Kathlen Onyx Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 1 minute ago, Kei Niosaki said: Yes i know that an i sadly i cant visit those friends home anymore unless i log on my adult avi. Why sadly? Is it really that important for your interactions with those people who live on A rated land be with a child avatar? 3 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceka Cianci Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 3 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said: Breasts are not the parts I was referring to. You mean this part right here -----> w <--------- hehehe 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BilliJo Aldrin Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Kathlen Onyx said: Why sadly? Is it really that important for your interactions with those people who live on A rated land be with a child avatar? If they are a full time rp child, its not fair to expect them to change. I guess they could meet in a park somewhere. Edited May 5 by BilliJo Aldrin added a line 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleMe Jewell Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 24 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said: Yes but she picked him up on adult land first. You can't have a brothel on moderate land, advertised or not Only because you cannot "promote sexual conduct" and a brothel, by definition, is promoting sexual conduct. But I could be wandering Moderate land, maybe shopping, and my profile might say I'm an escort and so someone IMs me and we then go back to my home, also on Moderate land and do the deed for money. So I'm still "hooking" on moderate land, when you get down to it. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathlen Onyx Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 3 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said: If they are a full time rp child, its not fair to expect them to change Life isn't always fair. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BriannaLovey Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 7 minutes ago, frankyjake2333 said: Good Evening. While I’m not a lawyer I do have a good deal of knowledge working with the law. I’m also not a second life player but I do have a close friend that is heavily involved in the platform. She uses it as a form of therapy for a abusive childhood trauma through roleplaying. I have just spent the last two nights watching her have an emotional break down on about this issue. I wanted to post some comments but was begged not too on her account. So, I’ve created my own account to post a comment as an outside observer. I’m sure what I’m about to post will ruffle more than a few feathers and the post itself will be taken down immediately. If you are reading this, take a screenshot of it and post it everywhere; circulate it on reddit and in discord channels. My first comment is to Linden Lab itself. The motives behind the new Terms of Service are complete rubbish, keep that in mind as you read on. You had a scare and found nothing wrong but decided to deprive thousands of users of the joy they have had over years and anger them. How does this make good business sense? When your own internal investigation found nothing wrong the correct thing to do would have been to proceed with business as usual. You found nothing wrong, but you go out of your way to break something that helps so many people. That speaks very poorly of your management skills. But let’s get to the meat of the post. To the people that are suffering have you thought of legal action? Just read the entire post before you rule it out. I’ve looked over the Linden Labs terms of service (tos). They are not as bullet proof as they would have you believe. To an outsider this seems to be a poorly run company trying to recover from a internal scandal and is doing it very poorly. From my point of view there are two grounds for legal action not covered by the TOS. The first case for legal action is on the grounds of emotional distress. I’m sure many of you are already shaking your heads, but there are real grounds here. I watched my friend break down over two days. Her therapist is greatly concerned. The family role playing was assisting in her recovery from trauma. Now that has been removed as an option for no good reason. From reading the forums there are others here that feel the same way. To Linden Lab, I would remind you of what state you are in. One of the most liberal states in the country and place where civil law tends to lead to the plaintive in these cases. If this was to go to trial and it could, one therapist addressing a jury about emotional injuries and what do you think the outcome would be? Second, I would also remind you of one of the cases in California, the OJ Simpson case. In a criminal proceeding he was found not guilty but in a civil case he was. That is because in California the requirements for finding faults are a lot lower. Since this would be a civil case on emotional trauma you wouldn’t have your term of service to hide behind. Let’s look at the other grounds for legal action, and that would be Second Life as a source of income. Second Life is unique in the way that you can generate a source of income off of the platform. This is a good thing as it allows people that don’t have a place in the general workforce to have a productive and creative life. When you deprive those of that opportunity through no fault of their own, but due to an internal scandal, that raises certain questions that could be legally challenging. Linden Lab is within their rights to remove someone from the platform that does violate the rules, and this could and does lead to a loss of income for that person. The question arises when they change the rules and deprive someone of a source of income, which is what they are doing. When you change the rules and deprive someone of a source of income that they have become dependent on, well that could look very different in the eyes of the law. Your terms of service give you some shield, but those terms of service become null and void if they violate the law. The laws on income and the right to work in some states, California for one, are very clear. Now for the standard disclaimer, I am not a lawyer so what I’m expressing is my own options. But with that being said, if you are a victim of these new rules I would come together on platforms outside of Linden Labs control, reddit and Discord. Talk it over. If you live in California and have the means reach out to a legal consultant and show them this document. Let them tell you if there is a case here. I feel there are grounds on both reasons I have provided. To Linden Lab, if you are reading this, I would advise you to reconsider the new policies you have put in place. There is no legitimate reason for you to do so. You are causing a lot of stress and trauma for no reason and if it was to go to court there is a very good probability that you would lose the case. I’ve looked over some of the legal cases proceeding that have affected your company over the years and you do not have a good track record of winning in court. You have created a unique environment that allows people with physical and emotional disabilities to thrive and gain some semblance of a normal life. By removing this from them for no fault of their own that does indeed make you liable. According to your own site, and the law, a income source above a certain level require you to report the income proceeding to government sources for tax reasons. This makes income from Second Life a legitimate source. There are several civil organizations out there that might take issue with depriving people with disabilities of that source of income through no fault of their own. My not so legal advice to Linden Lab would be to walk back the new rules, for reevaluation, then quietly forget about them. At least consult the parts of the community you are doing most harm too and try to work with them instead of just using a hammer to beat them in to submission. As an outside observer, I don’t see this as a battle you can win without causing undue harm. quoting this person so people who missed it can see it 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowan Amore Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 7 minutes ago, frankyjake2333 said: Good Evening. While I’m not a lawyer I do have a good deal of knowledge working with the law. I’m also not a second life player but I do have a close friend that is heavily involved in the platform. She uses it as a form of therapy for a abusive childhood trauma through roleplaying. I have just spent the last two nights watching her have an emotional break down on about this issue. I wanted to post some comments but was begged not too on her account. So, I’ve created my own account to post a comment as an outside observer. I’m sure what I’m about to post will ruffle more than a few feathers and the post itself will be taken down immediately. If you are reading this, take a screenshot of it and post it everywhere; circulate it on reddit and in discord channels. My first comment is to Linden Lab itself. The motives behind the new Terms of Service are complete rubbish, keep that in mind as you read on. You had a scare and found nothing wrong but decided to deprive thousands of users of the joy they have had over years and anger them. How does this make good business sense? When your own internal investigation found nothing wrong the correct thing to do would have been to proceed with business as usual. You found nothing wrong, but you go out of your way to break something that helps so many people. That speaks very poorly of your management skills. But let’s get to the meat of the post. To the people that are suffering have you thought of legal action? Just read the entire post before you rule it out. I’ve looked over the Linden Labs terms of service (tos). They are not as bullet proof as they would have you believe. To an outsider this seems to be a poorly run company trying to recover from a internal scandal and is doing it very poorly. From my point of view there are two grounds for legal action not covered by the TOS. The first case for legal action is on the grounds of emotional distress. I’m sure many of you are already shaking your heads, but there are real grounds here. I watched my friend break down over two days. Her therapist is greatly concerned. The family role playing was assisting in her recovery from trauma. Now that has been removed as an option for no good reason. From reading the forums there are others here that feel the same way. To Linden Lab, I would remind you of what state you are in. One of the most liberal states in the country and place where civil law tends to lead to the plaintive in these cases. If this was to go to trial and it could, one therapist addressing a jury about emotional injuries and what do you think the outcome would be? Second, I would also remind you of one of the cases in California, the OJ Simpson case. In a criminal proceeding he was found not guilty but in a civil case he was. That is because in California the requirements for finding faults are a lot lower. Since this would be a civil case on emotional trauma you wouldn’t have your term of service to hide behind. Let’s look at the other grounds for legal action, and that would be Second Life as a source of income. Second Life is unique in the way that you can generate a source of income off of the platform. This is a good thing as it allows people that don’t have a place in the general workforce to have a productive and creative life. When you deprive those of that opportunity through no fault of their own, but due to an internal scandal, that raises certain questions that could be legally challenging. Linden Lab is within their rights to remove someone from the platform that does violate the rules, and this could and does lead to a loss of income for that person. The question arises when they change the rules and deprive someone of a source of income, which is what they are doing. When you change the rules and deprive someone of a source of income that they have become dependent on, well that could look very different in the eyes of the law. Your terms of service give you some shield, but those terms of service become null and void if they violate the law. The laws on income and the right to work in some states, California for one, are very clear. Now for the standard disclaimer, I am not a lawyer so what I’m expressing is my own options. But with that being said, if you are a victim of these new rules I would come together on platforms outside of Linden Labs control, reddit and Discord. Talk it over. If you live in California and have the means reach out to a legal consultant and show them this document. Let them tell you if there is a case here. I feel there are grounds on both reasons I have provided. To Linden Lab, if you are reading this, I would advise you to reconsider the new policies you have put in place. There is no legitimate reason for you to do so. You are causing a lot of stress and trauma for no reason and if it was to go to court there is a very good probability that you would lose the case. I’ve looked over some of the legal cases proceeding that have affected your company over the years and you do not have a good track record of winning in court. You have created a unique environment that allows people with physical and emotional disabilities to thrive and gain some semblance of a normal life. By removing this from them for no fault of their own that does indeed make you liable. According to your own site, and the law, a income source above a certain level require you to report the income proceeding to government sources for tax reasons. This makes income from Second Life a legitimate source. There are several civil organizations out there that might take issue with depriving people with disabilities of that source of income through no fault of their own. My not so legal advice to Linden Lab would be to walk back the new rules, for reevaluation, then quietly forget about them. At least consult the parts of the community you are doing most harm too and try to work with them instead of just using a hammer to beat them in to submission. As an outside observer, I don’t see this as a battle you can win without causing undue harm. None of the new rules prevent anyone from using the platform. 7 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathlen Onyx Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 (edited) 2 minutes ago, BriannaLovey said: quoting this person so people who missed it can see it Pretty sure no one missed it. A post from a non member that isn't a lawyer giving advice? I'll skip it. I'm sure this will be seen by most as heartless but it's not LL responsibility to make sure that those that use the platform don't have emotional breakdowns. Second Life is a platform, not a therapy site. Edited May 5 by Kathlen Onyx 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kei Niosaki Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 3 minutes ago, Kathlen Onyx said: Why sadly? Is it really that important for your interactions with those people who live on A rated land be with a child avatar? just because a sim is rated adult doesnt mean adult activities are taking place. many friends simply just rent a plot of land for a home on a sim rated adult, Why adult well that plot of land was a good price at the time. So Please stop fishing for reason to make child avies on adult land look bad 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BriannaLovey Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 Just now, Rowan Amore said: None of the new rules prevent anyone from using the platform. They introduce legal ambiguity. See the last hundred pages to see why that is a problem. 2 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madi Melodious Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 a freakin wall of text. no thanks 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starberry Passion Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 1 minute ago, Kathlen Onyx said: Life isn't always fair. Life is equally as awful to all when you have leaders treating everyone as the 99% so technically it itself is always fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowan Amore Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Kathlen Onyx said: Pretty sure no one missed it. A post from a non member that isn't a lawyer giving advice? I'll skip it. Aw come on. It was amusing! Edited May 5 by Rowan Amore 5 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BriannaLovey Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 Just now, Madi Melodious said: a freakin wall of text. no thanks tl;dr LL is bad at managing their company, and should walk back on the new rules so they don't cause more damage 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BilliJo Aldrin Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 2 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said: Only because you cannot "promote sexual conduct" and a brothel, by definition, is promoting sexual conduct. But I could be wandering Moderate land, maybe shopping, and my profile might say I'm an escort and so someone IMs me and we then go back to my home, also on Moderate land and do the deed for money. So I'm still "hooking" on moderate land, when you get down to it. The guy I was responding to said he had a brothel on moderate land which is not allowed, advertised or not. You can pick up a hooker anywhere, that's entirely different 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceka Cianci Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 5 minutes ago, Vivienne Schell said: The activist child player groups? Maybe they plan a march to LL HQ to set fire under Oberwolf´s bottom or something. Cause of these darned undies and all the terrible supression they suffer and all that. The more "grown up" child avatar player groups? They most probably watch out for skin creators updating their products and bomb Belleza and others with requests and get along evry well with the other changes . The rest of the planet? Sighs in relief or does not care at all. I'm hoping for the best.. Because the worst was no fun the last time around.. But then again, the land owners won't have to worry about things this time.. So probably won't be that bad this time around with all that kind of panic not going on.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Ravenheart Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 (edited) 11 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said: If they are a full time rp child, its not fair to expect them to change As an adult that is active in the adult and bdsm sides of SL and spends 95% of my time on Adult land, there are expectations that if I visit a G rated sim I have to be dressed PG and remove my fetish gear like my collar/leash (which holds personal value to me), I do not usually dress PG or moderate in any way and I have to conform to the rules of that land. All a child avatar has to do is throw on a free LL provided adult avatar and visit Adult sims if they want; it won't hurt them and it's not a big deal, Don't want to be an adult human, they can go as a Dinkie,, a robot, or anything besides a child avatar. Asking child avatars to not go to Adult land or to dress and appear appropriate if they do go, is not a big deal. Edited May 5 by Theresa Ravenheart 8 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathlen Onyx Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Kei Niosaki said: just because a sim is rated adult doesnt mean adult activities are taking place. many friends simply just rent a plot of land for a home on a sim rated adult, Why adult well that plot of land was a good price at the time. So Please stop fishing for reason to make child avies on adult land look bad I said no such thing. What I said was "is it THAT important for you to interact with those people as a child avatar on A rated land" You are still you and they are still they behind the avatar. If it's that important, have them visit you. Also, if you are going to break the TOS might as go all the way and continue to visit them. I mean it doesn't matter to you about the TOS right? Edited May 5 by Kathlen Onyx 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madi Melodious Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 3 minutes ago, BriannaLovey said: tl;dr LL is bad at managing their company, and should walk back on the new rules so they don't cause more damage if you read it sum it up. I'm not reading a thousand lines of some rambling nut ball. If it starts with "not a lawyer" odds are it someone crazy... pass 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowan Amore Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 4 minutes ago, BriannaLovey said: They introduce legal ambiguity. See the last hundred pages to see why that is a problem. No, they did not. I'm sure LL.consulted their actual lawyers, and not just someone who "knows a little about the law", when fashioning their ToS. No one has any expectations that SL will even be here tomorrow. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BilliJo Aldrin Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 2 minutes ago, Theresa Ravenheart said: As an adult that is active in the adult and bdsm sides of SL and spends 95% og my time on Adult land, there are expectations that if I visit a G rated sim I have to be dressed PG and remove my fetish gear like my collar/leash (which holds personal value to me), I do not usually dress that way and I have to conform to the rules of that land. All a child avatar has to do is throw on a free LL provided adult avatar and visit Adult sims if they want; it won't hurt them and it's not a big deal, Don't want to be an adult human, they can go as a Dinkie,, a robot, or anything besides a child avatar. Asking child avatars to not go to Adult land or to dress and appear appropriate if they do go, is not a big deal. ewww you visit G rated sims, that's an AR waiting to happen. Better clean up your profile first, that will get you ARed on G land 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vivienne Schell Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 8 minutes ago, BriannaLovey said: quoting this person so people who missed it can see it A real lawyer would sue, not blablabla. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissSweetViolet Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 (edited) 7 minutes ago, BriannaLovey said: tl;dr LL is bad at managing their company, and should walk back on the new rules so they don't cause more damage Having read what he posted and as a Second Life user for over 5 years and a part time user of a kid avatar and someone from the USA. That argument would not hold water. Also I would get a new therapist. If she's so dependent on SL that it is causing this much trouble, then she's become dependent and that therapist should have not been encouraging that. I have mental health issues too, and SL is a great escape for that, but my life is not and would not be over due to anything happening to SL as a platform. Edited May 5 by MissSweetViolet Spelling corrections. 4 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Ravenheart Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 6 minutes ago, Kei Niosaki said: just because a sim is rated adult doesnt mean adult activities are taking place. many friends simply just rent a plot of land for a home on a sim rated adult, Why adult well that plot of land was a good price at the time. So Please stop fishing for reason to make child avies on adult land look bad It's simple, Adult land is not for RL minors or child avatars, period. It's in the TOS. There is nothing to debate about it. If you want to go to adult land you have choices to make, go as a child av and get banned, throw on an adult avatar, or have your friends meet you somewhere safe and meant for you. Adult land is not and never should have allowed child avatars on it. And the way you keep pushing back on it, makes it look weird; no other child avatars (that's I've heard here) are making stink over that change. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starberry Passion Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 6 minutes ago, BriannaLovey said: quoting this person so people who missed it can see it I read this and I understand what they are saying and I get it, I have that trauma but it is not wanted by the community. It is true that it is therapeutic to most people and I don't like the fact that people are using actual children to compare to 3d Children but you have to understand, the community does not want this at any point. What this post was was about people with traumas using the platform to cope about a real life trauma that they had, which unfortunately will be overlooked. It's not fair but Linden Labs is a place of business and is trying to reach out to several other countries in order to make more profit. Linden Labs is for profit first and foremost and it is a smart move to get rid of something that can bar them from succeeding in making business with other entities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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