicately: I doubt the people who are here mostly for "adult activities" are really going to care how it looks.

 

Many do  The more realistic it looks, the spicier is the "adult" experience.

[AmeliaJ08]

10 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

I just don't see the point of continuing to torment integrated graphics users as if the experience were ever or could ever be tolerable. We see them complaining here all the time, long before PBR. Pull off the bandage already. If they have a mobile device, they can't possibly be worse off using it with a viewer that's actually designed for that device.

Hear hear.

You can't make integrated graphics work, it hasn't worked for ten years now. The only way to make it work was to disable SL's lighting engine and that isn't great for the grid. If it does work at all your experience likely will not be great enough to really consider it working.

There's just no real opportunity to get anything out of these iGPUs, they cannot handle SL and it's time to be honest about it instead of luring people along. LL have not been great about this but Firestorm can probably be a bit more honest and spell it out very clearly: Second Life requires a dedicated, discrete GPU.

 

Edited Wednesday at 08:21 PM by AmeliaJ08

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

3 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

She SERIOUSLY believed that we'd all switch bodies so we could continue to support her artiste pretentions.

The fact that you missed off the preceding "leet" in your last use of the word artiste is a little triggering, it feels as if your tirade is somehow unfinished.  

[JeromFranzic]

1 hour ago, Istelathis said:

I barely muster 8fps in the latest Firestorm, while in SL21B.. this is ridiculous!

🙃🦆😉😜

 

Wait, really? I can get 15-25 in that not-so-busy looking area, especially if I'm running Lubuntu.

Oh wait, you're in a VM. I use one of those. My VM of choice is VirtualBox. I wouldn't use a VM for metaverses (much less anything that really requires 3D acceleration), native OS run is best.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

4 minutes ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

The fact that you missed off the preceding "leet" in your last use of the word artiste is a little triggering, it feels as if your tirade is somehow unfinished.  

Post edited, happy now?

LEET LEET LEET LEET!

[Istelathis]

6 minutes ago, JeromFranzic said:

Wait, really? I can get 15-25 in that not-so-busy looking area, especially if I'm running Lubuntu.

Oh wait, you're in a VM. I use one of those. My VM of choice is VirtualBox. I wouldn't use a VM for metaverses (much less anything that really requires 3D acceleration), native OS run is best.

I tried it in virtualbox and got 1fps on my skyplatorm 🤣 My platform consists of a prim, and about four other prims I have been experimenting with for chatbots.  It really goofed with virtualbox, often rendering the whole desktop black.  Of course, I blame PBR for this, LL is at fault!  

Edited Wednesday at 08:28 PM by Istelathis

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

1 minute ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Post edited, happy now?

LEET LEET LEET LEET!

Absolutely ecstatic! Thanks!  

[BriannaLovey]

1 hour ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

Wait I thought we were talking about whether or not people buy PBR content, now you're helping to save people?

What are you planning to do, build an ark out of default plywood cubes and load all the non-PBR users onto it two by two? 😕

Have been the whole time. I have been directing people to use Cool VL Viewer since the start, and then later Genesis viewer as well once I found out it wasn't going to have PBR for a while. Then I am also going to make a fork of the last non-PBR Firestorm version that disables their version checking mechanism and removes all their telemetry except the bare minimum required by LL. From there, I will add more features to it, like partial visibility for PBR materials. I was going to call it PotatoStorm, but now that you are  using the ark analogy, I think I will call it ArkStorm. Thanks for the idea!

[Love Zhaoying]

4 minutes ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

7 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Post edited, happy now?

LEET LEET LEET LEET!

Absolutely ecstatic! Thanks!  

I got a thrill, imaging Zal turning beet-red while she was screaming, "LEET"!

I am bothered that she does not spell it "L33T".  No respect.

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, BriannaLovey said:

Have been the whole time. I have been directing people to use Cool VL Viewer since the start, and then later Genesis viewer as well once I found out it wasn't going to have PBR for a while. Then I am also going to make a fork of the last non-PBR Firestorm version that disables their version checking mechanism and removes all their telemetry except the bare minimum required by LL. From there, I will add more features to it, like partial visibility for PBR materials. I was going to call it PotatoStorm, but now that you are  using the ark analogy, I think I will call it ArkStorm. Thanks for the idea!

I imagine you like Vanna White, gesticulating at the solution as if turning a box to reveal a clue to the audience.

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

3 minutes ago, BriannaLovey said:

Have been the whole time. I have been directing people to use Cool VL Viewer since the start, and then later Genesis viewer as well once I found out it wasn't going to have PBR for a while. Then I am also going to make a fork of the last non-PBR Firestorm version that disables their version checking mechanism and removes all their telemetry except the bare minimum required by LL. From there, I will add more features to it, like partial visibility for PBR materials. I was going to call it PotatoStorm, but now that you are  using the ark analogy, I think I will call it ArkStorm. Thanks for the idea!

Well I always applaud those with a clear sense of purpose, especially if it drives their creativity.

I kinda liked the name PotatoStorm personally, but if you think ArkStorm sounds better then you're welcome to it.  

Good luck with the viewer, I hope it's a great success!

[Istelathis]

2 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I got a thrill, imaging Zal turning beet-red while she was screaming, "LEET"!

I am bothered that she does not spell it "L33T".  No respect.

n0 0nE u5e5 13e7 5p3@K aNy m0r3

[Zalificent Corvinus]

6 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

am bothered that she does not spell it "L33T".  No respect.

Oh, one of those coder nerd "l33t hax0r5", no wonder you used to say undeserved complimentary stuff about PBR...

 

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

6 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I got a thrill, imaging Zal turning beet-red while she was screaming, "LEET"!

I'm not sure someone who's as Goth as Hell  would ever turn any shade with that much saturation in it.

I imagine her turning from white to a slightly darker and more ominous shade of grey, kind of like how clouds turn just before a thunderstorm?!

[Istelathis]

Just now, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

I'm not sure someone who's as Goth as Hell  would ever turn any shade with that much saturation in it.

I imagine her turning from white to a slightly darker and more ominous shade of grey, kind of like how clouds turn just before a thunderstorm?!

In PBR, we all turn red! or blue.. depending on the environment.  I guess we are alll smurfs now, thanks Linden Lab... 

[JacksLiver]

To be honest, I'm used to it. All Graphic Apps end up making you buy more powerful hardware to handle them, SL by LL is actually not going as fast as Adobe that renders your computer useless in three consecutive updates. So, well make the best of it while you can.

[Vivienne Schell]

30 minutes ago, AmeliaJ08 said:

Second Life requires a dedicated, discrete GPU.

For fluent gameplay (more than 20 fps, which is kind of conservative), it ever did. But mind that many, many people do not need or want to move or participate in any kind of mass event or whatever. They just sit or stand around and chat. And how the world looks does not matter much to them, cause they only render within 32m or 60 m range and all shaders off. These people are not a just a significant minority, and even if they did never jump onto the itsibity shiny mesh asset, mesh body and fashion train, they contribute a valuable share of activity and money.

Sure, LL could simply shut the door, but there were valid, commercial reasons for not doing so. Maybe the course of the Lab changed lately, cause the stats tell them that this share of the population is shrinking beyond commercial significance, but I doubt that.

I think that they thought that it was time for something new, because only something new is "dynamics". And dynamics keep the audience interested. Before PBR it was windlight, mesh, pathfinding (big bummer), experiences, bento and whatever. Now it´s this PBR thing. Thought is that all the shiny PBR houses and clothes and all that will make their audience go for it, purchase it and stay happy customers. Unfortunately they underestimated the impact on the lower end and midrange audience, either by lousy advice by some "experts" or by simple incompetence of their coders, or both.

Or they knowingly drop lower end for high end exclusively. But if they do that without offering an alternative for lower end (maybe mobile) this will result in an to be expected and predictable failure. They only would repeat the Sansar debacle.

Edited Wednesday at 08:51 PM by Vivienne Schell