38 attachment points are not enough

[Marianne Little]

I do not think 1 attachment point from the FS bridge would be enough to help... It is just one.

The other things like huggers, spankers and all the other stuff worn when only taking pictures would be what I took off first.

But I do not say how others do their SL, take off this and that because I would take it off. It is not my business. If they need so many attachment points in their SL, it is valid.

I believe it would not hurt SL and performance for others if the number of attachment points was raised to 50. I think so few would use it, it would not have an effect on SL in general. We are many more using 20-30 points, and I can not imagine wearing over 38, even if the number was raised to 50.

I can imagine using over 38 for pictures in very rare cases, but not outside that.

 

[Ajay McDowwll]

I use 16 attachment points before I start getting dressed that are made up of my head, body, hair, one deformer, and jewelry I never take off, in addition to the Firestorm Bridge.  That excludes the huds for my head and body, as I take them off once any adjustments have been made.  I used to wonder how on earth anyone could possibly use up all their attachment points... and then I got more into photography, and into more fantasy-related outfits, etc. 

Yes, it's easy to use up all 38 at those times.  Mostly it's a non-issue -- literally fantasy outfits and photography are the only instances where it occurs for me -- but there are times when more are needed.  Thankfully my preferred creators for fantasy looks include many whose releases are modify, and I link like the dickens, but it's by no means a foolproof solution.

I'm Premium Plus and I still get 38 attachment points; Cristiano, I have no idea how you got so fortunate, but I salute you

Edited March 14 by Ajay McDowwll

[Love Zhaoying]

53 minutes ago, Ajay McDowwll said:

I use 16 attachment points before I start getting dressed that are made up of my head, body, hair, one deformer, and jewelry I never take off, in addition to the Firestorm Bridge. 

Ahah! I did not have deformers on my radar.

[Blush Bravin]

26 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Ahah! I did not have deformers on my radar.

Though I can't ever remember using up all my attachment spots, it was nice when I got into my LaraX because that cleared up three attachment spots for deformers, which were no longer needed. 

[Arielle Popstar]

40 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

Though I can't ever remember using up all my attachment spots, it was nice when I got into my LaraX because that cleared up three attachment spots for deformers, which were no longer needed. 

I only use one but some avatars I've looked at have as many as six or seven deformers. Mostly seem to be those on Reborn.

Edited March 14 by Arielle Popstar

[Love Zhaoying]

2 hours ago, Marianne Little said:

I can imagine using over 38 for pictures in very rare cases, but not outside that.

I saw an earlier post also about using attachments for photos / pictures. Is that just for lighting, or..?

[Ayashe Ninetails]

For photography, it's lighting, particles, and props for me.

I don't think I've ever gotten close to 38 attachments, though. Never really knew what the limit was, either. I'm a little surprised now that I think about it, considering I often wear a lot of arm/hand/torso mods and wings and animated body overlays and head wear (including my trusty cat who sits on my head) and companions. Hmm. I'll have to check the next time I throw something crazy on.

 

[UnilWay SpiritWeaver]

5 hours ago, Eowyn Southmoor said:

I remember a few years ago i had similar issues with the FS AO - the animations seemed to slide for several seconds before actually looking normal.

Yeah...

There are 3 ways SL can do animations:

1. Some code that says "play this animation". It will play once, or if a looped animation play again. The code might include something to 'play it again' in case there's a non-looped animation stuffed into an AO.
   1. This is the old method for AOs. It's manual and it's why scripted AOs used to break in no-script areas.
2. Firestorm or other TPV built in system. I don't know what these do but they seem to do something different from the first method and the method I'll mention next. These always seem to have some kind of 'lag' when switching. You'll start running and it will take a moment to get off of walk, or whatever. Once you know what to look for you kind of can't stop seeing this lag issue, maybe even imagining it when it's not there - but when it is it's all you can see for a moment.
3. The "new" method is to set your animation state. As in change your SL default animations. This only requires scripts be working when you first run it, or when you change your default. BUT it doesn't "stick" across logins so you have to run it once each time you log in. New AOs just put this on a long timer. So... every minute or so they'll change your default. Enter a no-script area and you just keep using what you were on with no issues. This is also on the 'server side' so never has 'lag'. They added this in 2013, but even 10 years later most animations makers are still packing their animations in an old 2003 era AO... So you kind of have to get this one yourself from a script maker and toss it into a prim along with your animations yourself because animations makers can't be bothered to grab 10 year old free kits that will update all the AOs they sell.

 

Having a MOD body, I can actually put my AO and a lot of other things inside parts of the body - cutting down on attachment points. I've been a bit lazy though. So what I actually do is link all my mod huds together, and stuff some custom things in them. And then I've done things like link together body part addons (reborn waifu linked to reborn) and keep a couple copies for each configuration because doing this breaks the 'HUD' that reborn makes for it's body (they could have scripted to prevent that, but didn't, because it's a little more complicated to do).

If you have a no-mod body - look for anything you "almost always have on" and if it's bento or rigged and doesn't need it's scripts once you've customized it - link it to other things that are usually worn with it.

 

 

Edited March 14 by UnilWay SpiritWeaver

[UnilWay SpiritWeaver]

1 hour ago, Arielle Popstar said:

I only use one but some avatars I've looked at have as many as six or seven deformers. Mostly seem to be those on Reborn.

I've got 2 on reborn. I linked one of them to the body. The other had a script and an animation inside of it - so I just moved those to inside the body on a part that didn't have other scripts. Cut 3 attachment uses down to 1 that way.

Sneaky thing is that even if a deformer is no-mod, if what's inside is an animation, you can rip animations out of no-mod items. So grab them out, put them into a part of something else, and google up a short script to keep it playing (I wrote one that checks every 10 seconds or so).

 

Edited March 14 by UnilWay SpiritWeaver

[Marianne Little]

14 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I saw an earlier post also about using attachments for photos / pictures. Is that just for lighting, or..?

With Firestorm, we can lock the camera in the position we want, it is very useful if I set up for a picture, and suddenly see that I need to change something in the outfit. Like adjusting the grip on a purse so it does not clip in my leg.

In FS camera control it it 2 buttons, one with an eye and an arrow 'up', one with an arrow 'down'. I can lock the camera when I press the 'eye down', then zoom closer, fix what is wrong, and hit the Firestorm 'eye up' button again to go back to the correct angle.

This can only save one placement, in HUDs for photography it is probably lots of options. I am sure it is very useful for those who blog. I think I bought one of those HUDs, but it is too much to fiddle with for me.

I made some projected lights myself, to attach to my avatar. I also have some special lights that I got with tattoos that use materials. That is stuff we attach. I use rezzed projected light on my sky platform, so I do not attach many projectors at a time.

My homemade set of projectors to wear has 5 cubes with projected light textures I change myself, and since it is linked it is only 1 attachment point. It is very crude, I must select each light manually and change angle, turn it on/off and change color/radius/intensity. I bet it is lots of systems where all is in a HUD for easier use. That would use more attachment points.

I 'fly by my the seat of my pants' when I take pictures, I am not using all the attachments one can buy.

[Audrey Vandervoort]

I just want to add that I use Firestorm's area search to scan avatar attachments, instead of using one of those HUDs. If you go into the Filter settings of Area Search, you can set it to allow attachments to be scanned or even only show you attachments. Then, you can use Find to scan someone by putting their name in the "Owner" field. 

[Cristiano Midnight]

On 3/14/2024 at 11:14 AM, Ajay McDowwll said:

I'm Premium Plus and I still get 38 attachment points; Cristiano, I have no idea how you got so fortunate, but I salute you

I had no idea there was even a difference until a friend complained they were out of attachments. I am thankful for the extra attachments, though I don’t come close to even 38 most of the time.

[AmeliaJ08]

On the whole... yes, I agree that it isn't enough and it would be nice if it was increased.

I don't often run into the limit now that I made all my own deformers so I can link them all into one and save a bunch of attachment points but most people can't do that and with a complex enough outfit, jewelry etc you can very easily run into the limit.

Of course more mod clothes and items would be a great thing since people could at least link them. Jewelry for example, earrings could be linked once you have adjusted them into a single attachment... for those who know how to link things anyway.

 

[AmeliaJ08]

On 3/14/2024 at 8:37 AM, Marianne Little said:

The mod versus no mod is a big problem for me.

I said for maybe 10 years ago: "No mod, no buy". That did not last long. I can not do it. It is so few that allow mod, and it gets worse every year. Creators use color change and texture change HUDs and set the item to no modify.

If I only buy modify, I am left with few options... 😪

And the creators do not notice if one of 10 000 drop their products. I have never seen others outside of the forum wish for modify rights in SL.

Yeah...

I will say (and hope that creators are listening) that I do frequently go back to the ones I know that allow mod though, it's a big selling point and I love them and their stuff for it.

 

[steeljane42]

Linking is not a panacea, sadly, just a workaround. If it's for the picture purposes, then sure, can link some pieces together, because after the idea and setup are finalized there unlikely any big changed needed anymore.

But for everyday usage the negative side of linking is a bit much. For example some fantasy stuff. Any little texture based change that is not simple manual tint will require redoing whole linking process from zero, because HUDs won't work properly anymore. Want to change gems textures, metals, feathers etc? Right, instead of doing it right when and where you want it, you'd have to go back home or any other place with rez tights, putting unlinked copies on, doing changes, rezzing it on the ground, linking, picking back and finally wearing outfit with said changes. Not a very viable solution in my book.

And with an ability to link rigged mod pieces together the only possible negative side of having more attachment points is gone for ages. Because anyone already can link a 50m triangles piece together taking just one point, and this piece will likely be more than people would normally wear on the current 38 point. Or 138 points. So having more would really be just more for the convenience purposes, rather than "wearing more triangles".

Edited March 16 by steeljane42

[SueWorthly]

As for the Firestorm Wiki saying 'A “broken” bridge can also affect movement', the bridge ( https://wiki.firestormviewer.org/fs_bridge ) affects your movement with the optional flight assist (it makes you avatar fly faster) and the movement lock (e.g. if trolls tries to push you, they can't). It can also listen for collar commands to turn off the built-in AO, but it don't think it controls or affects the built-in AO animations.

Edit: I'd add that once I had a broken bridge, with the movement lock engaged, so I was more or less stuck in place until I recreated the bridge. I think this is what they meant with the "broken" bridge that can affect your movement wrongly.

Edited March 16 by SueWorthly

[AmeliaJ08]

3 hours ago, SueWorthly said:

As for the Firestorm Wiki saying 'A “broken” bridge can also affect movement', the bridge ( https://wiki.firestormviewer.org/fs_bridge ) affects your movement with the optional flight assist (it makes you avatar fly faster) and the movement lock (e.g. if trolls tries to push you, they can't). It can also listen for collar commands to turn off the built-in AO, but it don't think it controls or affects the built-in AO animations.

Edit: I'd add that once I had a broken bridge, with the movement lock engaged, so I was more or less stuck in place until I recreated the bridge. I think this is what they meant with the "broken" bridge that can affect your movement wrongly.

I have noticed a broken bridge affecting movement too. It frequently happens to me if I get "shot" down by an orb when flying my helicopter and end up on the ocean floor, I often cannot move when that happens (not always) and I learned that a way of fixing this condition is to use the rebuild Firestorm bridge menu tool thing.

 

[SpiritSparrow Skydancer]

Not to interrupt the heated animation convo, but how do you find out how many attachments you have on you without counting in inventory?

Avatar-now wearing! doh!

Oh nvm I found it, I appear to have 24 attachments.

Edited March 18 by SpiritSparrow Skydancer

[Nalates Urriah]

On 3/14/2024 at 8:03 AM, Marianne Little said:

I believe it would not hurt SL and performance for others if the number of attachment points was raised to 50. I think so few would use it, it would not have an effect on SL in general. We are many more using 20-30 points, and I can not imagine wearing over 38, even if the number was raised to 50.

 

 

I disagree. I think it will be a problem. Residents can misuse anything and usually do.

With 38 allowable attachments I see people with ARC >800,000 and often over 1,000,000... Depending on where you are you see more or fewer of these high ARC people. I am always surprised when I see a nearly nude pole dancer with a massive ARC.

[CaitlinParker]

I roughly have anywhere from 23 to 28 attachments on out of 38.

Would I like to have more?  Yes.

Just make 50 points of attachment the baseline for all avis.

[Spiffy Voxel]

16 hours ago, Nalates Urriah said:

With 38 allowable attachments I see people with ARC >800,000 and often over 1,000,000... Depending on where you are you see more or fewer of these high ARC people. I am always surprised when I see a nearly nude pole dancer with a massive ARC.

Since my default cut-off point for ARC is 350,000 (and could probably go lower without much impact on most other avatars around me), I suspect I wouldn't even see those folks with ARC pushing 800,000+!

On the odd occasion where I do see someone appear as a Jellydoll, I'll temporarily render them just to see what they might have done to push their ARC that high, then turn that exception off again.

Thankfully, most of my friends dress sensibly so I keep Always Render Friends enabled. 😌

[Modulated]

Here's a radical thought: Limit absolute complexity to 100k max, and then lower the attachment allowance to 25. This would maybe help people make better choices about the things they wear and attach. I know this  will be unpopular but I think it would make SL better overall.

Edited March 19 by Modulated

[steeljane42]

1 minute ago, Modulated said:

Here's a radical thought: Limit absolute complexity to 100k max, and then lower the attachment allowance to 25. This would maybe help people make better choices about the things they wear and attach. I know this  will be unpopular but I think it would make SL better overall.

With the gamed complexity formula that is going on for as long as mesh exists? Yeah, it's definitely will be an unpopular idea. It's funny to see some people (like above) still think that ARC matters one bit. There are 4.5m triangle attachments with 3.5k "complexity".

Here was Beq (lead developer of Firestorm) had to say about it not too long ago.

 

[Arielle Popstar]

1 minute ago, Modulated said:

Here's a radical thought: Limit absolute complexity to 100k max, and then lower the attachment allowance to 25. This would maybe help people make better choices about the things they wear and attach. I know this  will be unpopular but I think it would make SL better overall.

Not really, the problem is the creators who put the high arc items for sale, not the unknowing customers who buy and then wear it. The Lab could just prevent high arc items from being uploaded and put for sale in the first place. Another option is that instead of the Complexity scale defaulting to 350,000, SL gives the option of a viewer to limit the avatar viewing distance. If one could limit themselves to only viewing the 5-10 closest people, the arc thing wouldn't be much of a deal.

[Modulated]

17 minutes ago, steeljane42 said:

With the gamed complexity formula that is going on for as long as mesh exists? Yeah, it's definitely will be an unpopular idea. It's funny to see some people (like above) still think that ARC matters one bit. There are 4.5m triangle attachments with 3.5k "complexity".

Here was Beq (lead developer of Firestorm) had to say about it not too long ago.

 

If you keep up with the third party viewer meetings, Beq, the developer of FS, is in favor of forced complexity limits. This was brought up at the most recent meeting, by Beq.  I know what I am talking about, thank you.