Is Lindenlab choosing a doomed path for SL ? Tell us if the EEP and PBR introduction changed the way you play SL

[Vivienne Schell]

10 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

The roadmap is PBR - > GLTF -> VULKAN

 

Would not surprise me, the Lab never was famous for making sense, logic, or , god beware, efficiency.

[Nagachief Darkstone]

4 minutes ago, Cinnamon Mistwood said:

Thanks!

Oh! Your video ended up in the quote where people won't see it.  Can you edit it and drop it in the reply!

Whoops! I'm guessing my rapid edit broke the forums a bit. Let me try the forum link: 

 

[animats]

5 minutes ago, Neremyn said:

What would be the point of that besides being memory safe?  I haven't seen anything in practice that improves over C/C++ performance.

Concurrency. I have many threads running asynchronously. This is hard to get working right and Rust's thread safety is a big win.

Much of this involves frantically swapping textures and geometry in and out of the GPU as the camera moves around. The existing viewers are sluggish at this, which is why you often end up in front of a low-rez sign you can't read.  The C++ viewers do this by stealing a little time from the rendering thread on each frame. Sharpview does it in other threads on other CPUs.

There are still lock conflicts to be fixed, though. It's not a magic bullet.

[Nagachief Darkstone]

1 minute ago, Vivienne Schell said:

Would not surprise me, the Lab never was famous for making sense, logic, or , god beware, efficiency.

GLTF provides the structure that a Vulkan rewrite would greatly benifit from, it also gives LL a chance to more or less rewrite mesh implementation from scratch, which has already resulted in improvements, such as gltf nodes/bones being streamed to the GPU much more efficiently.

[Modulated]

4 minutes ago, Vivienne Schell said:

Would not surprise me, the Lab never was famous for making sense, logic, or , god beware, efficiency.

I have arrived to the conclusion that you are just hellbent on being contrary, no matter what. Good day, and best of luck.  🤯

[Neremyn]

11 minutes ago, animats said:

Concurrency. I have many threads running asynchronously. This is hard to get working right and Rust's thread safety is a big win.

Much of this involves frantically swapping textures and geometry in and out of the GPU as the camera moves around. The existing viewers are sluggish at this, which is why you often end up in front of a low-rez sign you can't read.  The C++ viewers do this by stealing a little time from the rendering thread on each frame. Sharpview does it in other threads on other CPUs.

There are still lock conflicts to be fixed, though. It's not a magic bullet.

Ah, very cool. Thank you for the explanation.

Fortunately, nobody at works has yet decided we have to rewrite in Rust so I don't have to learn it...or be replaced eventually.

[Rowan Amore]

2 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Not the point, it is whether the update to the new thing made a difference to whatever machine was being used. For me none of those others had any real affect on the playability of the computer vs this one which does.

No, my point was that if it's the same machine, that's a fairly old machine.  When did windlights come out?  Mesh?  

[Marianne Little]

I think the greasy look will fade away as creators get more confident and realize they do not turn on the glossy finish to the top.

I think they want to show off and really increase the effect. Shiny gloss is not needed for other than what's shiny in RL. Like polished metal, polished granite and such. Every thing does not have to look like it is sprayed with clear gloss finish.

It was the same with Materials, creators slapped a white texture on for Specularity, to really show off. Yuck. It was/is easy to take off that Specular or use another dark gray texture to tone it down.

Visually, this is a much bigger change than it was from Windlight to EEP. The older enviroment settings is not going to work for 99 % of our current enviroments. Discard the enviroment settings you have used.

The good thing is that new enviroment settings will come quick now, when Firestorm has EEP. It will be freebies and dollarbies soon.

And it looks better with the right settings... really.

Not that I needed PBR, but I can live with it and adapt. I am a bit miffed that LL spend time on PBR instead of other things... But LL do as they want anyway. I am used to it.

[Istelathis]

4 hours ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

I don't know why this is coming down to blood donations vs. working retail as I haven't been following that part of the conversation that much, but do know there are definitely other options if someone's wanting extra cash for PC upgrades, especially now that so much work has gone remote/online.

r/Beermoney, r/Freelance, r/WorkOnline, Rev, UserTesting, Prolific, Upwork, FlexJobs, Problogger's job board, Rat Race Rebellion, Uber/Lyft/Doordash/Instacart (yes I know those suck, but many do it), and Craigslist aren't bad places to start for those wanting to work at home and not get a whole other job, and numerous big and small companies are hiring people to work at home PT and FT. For jobs outside of home, Indeed's a fairly decent site to check.

Parts are expensive, but I've seen some really good deals around Black Friday/Christmas. r/buildapcsales is a good subreddit to keep an eye on for sales, too.

uber/lyft/doordash are options for people who have a newer car, the rest I haven't a clue about.  In general, I don't trust any of the work remotely sites, and think there is a lot of competition.  When watching videos on how to generate money online for free, it is almost always scammy looking, requires a skillset that you will be underpaid for, or is being sponsored by someone who wants you to use their code so they can earn money through you signing up.  Selling on Ebay or craigslist seems to involve a lot of work looking around for something to sell, having space to store all of the junk, then you have to deal with your customers.  A lot of these kinds of jobs, are a huge time sink, which I think would probably be better suited for just getting a normal job.

I dunno.  Food deliver is something I've done, and continue to do when I want some spending cash, and  it was decent enough, but I have a car that gets great gas mileage,  plasma donation is not very involving, and easy for most people who are looking for an easy means of earning extra bucks without a hassle.  Online surveys are an absolute nightmare, which I wouldn't suffer on anyone 🤣

[Persephone Emerald]

2 hours ago, Vivienne Schell said:

Rubberbanding is sim lag. The delay of textures showing up is a well known problem in all PBR viewers. Same for the very high load on the GPU. I do not think that the issues you have are result of a lack of internet speed. This might change once there will be more and more 2k textures around, but for now there are none (or maybe there are some at Shop and Hop, cause LL wanted to show off all the glory).

I'm not using PBR yet. I agree about the sim lag though.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

This any good:

[Omegaslayer]

1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

There is a discernible lack of empathy from some of those responding to complaints here, and, equally, a little too much rage posting from some who are unhappy.

The problems that this update are causing for some are real. And telling someone who is using an 8 year old laptop that was working just fine until now that they should just man up and buy a new one, while a not unrealistic response, is a bit tone deaf given that someone who is using an 8 year old laptop very likely can't afford a new one. That's a simple reality of some people's RL, and it's pretty insensitive not to take it into account.

Equally, some of the tech talk here about processors and heat and so forth is going to go wooooooosh over a lot of people's heads -- as it does over mine, frankly.

PBR isn't going to go away. And yes, it's unrealistic to expect that computers, especially cheap ones, will not become obsolescent eventually. But, as Coffee has noted, we've got people here talking (I hope facetiously) about literally giving blood to get together enough money to upgrade. That maybe should be a bit of an indication of the underlying issues?

Similarly, simply raging about how arrogant LL is being is pointless. There are LOTS of legitimate reasons to criticize how this has been handled, but ultimately the platform has to move forward or it dies. Some are NOT listening to tips -- and for some, the tips might be unrealistic (I'm sorry, but not in a million years am I ever going to replace my GPU on my own).

Maybe a little less yelling from both sides would be good. Whatever your feelings about those who are having issues now, it is NOT helpful to SL if we see a large scale exodus of people who can't grapple with performance or graphics issues. It's in everyone's best interest, for the good of SL, to be a bit patient. Just as it's in everyone's interests, even if you're on a Walmart special, to see the platform upgrade in the interest of future viability and longevity.

exactly, i'm of the majority who can't afford a new computer, i know second life needs to adapt but the only way they can know something is wrong is by voicing our problems. I do wish people would understand more than we can't just simply jump online and buy another computer sometimes. 

[AmeliaJ08]

3 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

This any good:

Yeah. Bit garish though, shame it's so hard to find a PC with a dedicated GPU that doesn't come with silly glowing fans! Asus sell a ProArt line that is very understated and pro looking but they charge you even more for not having glowing stuff.

Sorry if you like the silly glowing fans only thing about it is the 4060Ti with 8GB VRAM, the 16GB model would be more future proof but it's rare to find and quite expensive. 8GB works fine for the moment though, don't see much texture thrashing.

Edited June 24 by AmeliaJ08

[BilliJo Aldrin]

1 minute ago, AmeliaJ08 said:

Yeah. Bit garish though, shame it's so hard to find a PC with a dedicated GPU that doesn't come with silly glowing fans!

Sorry if you like the silly glowing fans only thing about it is the 4060Ti with 8GB VRAM, the 16GB model would be more future proof but it's rare to find and quite expensive. 8GB works fine for the moment though, don't see much texture thrashing.

I don't want silly glowing fans, I just want something that will run Second Life ok 😁

[AmeliaJ08]

Just now, BilliJo Aldrin said:

I don't want silly glowing fans, I just want something that will run Second Life ok 😁

Yeah me neither, only way to do that is build it yourself though since they think you want them. I'm sure you can turn off the lights

[Rowan Amore]

3 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

..because the viewers, when recommending settings, are taking into account some aspect of Second Life and your setup that you are not aware of. That's the reason. 🙂

 

I actually lower my settings from what the viewer sets them at.  Lower draw distance, lower LOD, lower particles.  None of those impact the view but can impact performance.  I don't NEED shadows on most of the time if I'm indoors.  I've checked the difference in photos between what I normal use and the ultra setting and see no discernible difference.  Why tax my machine if I don't need to?

[Arielle Popstar]

2 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

This is a nonsense.

If you bought the fancy PC silicon. use it. use it all. use to to it's engineered capacity.

You can't over use it. You can only attempt to use it beyond it's design specifications, and your mileage may vary.

If you're unable to use it to it's design specifications, you should seek a warranty return.

I'll use it regularly later in the fall when I need the extra heat in my computer room, not now when it is warm enough as it is. Why use a viewer that is putting out more heat then one that does it significantly cooler and looks just as good as the one that makes my vid card into a heater?

[Thecla]

5 hours ago, Vivienne Schell said:

Gaslighting. Also, the computers of half of SL users "suck". They always did, if you base your judgement on on the wllingness to invest like 2000 Dollars on a decent high end machine (for getting miserable performance compared to any other AAA game). Fine, if you wanna stay among the ten or fifteen percent high end fetishists in SL, you´ll be happy. But the world will be empty. Just like Sansar, the El Dorado for high end fetishists.

Gaslighting? I don't think that means what you think it means lol.

I'm stating a few facts about statistics and the validity of the data set that we have available. Saying that it's invalid is gaslighting? So anyone who argues about the quality of a data set is a gaslighter? Good thing I did not pursue a career in the sciences lol.

And I agree that the computers of half the SL user base...heck, maybe even more, are likely old and don't run SL well. These are probably the same people that play it on free accounts, hang out at magic chairs or whatever they are called, and generally don't do much for LL bottom line.

I spent a little over 1k on my machine about 18 months ago. It runs SL at between 80-130 fps at most locations. And I'm not one of those people unwilling to to shove the graphics slider hard left when the going gets tough, at events of 60-100 people. Oh and the machine plays AAA games just fine...Starfield (trash, stopped playing it lol), Death Stranding, and others.

Fetishist? I don't think that means what you think it imeans lol

Well obviously, we will see if you're right, and 85% of the user base leaves. I don't think it's going to be that bad. But if it's 20%, well I think LL may have factored that in, on the assumption that the improved graphics will attract a new user base. They may be wrong, we'll find out.

SL is obviously very different to different people. There are those that don't give a fig about beautiful builds or immersiveness, they just want to socialize. There are role players, and that is a diverse segment itself. with "pre-mesh originalists" lifestyling Gor in private sims to sci-fi aficianodos with eye-watering avatar complexity. There are musicians and artists and techies and builders. It goes on and on and on. As technology gets updated, some are going to be left behind. If SL is important enough to them and their experience is intolerable enough, they'll upgrade their computer. SL can't service those who stubbornly refuse to update forever.

I never said that I didn't think that this would be disruptive. I just thought the OP's whining was a little over the top.

Edited June 24 by Thecla

[Thecla]

12 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

I actually lower my settings from what the viewer sets them at.  Lower draw distance, lower LOD, lower particles.  None of those impact the view but can impact performance.  I don't NEED shadows on most of the time if I'm indoors.  I've checked the difference in photos between what I normal use and the ultra setting and see no discernible difference.  Why tax my machine if I don't need to?

I vary my settings all the time as well, depending on what I'm doing and where I am in SL. Shadows are lovely, but not necessary, for example. And I'm constantly adjusting view distance...often several times in the same location.

In truth, SL gives you far, far more control over graphics settings than most games...in granular detail...so you can adjust it to your needs. Are there some for whom the lowest possible settings are still too demanding on their hardware? No doubt.

[Toothless Draegonne]

Dear lord, 24 hours and so many pages of people who think that a cheap PC can't run SL any more. Yes, it can.

A cheap PC from 15 years ago maybe not so much, but the people claiming you need to spend $1500 to run a PBR viewer are either misled or lying. Ultra preset is there for people who want to go crazy with hardware. For everyone else, just drop a few options. ALM was never, ever the problem. Ever. And PBR is not the problem either.

I will say again, my $1000 last-gen laptop runs ultra. A $500 handheld running with an APU/iGPU can run medium-high (with 4GB of shared VRAM as well). None of these are budget-conscious choices either. If you want to go budget-conscious, you'd be using a desktop with a 1080p 60hz monitor and it would cost you significantly less to have a machine capable of running the ultra preset in any region that is not a lagfest of fashionistas and bad scenery.

And I'll repeat this as many times as I have to, whether it's on this forum or around the grid.

[Dorientje Woller]

24 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

This any good:

"Say goodbye to outdated and inefficient aircoolers" ... if that's the gimmick to buy a PC with liquid cooling, that integrator is pulling the wool over your eyes. Aircoolers are rising in popularity again and are getting better and better in efficiency.

[BriannaLovey]

1 minute ago, Thecla said:

I vary my settings all the time as well, depending on what I'm doing and where I am in SL. Shadows are lovely, but not necessary, for example. And I'm constantly adjusting view distance...often several times in the same location.

In truth, SL gives you far, far more control over graphics settings than most games...in granular detail...so you can adjust it to your needs. Are there some for whom the lowest possible settings are still too demanding on their hardware? No doubt.

Even if Henri caves in and all viewers become PBR, there will likely still be ways for TPVs to disable certain features in order to reduce GPU load.

[Istelathis]

5 hours ago, Persephone Emerald said:

I like production work, but it depends on the company and one's coworkers. I worked 13 years mixing, dispensing and packaging chemicals used in clinical lab testing. More recently I was making pharmaceutical drugs and packaging Nicaderm patches. That last part was the most boring, sitting and pushing a button when I saw defects, but my coworkers' drama made it interesting and the sense of teamwork and creating something people need made it feel rewarding. I like how at the end of day, I feel like I've made stuff that people need, rather than just selling stuff or dealing with difficult, unappreciative customers.

If there is a hell, I think it would entail some form of retail work.

[Rowan Amore]

1 minute ago, Thecla said:

I vary my settings all the time as well, depending on what I'm doing and where I am in SL. Shadows are lovely, but not necessary, for example. And I'm constantly adjusting view distance...often several times in the same location.

In truth, SL gives you far, far more control over graphics settings than most games...in granular detail...so you can adjust it to your needs. Are there some for whom the lowest possible settings are still too demanding on their hardware? No doubt.

I have made presets for my graphics settings.  One for photos, one for inside, one for outside, one for mainland outside.  No sense running full bore ALL the time when something lower works just as well visually.   Running Ultra just because I can?  Then complain that my fans are running too much?  

[Toothless Draegonne]

Just now, BriannaLovey said:

Even if Henri caves in and all viewers become PBR, there will likely still be ways for TPVs to disable certain features in order to reduce GPU load.

There already are and they never went away. You can turn shadows off. You can reduce or remove reflections. You can (and probably should if you don't have crazy hardware) disable mirrors. You can set water to not be transparent. All the things you could do before, you can still do. ALM was never the problem. PBR is not the problem.