Will The New TOS on Child Avatars Ensnare Short Adults?

[Persephone Emerald]

1 hour ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

Well you shouldn't come across it, because I'm sure it will be hidden in some skybox way up in the air somewhere, with invisibility turned on.

I'd be very suspicious of kiddy bedrooms up in skyboxes.

[Cinnamon Mistwood]

3 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

That isn't how I interpret that official answer. I see it as a case where if I am wearing a babygirl dress and am 5 feet tall or less, I'd likely be seen as a child whereas if I was wearing the same dress but was 7 feet, I'd likely not be seen as such. Without a Linden to clarify that, it's left to be ambiguous and up to the opinion of the member from Governance.

Short adults are not in any danger of a ban.

If you choose to dress like a child, then you will be seen as one.  

A 10ft toddler is still a child.

A 5ft adult is still an adult.

[Starberry Passion]

1 minute ago, Cinnamon Mistwood said:

Short adults are not in any danger of a ban.

If you choose to dress like a child, then you will be seen as one.  

A 10ft toddler is still a child.

A 5ft adult is still an adult.

I don't think outfits like Lunar, Crybunbun or something along those lines will be in danger of anything.

How can you look at them and see a child avatar in them, or a child wearing such in general?

That is what is strange, a person picturing a child in sexually suggestive baby girl clothing wearing a collar.

[Persephone Emerald]

2 minutes ago, Starberry Passion said:

I don't think outfits like Lunar, Crybunbun or something along those lines will be in danger of anything.

How can you look at them and see a child avatar in them, or a child wearing such in general?

That is what is strange, a person picturing a child in sexually suggestive baby girl clothing wearing a collar.

A collar doesn't always look like a collar. It could look like a candy necklace.

[Starberry Passion]

2 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

A collar doesn't always look like a collar. It could look like a candy necklace.

I was talking about adult wear on an adult body with an adult collar

Also, what is wrong with candy necklaces? I still enjoy those, those are not only cute but good.

Edited May 17 by Starberry Passion

[Sydelle Zanzibar]

On 5/16/2024 at 10:43 AM, Rowan Amore said:

And perhaps those who have "left" have actually just switched to another account and are using an adult avatar.   We're all just guessing.  

If I were using a child only account, I'd already have another account that was adult.  I'm sure many in the children's community do the same.    Just as many use different accounts for different RP scenarios.  

I do have adult alts, but i don't enjoy playing as them. They don't have real friendships, homes, land, business, etc.  You are actually saying... just abandon all your SL friends and community and "just" start over. Because while people would not refuse to talk to me or whatever anymore, the common enjoyments we had are changed when you take away the commonality of our community. It's like in RL if you join a Hobby club and years later stop doing the hobby. You might check in with old friends now and then, but you no longer have the hobby to talk about and do together making things less smooth and easy. 

Honestly if i were to "Just switch to an adult account", and I have been considering it, My logins/activity would quickly lower by more than half. My SL activity would probably just dwindle off to nothing over time. I wouldn't close my accounts, because why bother??  

 

[diamond Marchant]

On 5/9/2024 at 1:19 AM, BilliJo Aldrin said:

We all know of the new war on child avatars, but any avatar under 18 will eventually be included,

from the TOS:

---------------------------------

Q: How do you define a child avatar?

A: We are relying on the community to use their best judgment to determine if they are using a child avatar or not. Creating a list of specifications for something like this can be a slippery slope, and we certainly don’t want to give out directions on how to circumvent any policies. If a reasonable person would look at the features of your avatar and consider it underage, we would recommend not engaging in adult activities on that account. Apart from considering the avatar's appearance, the team considers various other factors, such as the purpose for which the avatar is being used.

As mentioned in other Q&As, general physical characteristics that apply to adults as well as children such as avatar height, being of slim or petite build, gender identity (such as non-binary or gender non-conforming), or ethnicity are not sole or intrinsic qualities that might qualify an avatar as a child avatar.

I am concerned with this sentence: " If a reasonable person would look at the features of your avatar and consider it underage, we would recommend not engaging in adult activities on that account."

My concern is that this borders upon the absurd.

With respect to humans, we can categorize both RL people and avatars into three sets... those clearly over 18, those clearly under 18 and those not in the first two sets. For real life humans, government-issued credentials are typically required to establish age. This is because humans cannot accurately guess the age of those in the third set, in spite of the fact that our human brains are highly evolved to assess attributes of other humans. However,  "trips around the sun" is not an attribute we accurately sense. Imagine an experiment of 100 humans, aged 16-19... do you think you could do better than random at sorting them into a 16-17 group and an 18-19 group?

With respect to avatars, the situation is worse. Avatar variation is immense. Avatars are rendered. There is less information for making an age assessment compared to RL. For the third set of avatars,  I do not think is reasonable to expect that "reasonable persons" can accurately assess avatar age.

What to do? I would simply remove the "reasonable person" sentence from the FAQ and rephrase to say that when an avatar is not obviously a child as judged by presentation, the primary determining factor is behavior.

Edited May 18 by diamond Marchant

[Arielle Popstar]

26 minutes ago, Starberry Passion said:

I don't think outfits like Lunar, Crybunbun or something along those lines will be in danger of anything.

How can you look at them and see a child avatar in them, or a child wearing such in general?

That is what is strange, a person picturing a child in sexually suggestive baby girl clothing wearing a collar.

I have outfits by both of them and wished I shared your confidence as it I believe they put one's look into a questionable state that would potentially need further investigation. For me those creators are one's I'll likely not purchase from for those reasons.

[Sadvhi]

I look like a child no matter what I wear because of my face and skin, but I've seen women with the same face and skin in sexual scenarios on Flickr so they must not think the same about their own avatars 🤣

[Kathlen Onyx]

2 hours ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

Just remember, no actual children are harmed in SL pedo play, but so many people seem to forget that, and cry out "we must do it for the children"

I guess if we really wanna save the children, LL should go all in and simply ban all child avis, that way pedos will have NOTHING to be tempted by 😂

Exactly AND all short people that think AP is funny.

There is something seriously wrong with you.  

Now please stop trolling.

 

[Rowan Amore]

29 minutes ago, Sydelle Zanzibar said:

You are actually saying... just abandon all your SL friends and community and "just" start over.

That's not what I was saying.  I was responding to people mentioning that some of their friends had already left.  I felt that although some may have actually left, some may be using their adult alts if they have them instead of their child avatars.

People do use several accounts for different reasons.  It's not a stretch to assume some child avatar accounts are switching right now until this all sorts itself out.  I would.

 

[Ceka Cianci]

15 minutes ago, diamond Marchant said:

I am concerned with this sentence: " If a reasonable person would look at the features of your avatar and consider it underage, we would recommend not engaging in adult activities on that account."

My concern is that this borders upon the absurd.

With respect to humans, we can categorize both RL people and avatars into three sets... those clearly over 18, those clearly under 18 and those not in the first two sets. For real life humans, government-issued credentials are typically required to establish age. This is because humans cannot accurately guess the age of those in the third set, in spite of the fact that our human brains are highly evolved to assess attributes of other humans. However,  "trips around the sun" is not an attribute we accurately sense. Imagine an experiment of 100 humans, aged 16-19... do you think you could do better than random at sorting them into a 16-17 group and an 18-19 group?

With respect to avatars, the situation is worse. Avatar variation is immense. Avatars are rendered. There is less information for making an age assessment compared to RL. For the third set of avatars,  I do not think is reasonable to expect that "reasonable persons" can accurately assess avatar age.

What to do? I would simply remove the "reasonable person" sentence from the FAQ and rephrase to say that when an avatar is not obviously a child as judged by presentation, the primary determining factor is behavior.

I think the key words there are, a reasonable person.

Someone that more than likely won't shoot from the hip, but if they spot something obvious would  do something..

If someone is shooting from the hip and you know you aren't representing as an under 18 avatar. It's a good chance LL won't either..

I think the closer you get to looking  more on the higher end up the spectrum, there are going to be a lot more AR's not sticking than would stick..

You're pretty much gonna have to have something in your profile or something obvious I would think..

Where if it is on the lower end and you know it's on that lower end. it's probably best to stay clear of those kinds of activities..

 

Edited May 18 by Ceka Cianci

[Coffee Pancake]

1 minute ago, diamond Marchant said:

What to do? I would simply remove the "reasonable person" sentence from the FAQ and rephrase to say that when an avatar is not obviously a child as judged by presentation, the primary determining factor is behavior.

Perceptions of age often depend heavily on the distance in the observers age from that being observed. This is why when granny bought you clothing for Xmas, it wasn't even suitable to be seen dead in.

This effect is magnified by age and familiarity with the age range being judged.

There is no way to do this objectively and not get it wrong and that's before trying to account for makeup styles, ethnicity, fashion or culture.

The primary determining factor should be self identification. "My avatar is 18 years of age" .. and unless egregiously out of line with what's seen on screen that should be allowed to stand.

There has to be room for disagreement that errs in favor of the accused.

[Sydelle Zanzibar]

Just now, Rowan Amore said:

That's not what I was saying.  I was responding to people mentioning that some of their friends had already left.  I felt that although some may have actually left, some may be using their adult alts if they have them instead of their child avatars.

People do use several accounts for different reasons.  It's not a stretch to assume some child avatar accounts are switching right now until this all sorts itself out.  I would.

 

What i mean is, even if you have an alt, most people will not find it easy to simply swap to it and play there instead. I suppose a few might actually have alts they play equally or more often than their kid av, I doubt it's that common. In addition, if i do swap to an adult its unlikely I'd stay in SL long that way. 

I dont see the point in saying well, they might have swapped to another account or did they officially close their account, because if you leave your main account and stop logging in, what good is an idle account thats not used?

[Chery Amore]

19 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

I have outfits by both of them and wished I shared your confidence as it I believe they put one's look into a questionable state that would potentially need further investigation. For me those creators are one's I'll likely not purchase from for those reasons.

I have lot's of clothes from Lunar... my avatar is 5'8 I think.. might be 5'6? I'm not worried in the least.  I have clothes from many of these types of stores. 

Granted the pictures in the ads where I buy from might have slightly anime looking faces but overwhelmingly they are on voluptous  bodies I wouldn't single them out as underage unless they stated they were.. since we all know a 16 year old can look cuvry . Not extremely likely but it can happen.

[Starberry Passion]

23 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

I have outfits by both of them and wished I shared your confidence as it I believe they put one's look into a questionable state that would potentially need further investigation. For me those creators are one's I'll likely not purchase from for those reasons.

No they don't, why would you put these types of outfits on a child avatar? Do you not see the sexuality in those outfits? People still wear Lunar and Crybunbun and others like them and no one has accused them of being a child avatar, why?

because they are adult in nature.

[Rowan Amore]

10 minutes ago, Sydelle Zanzibar said:

What i mean is, even if you have an alt, most people will not find it easy to simply swap to it and play there instead. I suppose a few might actually have alts they play equally or more often than their kid av, I doubt it's that common. In addition, if i do swap to an adult its unlikely I'd stay in SL long that way. 

I dont see the point in saying well, they might have swapped to another account or did they officially close their account, because if you leave your main account and stop logging in, what good is an idle account thats not used?

 

16 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

t's not a stretch to assume some child avatar accounts are switching right now until this all sorts itself out.  I would

 

[Arielle Popstar]

2 minutes ago, Chery Amore said:

I have lot's of clothes from Lunar... my avatar is 5'8 I think.. might be 5'6? I'm not worried in the least.  I have clothes from many of these types of stores. 

Granted the pictures in the ads where I buy from might have slightly anime looking faces but overwhelmingly they are on voluptous  bodies I wouldn't single them out as underage unless they stated they were.. since we all know a 16 year old can look cuvry . Not extremely likely but it can happen.

The style of clothing is not that of someone portraying as a 20+ year old.

[Starberry Passion]

2 minutes ago, Chery Amore said:

I have lot's of clothes from Lunar... my avatar is 5'8 I think.. might be 5'6? I'm not worried in the least.  I have clothes from many of these types of stores. 

Granted the pictures in the ads where I buy from might have slightly anime looking faces but overwhelmingly they are on voluptous  bodies I wouldn't single them out as underage unless they stated they were.. since we all know a 16 year old can look cuvry . Not extremely likely but it can happen.

The reason they look anime is because they kinda are. Everything 2d or 3D is animation.

Anime is short for animation.

No matter how you make your avatar, you're still under animation, just a different style of animation.

Look at 

"Akita Battle Angel movie." that is labeled an anime.

Final Fantasy series, this is an anime, because anime is short for animation.

[Starberry Passion]

1 minute ago, Arielle Popstar said:

The style of clothing is not that of someone portraying as a 20+ year old.

How? Lunar makes lingerie, tiny thongs,

bikini with see through elements,

comfy stripper clothing.

body suits that barely cover your body

short revealing skirts, tight outfits.

So does Crybunbun,

These are adult clothing.

[Chery Amore]

5 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

The style of clothing is not that of someone portraying as a 20+ year old.

What a 20+ year old can't wear cute lingerie... a fur lined  transparent top...,  towels that slip down and jeans or velveteen shorts... also lots and lots of jackets. Granted I don't really like the hood with the ears... it messes up my hair.  Maybe your idea of an adult wouldn't wear them. Mine does. 

Edited May 18 by Chery Amore
one too many velveteens.. opps

[Ceka Cianci]

5 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

The style of clothing is not that of someone portraying as a 20+ year old.

Do you even youtube? 

[Starberry Passion]

1 minute ago, Ceka Cianci said:

Do you even youtube? 

Or look on Twitter or Instagram. lol

[Starberry Passion]

This is a Lunar robe, there is no way, if this was real life, i'd let any child of mine walk around with this.

[Arielle Popstar]

21 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

People do use several accounts for different reasons.  It's not a stretch to assume some child avatar accounts are switching right now until this all sorts itself out.  I would.

I think it is a stretch as most would have a predominant look they use as it is how they identify. Can change to another for a day or two and I sometimes do, but it is too far removed from my main identity for me to feel comfortable in over a longer term aside from the other account not being that well equipped nor has the friends associated with it.

The change would be something like if you suddenly switched to a light tone skin instead of your normal dark one. How comfortable would you feel over the long term having to switch the look from the one you most identify with?