The new ToS and something I don't think was taken into consideration by LL.

[Qie Niangao]

2 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I'd like to go myself, but I expect this to be packed with stakeholders, and I don't want to take up a spot that should be reserved for someone with a child avi. Hopefully @Qie Niangao will be there though. And I can catch Pantera's video of it (assuming there is one; there almost invariably is) and Inara's rundown.

Thanks, but unfortunately I have RL schedule conflict. I too hope Pantera can video it, especially if it's not in text; I'm sure she and Inara will both want to attend but being the first Governance meeting in years we have to hope it's scheduled for a time they can be there.

Presumably somehow we'll know any news soon. For one thing, I'd suppose either the Policy or FAQ simply must change to resolve contradiction. I was surprised that didn't happen in the recent FAQ update, which had that very welcome (and deftly worded) resolution of the Moderate nudity question.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

2 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Thanks, but unfortunately I have RL schedule conflict. I too hope Pantera can video it, especially if it's not in text; I'm sure she and Inara will both want to attend but being the first Governance meeting in years we have to hope it's scheduled for a time they can be there.

Presumably somehow we'll know any news soon. For one thing, I'd suppose either the Policy or FAQ simply must change to resolve contradiction. I was surprised that didn't happen in the recent FAQ update, which had that very welcome (and deftly worded) resolution of the Moderate nudity question.

Well, that sucks!

SOMEHOW, they'll survive without either of us, I'm sure. 😏

The kids are alright!

[Kathlen Onyx]

9 hours ago, Dorientje Woller said:

Now, to stay on topic. Anyone noticed that you look younger/older depending on the windlight setting? 

I didn't read the whole thread before responding so if someone brought this up already I'm sorry in advance.

That is why you need to send in the AR supporting pictures with the midday setting.

[Alwin Alcott]

9 hours ago, Starberry Passion said:

Why don't you just create your own forum post about it then? You're asking someone else to do it but you can do that yourself.

ehm .. you'r also pretty active to set the subject and other users opinion under pressure to be sure it's going as you like?
Do your part, don't try to do other's.

[Alwin Alcott]

9 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

 They leave it up to our discretion.  They don't want to even touch that can of worms.  

i think we shouldn't worry, or a lot to worry .. they dó know what they will accept. Otherwise sending AR's would be useless, they would end all up on the 'we dont know" pile,
and without guessing, that's not going to happen.
 

[Alwin Alcott]

9 hours ago, CaerolleClaudel said:

I am not saying people shouldn't use LeLutka heads, I am just saying that TO ME some of them look disturbingly young as-is, as do a lot of the skins. I am not saying I have the objective truth here, or trying to proscribe anything. In the end, likely most people edit the heads and skins pretty heavily, or at least I do.

Sorry for any confusion, and feel free to explain where I am mistaken, I honestly want to understand.

The heads don't make the main look, skins do.
You can make a child dedicated head look like a adult, and any Lel head as a above middle aged person.
It's in the hands of the wearer how the look gets.

[Alwin Alcott]

6 hours ago, brodiac90 said:

When and where is the meeting?

at a time the majority of non US people are sleeping.

[Dorientje Woller]

2 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

at a time the majority of non US people are sleeping.

Or working ... although, enjoying an extra long weekend. You know, bank holiday.

[brodiac90]

I use Lelutka Avalon.

 Shape really is the most important followed by the skin / hair etc. 

 

[Jaylinbridges]

2 hours ago, Dorientje Woller said:

Or working ... although, enjoying an extra long weekend. You know, bank holiday.

May 9 is also National Lost Sock Memorial Day.  

I think I will sleep in..

[brodiac90]

9 minutes ago, Jaylinbridges said:

May 9 is also National Lost Sock Memorial Day.  

I think I will sleep in..

Now I need to find odd socks to wear! 

[Kaia Sachin]

2 hours ago, brodiac90 said:

I use Lelutka Avalon.

 Shape really is the most important followed by the skin / hair etc. 

I'm also wearing Avalon and I feel like people could definitely question whether or not I am over the age of 18 despite being 5'6" because I'm petite - which is why I've decided to wear modesty layers and comply with the new rules outlined in the updated TOS.

[Arielle Popstar]

57 minutes ago, Kaia Sachin said:

I'm also wearing Avalon and I feel like people could definitely question whether or not I am over the age of 18 despite being 5'6" because I'm petite - which is why I've decided to wear modesty layers and comply with the new rules outlined in the updated TOS.

Myself I would consider that the look of a young adult, maybe even potentially up to 30 years of age.

[HarrisonMcKenzie]

Just to stir the hornet's nest a little more, there are some fun little concerns I've been meaning to point out.

1. To quote the "Clarification of policy" document, "Being fully nude. Child avatar content creators are required to add a modesty layer which is baked into child avatar skins or bodies, is not transparent, does not match the skin tone, and may not be removed."

As written, this means that all child avatars must be nude at all times. If the modesty layer cannot be transparent, that means you cannot alpha that part of your body out in order to wear clothing. It's really fun working in policy enforcement because I get paid to point things like this out. Clearly, that's not the intention here, but that is, in fact, what is written. Since I can't make this modesty layer transparent via an alpha, I am now required to run around in public in only my underwear.

2. I'll need to pull a direct quote but don't have time to right now, but I understand the ToS spells out than no user is to be marginalized or belittled. I look forward to that not being followed, since it already is not being followed. Those who play child avatars are being marginalized and have been belittled long before this change came into effect. Is LL violating its own ToS?

3. What people don't seem to realize is that this whole discussion (the whole topic, not this thread) sexualizes kids and calls on people to look at child avatars as if they are a sexualized commodity. It promotes the transactionalization of sex, which itself promotes sexual and gender based violence. This whole thing is very weird and a little icky, since this change is forcing people to look at kids as objects of sex. Once again, this is clearly not the intention, as usual, this is having the exact opposite effect because that's what happens when you hastily write bad policies.

The first test of any new policy is the first conflict that arises because of it. We are seeing that right now. As written, this change simply doesn't work and is going to need amendment.

[Codex Alpha]

14 minutes ago, HarrisonMcKenzie said:

As written, this means that all child avatars must be nude at all times.

Residents presenting as Child Avatars shall be prohibited from the following:

Being fully nude. Child avatar content creators are required to add a modesty layer which is baked into child avatar skins or bodies, is not transparent, does not match the skin tone, and may not be removed.

https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Clarification_of_policy_disallowing_ageplay

14 minutes ago, HarrisonMcKenzie said:

3. What people don't seem to realize is that this whole discussion (the whole topic, not this thread) sexualizes kids and calls on people to look at child avatars as if they are a sexualized commodity. It promotes the transactionalization of sex, which itself promotes sexual and gender based violence. This whole thing is very weird and a little icky, since this change is forcing people to look at kids as objects of sex. Once again, this is clearly not the intention, as usual, this is having the exact opposite effect because that's what happens when you hastily write bad policies.

The first test of any new policy is the first conflict that arises because of it. We are seeing that right now. As written, this change simply doesn't work and is going to need amendment.

No, they're discouraging the sexualization of child avatars, and using them in sexualized ways, or being present in adult areas where they don't belong.

In that, it's how a person 'presents' that child avatar. One cannot try to claim there isn't a difference between a child avatar in a summer dress, or one dressed  in lingerie.

Edited May 9 by Codex Alpha

[Flea Yatsenko]

I'm confused why this is still so controversial. If you are wearing an adult body with an adult head and you say your avatar is 18 or older and you're not obviously trying to bend the ToS, and someone accuses you of looking younger. That's their opinion's fault and not yours. People get mistaken in RL age all the time, it's just a fact of biology. I know people irl who get accused of being 10 years younger than they are, my RL genetics are sadly the opposite lol.

In the end it's your AV and your choice what age you are. Yeah there's going to be people who are full of malarkey who think their 4'9" avatar with zero curves or body shape and child looking head with no chin and big eyes is actually an elf or some stupid thing but if it's not such an obvious case, I think people are over reacting. If you're doing adult things in adult places playing what you would consider an adult AV and someone starts to imply they want AP then you leave and walk away, block, even report.

[Persephone Emerald]

7 hours ago, Alwin Alcott said:

The heads don't make the main look, skins do.
You can make a child dedicated head look like a adult, and any Lel head as a above middle aged person.
It's in the hands of the wearer how the look gets.

With Lelutka heads it's really easy to adjust the forehead to chin ratio & all other sliders that make a face look older or younger. I thought Kaya looked too young when I first got it, but with a little adjustment, it looks just fine on my avatars.

[Love Zhaoying]

Do avatars with disproportionally small heads look younger, or sometimes just..odd?

Guess I'm thinking of those "bodybuilders" with small heads.  But before I thought of that example, I was thinking about microcephaly ("pinheads", to use the pejorative).

 

Edited May 9 by Love Zhaoying

[Persephone Emerald]

3 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Do avatars with disproportionally small heads look younger, or sometimes just..odd?

Guess I'm thinking of those "bodybuilders" with small heads.  But before I thought of that example, I was thinking about microcephaly ("pinheads", to use the pejorative).

 

No. They look odd, but heads that are proportionally larger in relation to the body look younger.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

3 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Do avatars with disproportionally small heads look younger, or sometimes just..odd?

It's not "small heads" that look child like, its disproportionally large heads, with certain facial features, bigger eyes etc.

 

The steroid abuse pin-head fake barbarian look is just odd.

[Monika Skydancer]

18 hours ago, Dorientje Woller said:

Now, to stay on topic. Anyone noticed that you look younger/older depending on the windlight setting? 

Yeah I think that's why LL are saying to use the midday setting with the screenshots for your AR. It gives them a baseline.

[Dorientje Woller]

Just now, Monika Skydancer said:

Yeah I think that's why LL are saying to use the midday setting with the screenshots for your AR. It gives them a baseline.

But it doesn't reflect how the one who filed the AR precieved you. It even differs from viewer to viewer.

[ErwinVonVlotho]

14 hours ago, Kaia Sachin said:

I hope that creators will make body skins with modesty layers for the most popular adult bodies as well

It's more likely they'll do whatever they can to discourage child avi users from using their products, because why expose yourself to the whole issue if you can avoid it?

[HarrisonMcKenzie]

1 hour ago, Codex Alpha said:

Residents presenting as Child Avatars shall be prohibited from the following:

Being fully nude. Child avatar content creators are required to add a modesty layer which is baked into child avatar skins or bodies, is not transparent, does not match the skin tone, and may not be removed.

https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Clarification_of_policy_disallowing_ageplay

No, they're discouraging the sexualization of child avatars, and using them in sexualized ways, or being present in adult areas where they don't belong.

In that, it's how a person 'presents' that child avatar. One cannot try to claim there isn't a difference between a child avatar in a summer dress, or one dressed  in lingerie.

That is what is written, but that is not what it says. That's why I wrote what I did: the writing of this policy betrays its purpose. It's bad policy writing that still doesn’t actually address the problem at hand, and bad writing that doesn't survive the smallest amount of scrutiny. This is why people have a problem with this.

[Codex Alpha]

2 minutes ago, HarrisonMcKenzie said:

That is what is written, but that is not what it says.

Does not compute. Does not compute. Does not compute.