Sammy Huntsman Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 2 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: Not only useful, but maybe vital in this instance. LL has GOT to make a real effort to ensure that these new rules are well-publicized. Otherwise, there are going to be a lot of people running around in contravention of them without even knowing it. The most obvious instance is the "modesty layer": in theory, anyone who has agreed to this ToS and is wearing a child avatar without a modesty layer is AR-able. I would want some transparency on what defines a child avatar to them. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 (edited) 1 minute ago, Sammy Huntsman said: I would want some transparency on what defines a child avatar to them. I'd like that too; as Orwar points out above, that's a piece of the puzzle missing here. It would be really difficult to do, however. ETA: And a good instance of that is that (I'm pretty sure) the most popular kind of a*eplay in SL doesn't involve kiddie avatars at all: it's the "sl*tty teen student" and the "daddy's babygirl / incest" play that is most easy to find. Edited May 2 by Scylla Rhiadra 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starberry Passion Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 Just now, Sammy Huntsman said: I would want some transparency on what defines a child avatar to them. That's what I was saying! What defines a child avatar to them because to others it's always different. You can be an Asian person and someone will tell you you are a child because Asians typically look youthful, which is not the same as child. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid Nagy Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 Just now, Scylla Rhiadra said: It would be really difficult to do, however. I think even impossible. Common sense is the key here IMHO, from all sides. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starberry Passion Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 They should've just listed all the child avatars or just be like "We depict child avatars like this" and then give an example putting up something like "toddledoo, TotsiTeen, Tweenster" And gave a distictiong as to what a child head is as well. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid Nagy Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Sammy Huntsman said: Also, Zooby stopped making Child avatars. Due to what came out. That is their free choice of course. Sad to take such step in such a hurry, but the other merchants and creators in the same field will likely do a happy dance right now. Edited May 2 by Sid Nagy Typo. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 1 minute ago, Sid Nagy said: I think even impossible. Common sense is the key here IMHO, from all sides. Yep. On the whole, I think LL has historically erred on the side of NOT jumping to conclusions about avatars that might look like children, or about activities that some might deem "inappropriate." It's possible that has changed now, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Persephone Emerald Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 1 hour ago, Rowan Amore said: Being fully nude. Child avatar content creators are required to add a modesty layer which is baked into child avatar skins or bodies, is not transparent, does not match the skin tone, and may not be removed. This is one point where I expect many child avatar users will not be compliant. Avatars on the teen grid were supposed to have no genitalia or female nipples on their skin. They couldn't even remove their underwear layer. People created underwear layers that did show nipples and genitalia however. People sold mature skins to teens on the teen grid too. There is not going to be any way to stop child avatars from wearing adult or illegal child skins. All that can be done is for people to report them if they see them. The rest of the new rules, I fully support. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innula Zenovka Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 27 minutes ago, Mr Amore said: I don't think anyone was under any illusion of unacceptable activities for child avatars. These changes are a smokescreen to distract from the actual controversy, which hasn't been adequately addressed. From the blog post Quote We recently posted our initial response to community concerns about alleged violations of company and community policies by employees, contractors, and community members. Since that time, we have conducted multiple thorough investigations to look closely at whether there were specific infractions or problematic interactions that needed us to take action. The investigation determined that all Lindens and contractors have stayed in compliance with our own community guidelines, as well as unwritten, ethical guidelines. I do not make this statement lightly, and I know there will be plenty of discussion. What I can say is that there is no incentive, monetary or otherwise, for me to mislead the community. At some point, the community has to trust that we, the Lindens, do well when the community thrives. We may make mistakes along the way, and we know that our community will engage with us when we do. Second Life is an enormous virtual world and we have to walk a very fine line between policing and preserving freedoms while also protecting the future growth and health of Second Life as a platform that respects diversity and creative expression among our community. The findings did highlight opportunities for improvement. As a result, we are making updates to our internal policies to raise the standard for how Linden employees should respectfully engage with community members. This addresses multiple forms of engagement including how we present ourselves, how we interact with the community (even in moments of conflict), and how we minimize the perception of conflict of interest and favoritism in our interactions. Additionally, there have been specific actions we have initiated or finalized: What, if any, grounds do you have for going behind that by saying things haven't "been adequately addressed"? 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindens Keira Linden Posted May 2 Lindens Share Posted May 2 Hi all! I'm gonna admit that I haven't read every comment on here yet but I will be doing so shortly and responding where I can. Just a few things first: The only change to the Terms and Conditions is the update to the Child Avatar Policy The FAQ is a living doc, which means we know it is in no way complete right now. As questions come up here and through Support, we'll be adding more questions and answers to hopefully help clarify some of the changes. 11 26 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sammy Huntsman Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 2 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said: That is their free choice of course. Sad to take such step in such a hurry, but the other merchants ans creators in the same field will likely do a happy dance right now. That is also why I made the comment, they need to have a clear and transparent definition of how they define child avatars. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnek Fang Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 Now, we as a community need to decide what is a child avatar. I can easily see these rules being weaponized by bad actors who have a grudge against, say, anime-style avatars. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayashe Ninetails Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 7 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: The most obvious instance is the "modesty layer": in theory, anyone who has agreed to this ToS and is wearing a child avatar without a modesty layer is AR-able. I'm very confused as to how this is going to work. I assume it would be done at the skin level? That works fine if someone's using an actual child avatar body, but if they're in a regular adult body, with a regular adult skin, but they're aged down to a teen (for school roleplay or whateva), then how does that work exactly? According to the rules, it has to be baked-in to the skin or body - not simple BOM. So now at least some adult skin makers will need to make a line with those included, orrrrr....? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Persephone Emerald Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 58 minutes ago, Maitimo said: No part of a Moderate region can be re-rated as Adult. Whatever the region rating is, thats the maximum setting for any parcel within the region. You can choose to go down, make your parcel G instead of M, but you can't make it Adult. Private islands can change their rating, ad far as I know. I was in a roleplay sim that changed the maturity ratings on some of the regions several times back and forth. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 1 minute ago, Persephone Emerald said: This is one point where I expect many child avatar users will not be compliant. Avatars on the teen grid were supposed to have no genitalia or female nipples on their skin. They couldn't even remove their underwear layer. People created underwear layers that did show nipples and genitalia however. People sold mature skins to teens on the teen grid too. There is not going to be any way to stop child avatars from wearing adult or illegal child skins. All that can be done is for people to report them if they see them. The rest of the new rules, I fully support. I think that this is one of those common sense things, though. It's not going to be evident that a fully-clothed avatar is not wearing a modesty layer unless one derenders their clothing. So, in most cases, where the child is wearing clothes, this isn't going to matter. No one will even know (unless they are derendering the clothes, and Governance would be able to detect that. I suspect you'll get into more trouble derendering a child's clothing than by not wearing a modesty layer under mesh or BOM clothes.) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Hexem Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 The bit about no kids in adult regions... Thats the one thing they've done here that makes some sense. 14 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid Nagy Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said: Private islands can change their rating, ad far as I know. I was in a roleplay sim that changed the maturity ratings on some of the regions several times back and forth. Yes, the region owner can with private regions, but only for the complete region. There is no way to nominate each parcel carved from it in a different rating. Edited May 2 by Sid Nagy A little clarification of my text. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindens Keira Linden Posted May 2 Lindens Share Posted May 2 1 hour ago, Qie Niangao said: I do think they need a Forums thread with somebody to provide official answers to questions that come up, before that Roundtable. Otherwise a lot will go unanswered, just due to time constraint. Hi 👋 I'll be answering questions as I can here in the thread or adding to the FAQ 5 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starberry Passion Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 2 minutes ago, Keira Linden said: Hi all! I'm gonna admit that I haven't read every comment on here yet but I will be doing so shortly and responding where I can. Just a few things first: The only change to the Terms and Conditions is the update to the Child Avatar Policy The FAQ is a living doc, which means we know it is in no way complete right now. As questions come up here and through Support, we'll be adding more questions and answers to hopefully help clarify some of the changes. Yeah but people will still be confused with what a child avatar is, especially with "child presenting" thrown in there. Like What about anime avatars that are slim/skinny? What is they were a petite adult person? What if it was a maitreya or a legacy wearing the petite add on to have an average chest size? 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowan Amore Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 7 minutes ago, Starberry Passion said: They should've just listed all the child avatars or just be like "We depict child avatars like this" and then give an example putting up something like "toddledoo, TotsiTeen, Tweenster" And gave a distictiong as to what a child head is as well. Some teen avatars (under 18) use Maitreya and Lelutka so tagging a specific brand won't work. It's easier to find clothing and accessories for the main stream bodies/heads. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denim Robonaught Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 22 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: No, this is true of mainland regions as well. The main difference is that we have less control of the ratings for a mainland region, even if one owns the entire thing. For instance, an Adult mainland region must be in Zindra. You forgot Horizons community. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codex Alpha Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 It's not rocket science. TOS says nothing about what defines a child avatar, but how it is used. If a child avatar is used to fool or solicit sexual based interactions from another minor on the service, or being used in sexual acts... then it's bannable. Child avatars are not a bannable offense, it's how someone is using them as always. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NymphAspect Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 "Child-like facial features" is not an objective characteristic UNLESS you apply technical rigor to the anatomical structure. In this case there are differences between a child and an adult. There are a lot of people that claim their avatar is 18, which is a legal adult in most countries. How are you going to 'objectively' determine if the facial features of an 18-year-old vs. a 17-year-old? Same goes for clothing. I have, in my inventory, a sweatshirt with a teddy bear on the front. Is that childish clothing? None of these things alone are objective when it comes to determining a violation of a rule. When you start combining traits, however, then you start to get a little closer. Is the avatar child-sized, has child-like proportions, is roleplaying as a child, is using child-like speech, is dressed like a child (still not sure about this one), AND engaging in something they shouldn't be? If all the evidence lines up properly, then sure, I can see how that would be a violation. Simply being short, having a youthful face, and wearing a teddy-bear themed shirt is, I would argue, NOT enough to make a judgement. 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 1 minute ago, Ayashe Ninetails said: I'm very confused as to how this is going to work. I assume it would be done at the skin level? That works fine if someone's using an actual child avatar body, but if they're in a regular adult body, with a regular adult skin, but they're aged down to a teen (for school roleplay or whateva), then how does that work exactly? According to the rules, it has to be baked-in to the skin or body - not simple BOM. So now at least some adult skin makers will need to make a line with those included, orrrrr....? Yeah, I definitely think that this is most problematic aspect of these new rules. Yes, new skins will be required -- but (and this is just a guess!) I think that the new rules are more focused upon obvious minors -- "pre-teens" -- than teens. That's not to say that there is anything in these rules that clearly does not apply to representations of teens, but because the line between how a teen might be represented, and how a 19 year old might look is so very fuzzy, I think LL will be paying much less attention to that. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starberry Passion Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 Just now, Rowan Amore said: Some teen avatars (under 18) use Maitreya and Lelutka so tagging a specific brand won't work. It's easier to find clothing and accessories for the main stream bodies/heads. They shouldn't use an adult body marketed towards adult to make child stuff in the first place. It's marketed towards adults, just like Legacy. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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