Why I Don't Like PBR

[Porky Gorky]

42 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

The STUFF in my house, I couldn't care less about but not even being able to see my avatar?

Having blundered my way through learning how to create EEP’s in the last few weeks, I have created some that work well with both my really old content and my new PBR, but only from the outside, when lit from the sky. Interiors are a whole different matter though. The only option seems to be to add lighting. Not a bad thing for PBR as it looks great with lighting and reflection probes but it feels wasteful using lights to achieve the look of natural daylight in interior spaces.  

Edited March 5 by Porky Gorky

[Arielle Popstar]

11 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said:

Presumably you're talking about creators here, as customers do not need to learn anything. They rez their PBR house and it's already set up for them, it just works. If they use an old EEP, the sky doesn't fall, and the PBR house still looks better than their neighbors legacy one (assuming its an actually good creation).

So then what exactly does a creator have to learn? How to make a PBR material? Well if they're using Blender, they were already making PBR materials and had to convert them to work with the legacy renderer. For most creators creating in PBR removes Second Life specific steps of the content creation process. It makes it easier. Speaking as a creator who uses PBR, authoring materials for Second Life has become faster.

 

I assume @Porky Gorky was talking to consumers when he said: Surely it’s not complicated? Create a varied range of EEP settings then test them on the various types of content. Pick the one that works best for use as the default.

So he is wanting consumers to go through their EEP choices and make the best selection and or make changes to it for the best look. At least those who can. As Rowan already pointed the default ones are not adequate and leave the interior too dark to see properly. 

[Porky Gorky]

11 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

So he is wanting consumers to go through their EEP choices and make the best selection and or make changes to it for the best look. At least those who can. As Rowan already pointed the default ones are not adequate and leave the interior too dark to see properly. 

No, I am talking about the default EEP here which is  LL's responsibility. A decent default EEP would hopefully negate the need for people to change their EEP settings at all if they dont want to.

Edited March 5 by Porky Gorky

[Arielle Popstar]

2 minutes ago, Porky Gorky said:

No, I am talking about the default EEP here which is  LL's responsibility. A decent default EEP would hopefully negate the need to people to change their EEP settings at all if they dont want to.

So then we run into the problem of:

2 hours ago, Extrude Ragu said:

I sat down and started going through all the system environments and applying them to myself one by one. None of them look 'wrong' with my own PBR content. Sure they can probably look 'better' if I edit the old environment and give it HDRI scale etc. But are they broken without it? no.

No easy answer is there for Creator or Consumer? We are both left with a supposedly enhanced look that will likely not please a portion of the buyers. Is your PBR setting going to be mod so the consumer can at least change that if need be?

[Porky Gorky]

1 hour ago, Arielle Popstar said:

No easy answer is there for Creator or Consumer? We are both left with a supposedly enhanced look that will likely not please a portion of the buyers. Is your PBR setting going to be mod so the consumer can at least change that if need be?

Well I think there is an easy answer, which is for LL to provide a default environment fit for purpose. Content creators can use an equivalent HDRI map when authoring PBR if they want to and consumers can place legacy and PBR into the environment with acceptable visual results. That surely has to be the goal for LL. If people want to deviate from the default and start experimenting with other EEP’s then that's their prerogative, but it should not be a requirement.

Personally I won't be providing recommended EEP settings with PBR content because the PBR / glft  rollout still seems to be in beta and still subject to change at any given moment. I will just support customers if they ask.

Edited March 5 by Porky Gorky

[Flea Yatsenko]

When they tried to solve the problem of PBR looking the same in SL and GLTF tools, they managed to really throw a wrench into how users change their environment settings. Sounded good in theory when they were trying to make GLTF tools like Blender and SP have consistency with SL. But it's clear in doing so they completely messed up EEP and how things look for users.

I feel like LL expected users to come up with good EEP settings to fill in the void, like SL users usually do. But all the old EEP settings should be moved to "legacy" to make it clear they aren't going to be plug and play with PBR. Which was a really big mistake because nothing angers people like an update that they don't think they need that manages to make them jump through hoops to get things working the way they were.

Am I wrong to think that these dark room issues are because of the auto-generated reflection probes at ground level? I haven't played too much but it feels like if you make an enclosed space in the sky you don't end up with dark rooms. Wouldn't it have been better to skip the ground level reflection probes and make it an upgrade, i.e. you buy a house or whatever with probes and lighting set up? With the auto generated probes it feels more like people are getting reflection probes without any lights and it's completely breaking everything, when you need both to get proper results.

[PekeNL]

[Cinnamon Mistwood]

8 minutes ago, PekeNL said:

Nice way to reduce all the well thought out issues people have with PBR and how it was released to them just being stupid.  

Way to go!

[Love Zhaoying]

It is a little interesting how this thread became the "same old" name-calling, rush to judgement, "you're wrong", etc.! 

🙂 

 

[Zalificent Corvinus]

4 hours ago, Porky Gorky said:

Surely it’s not complicated? Create a varied range of EEP settings then test them on the various types of content. Pick the one that works best for use as the default.

Are you sure you have only been AWOL for 12 years?

A couple of years back, LL posted a collection of "SLB Celebration Staff Group Photos", by department.

One showed the avatars of the 5 members of LL's QA department. I was genuinely shocked, as I'd never seen any evidence that they HAD a QA department, or that anyone in it even showed up for work, let alone actually DID any.

 

LL Standard Operating Procedure, has been basically, a 5 Step Program 

1. Develop thing on Staff Only Alpha Micro Grid, and give up half way though, 

2. Give it a whole 5 mins of "testing" by the coder who made it, on an empty flat region on the Beta Grid, 

3. Declare it a Public Beta RC build, and wait while some of the cashcows *cough* customers try it.

4. Ignore all negative feedback about the dysfunctionality of the half finished mess,

5. Declare it Release build 1.0, and "Working As intended",.

 

[PekeNL]

4 minutes ago, Cinnamon Mistwood said:

Nice way to reduce all the well thought out issues people have with PBR and how it was released to them just being stupid.  

Way to go!

I honestly don't think PBR itself is the issue. There's 3 textures you need and 1 of them has 3 different channels with different types of maps. It's pretty well documented how PBR works.

The issues people have with PBR has more to do with LL's horrid attempt at implementing it. That and I truly believe there's a bit too much focus on 'OH FANCY MIRROR EFFECTS'.

Edit: yes I know there's also emission , but that's not always required.

Edited March 5 by PekeNL
derp

[Zalificent Corvinus]

3 hours ago, Porky Gorky said:

Having blundered my way through learning how to create EEP’s in the last few weeks

Most SecondLifers don't know how to create or edit EEP's at all.

 

3 hours ago, Porky Gorky said:

it feels wasteful using lights to achieve the look of natural daylight in interior spaces

It IS wasteful, remember? "Half finished implementation of a cut down version of the most basic PBR specification pushed out 2 to 3 years too early with no proper testing".

 

3 hours ago, Porky Gorky said:

A decent default EEP would hopefully negate the need for people to change their EEP settings at all if they dont want to.

It would require them to CHANGE to the default EEP from the one they have been using for years.

 

2 hours ago, Porky Gorky said:

That surely has to be the goal for LL

No, their goal is what it's always been. "If we crowbar in [buzzword feature] then leet gamers will come here and love us and give us all their money because [buzzword feature] right? If we code it they WILL come!"

They added pathfinding, in the belief that prim zombie statures smart enough to lurch AROUND a 3 ft high wall, would entice 40 million Steam Gamers to give up the Resident Evil franchise, and Call of Duty franchise, and Medal of Honor franchise, and pay $72 a year to shoot plywood cubes at lurching prim zombies in a Premium Only access Hunting Region.

The plan didn't work.

 

 

[Rowan Amore]

16 minutes ago, PekeNL said:

The issues people have with PBR has more to do with LL's horrid attempt at implementing it.

Um, that's what I've been saying.

[Qie Niangao]

10 minutes ago, PekeNL said:

Edit: yes I know there's also emission , but that's not always required.

Very rarely, in fact, so I'm irked when people say PBR demands so much more texture acreage than before.

But perhaps other than reflectivity, emissivity is the one quality most nerfed pre-PBR because it was coded in the alpha channel of the diffusemap, with the result that graduated emissivity was simply impossible on partially transparent surfaces. Granted, not a lot of call for that (at least not on dry land) but there was no way to do it at all with Blinn-Phong.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

58 minutes ago, PekeNL said:

I am sure this was very satisfying to post, but it is unhelpful to say the least, and comes across as smug, arrogant, and dismissive.

I'm hopeful that was not your intention. 

Have you read through any of this thread? Or any of the others on PBR?

If you DO wish to be helpful, you'll do so, and in the light of that additional context, might address what LL got wrong, and what they and we -- ordinary residents -- can do to redress it.

This thread and others have had many defenders of PBR who have provided information and assistance. Wouldn't you rather be one of those people?

[Love Zhaoying]

Sometimes I think we should put the defenders and haters in a locked room, or a cage match or something!

 

[arton Rotaru]

Edited March 5 by arton Rotaru

[Arielle Popstar]

1 hour ago, arton Rotaru said:

Better idea is to throw the ones who made PBR into the lions den

[Qie Niangao]

The "competition" I'd watch would put the "haters" in an arena from which they can all leave in glory only when they agree on one "standard" PBR-friendly Environment in which all their desired content looks good.

… because I've come to doubt that any such Environment—let alone a folder of them—could ever exist.

Prove me wrong. Double-dog dare ya.

[Porky Gorky]

2 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

The "competition" I'd watch would put the "haters" in an arena from which they can all leave in glory only when they agree on one "standard" PBR-friendly Environment in which all their desired content looks good.

If it's a competition you want, let's all sign up at PBR.com and become Professional Bull Riders (which is a real thing). Whoever comes top in the standings next season gets to choose the default PBR EEP.

Edit - On reflection I think we should forget this idea, it’s a load of old bullocks!

Edited March 6 by Porky Gorky

[Theresa Tennyson]

16 hours ago, Porky Gorky said:

Having blundered my way through learning how to create EEP’s in the last few weeks, I have created some that work well with both my really old content and my new PBR, but only from the outside, when lit from the sky. Interiors are a whole different matter though. The only option seems to be to add lighting. Not a bad thing for PBR as it looks great with lighting and reflection probes but it feels wasteful using lights to achieve the look of natural daylight in interior spaces.  

I can see how that would be a problem - if that was the standard behavior of the viewer. However, using both the Linden viewer and the current Firestorm beta, that's just not what I see. I use them basically at default settings, with shadows on. No non default shadow probes. "Midday" is bright, even in an enclosed space with no lights on the ground.

From what I've seen, the big thing that needs to happen for things to be consistent and usable is the auto-exposure system that automatically moderates light levels just like the pupil and iris of your eyes do. My guess is that auto-exposure is off/flaking out for "dark room at noon" people, but haven't found a way to turn it off and I've been looking for it.

[Love Zhaoying]

Just saw a change in the official viewer that lets you turn off the PBR "rendering type"..

 

[Frionil Fang]

37 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Just saw a change in the official viewer that lets you turn off the PBR "rendering type"..

That doesn't "turn PBR off", it just disables rendering of anything using PBR materials. Anything else is unaffected, including the lighting.

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Frionil Fang said:

42 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Just saw a change in the official viewer that lets you turn off the PBR "rendering type"..

That doesn't "turn PBR off", it just disables rendering of anything using PBR materials. Anything else is unaffected, including the lighting.

I stand corrected. However, it should (may?) make SOME people happy (if that is even possible)!

 

[Chic Aeon]

53 minutes ago, Frionil Fang said:

That doesn't "turn PBR off", it just disables rendering of anything using PBR materials. Anything else is unaffected, including the lighting.

So does that mean that the object with PBR "disappears"?  What if ONLY one material of the object uses PBR as well as legacy textures (like a mirror surface maybe)?   Would you see most of the object but not the part with PBR materials OR if it has legacy texture too would you still see the whole object?