Yet another "thinking out aloud" topic. (About why I play a female avatar often. Relates to "masculinity")

[Gopi Passiflora]

Like other men who play as female avatars, I admit one of my reasons for doing so are the typical ulterior ones (I'd prefer to look at a woman than man, etc.) There are also maybe less nefarious reasons I'd so as well (want to experience life from different perspectives and so forth.)

However in this topic I'd like to relate to what I was like growing up and perhaps what I'm like now. It involves the concept of "masculinity" and the pressure for boys and men to conform to this ideal. I was a 90s American kid (born in 1986.) In the 90s ideals were somewhat less progressive than they are today. LGBTQIA+ weren't as widely accepted as the use of the terms "gay" and "*****" as insults were commonplace, especially among boys and young men. And masculinity was held in high regard in society and promoted widely among the media. McDonald's had action figures and vehicles for "boy toys", and dolls and plushies for "girl toys".

I never perceived myself as particularly "masculine" in my life, even though I was subject to peer pressure and bullying about it. I was not a strong or physically imposing person. I was also very mild-mannered and quiet. I wasn't really interested in playing sports or play fighting. I mentioned the McDonald's toys before; in addition to the "boy toys" I also had no qualms about getting the "girl toys" if I were interested in them as well. As my school classmates made fun of Barney the Dinosaur for being purple and thus "gay", I didn't join in their chants. And speaking of those insults, people used them against me and that reinforced my belief that I wasn't very masculine. (Although I think they made fun of me more for my seriousness, high sensitivity, and social awkwardness.)

I still am rather mild-mannered as I was as a kid, but I think one of the reasons I play women in video games (and in turn virtual worlds) now, is because of my previous experiences of not feeling masculine. I mean, I don't think I'm particularly "feminine" either (I once described myself as "middle of the road" in terms of masculinity and femininity.) But given this fact I can't really relate to the  hyper masculine ideal in addition to the other more common reasons I have, I think I would gravitate toward playing as female characters/avatars.

Tl;dr: I think one of the reasons I play female avatars/characters in virtual worlds is because I never felt really "masculine" in my life, in combination with other more typical reasons like "admiring characters", "wanting to see different perspectives", etc.

[Solar Legion]

Gopi, the 'ideals' and 'idea' of 'masculinity' that we grew up with (hi, '83 here) are quite frankly just as toxic as the ideas we see being pushed today by those 'pushing back' against 'the feminizing of men' (I shuddered at typing that).

Frankly all of that BS did a lot of damage and ... Well look around, some are doubling down on it these days

[Gopi Passiflora]

1 minute ago, Solar Legion said:

Gopi, the 'ideals' and 'idea' of 'masculinity' that we grew up with (hi, '83 here) are quite frankly just as toxic as the ideas we see being pushed today by those 'pushing back' against 'the feminizing of men' (I shuddered at typing that).

Frankly all of that BS did a lot of damage and ... Well look around, some are doubling down on it these days

I agree, I guess it's still prevalent today.

[Solar Legion]

2 minutes ago, Gopi Passiflora said:

I agree, I guess it's still prevalent today.

Prevalent and in places even worse than it was when we were growing up.

[Love Zhaoying]

19 minutes ago, Gopi Passiflora said:

Like other men who play as female avatars, I admit one of my reasons for doing so are the typical ulterior ones (I'd prefer to look at a woman than man, etc.) There are also maybe less nefarious reasons I'd so as well (want to experience life from different perspectives and so forth.)

However in this topic I'd like to relate to what I was like growing up and perhaps what I'm like now. It involves the concept of "masculinity" and the pressure for boys and men to conform to this ideal. I was a 90s American kid (born in 1986.) In the 90s ideals were somewhat less progressive than they are today. LGBTQIA+ weren't as widely accepted as the use of the terms "gay" and "*****" as insults were commonplace, especially among boys and young men. And masculinity was held in high regard in society and promoted widely among the media. McDonald's had action figures and vehicles for "boy toys", and dolls and plushies for "girl toys".

I never perceived myself as particularly "masculine" in my life, even though I was subject to peer pressure and bullying about it. I was not a strong or physically imposing person. I was also very mild-mannered and quiet. I wasn't really interested in playing sports or play fighting. I mentioned the McDonald's toys before; in addition to the "boy toys" I also had no qualms about getting the "girl toys" if I were interested in them as well. As my school classmates made fun of Barney the Dinosaur for being purple and thus "gay", I didn't join in their chants. And speaking of those insults, people used them against me and that reinforced my belief that I wasn't very masculine. (Although I think they made fun of me more for my seriousness, high sensitivity, and social awkwardness.)

I still am rather mild-mannered as I was as a kid, but I think one of the reasons I play women in video games (and in turn virtual worlds) now, is because of my previous experiences of not feeling masculine. I mean, I don't think I'm particularly "feminine" either (I once described myself as "middle of the road" in terms of masculinity and femininity.) But given this fact I can't really relate to the  hyper masculine ideal in addition to the other more common reasons I have, I think I would gravitate toward playing as female characters/avatars.

Tl;dr: I think one of the reasons I play female avatars/characters in virtual worlds is because I never felt really "masculine" in my life, in combination with other more typical reasons like "admiring characters", "wanting to see different perspectives", etc.

Can you help us understand how this differs from your other, similar threads?

[Marigold Devin]

I look upon Second Life as a big game of doll's house really, and just like when I was a child (1960s into 70s), I played with my older brothers' toys - Scalextric, Meccano, chemistry set - more than I did with any dolls. One of my brothers didn't exactly play with my dolls, but rigged up electric lights in my doll's house, and made hotpants for my doll, Rosebud (because my mother wouldn't allow me to have them, I was around 8 years old at that time). We all liked to make dens in the local woods, and swing from trees. I had a couple of male friends who were always quite "sensitive" (effeminate), and I was definitely the tomboy among our little group.

In Second Life I chose to be represented by a female avatar, but when I have been in on a male alt, I maybe have channelled the male side of myself, and as a child avatar that I play, I put aside as much as possible all that I know as a grown up and remember the innocent times of being happy to ride a swing all day or make daisy chains. 

Second Life gives us all the ability and freedom to play as we want to, without our parents or anyone else ruling over what we do. We can go into the woods after dark, we can throw ourselves off the tallest buildings, we can pet strange dogs along the way. It feels like such a safe environment where we can really be ourselves. 

But I wonder when, at what age, people start being so judgemental of others. Where does that come from? 

Edited September 28, 2023 by Marigold Devin

[Gopi Passiflora]

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Can you help us understand how this differs from your other, similar threads?

I elaborated on different reasons why I chose female characters/avatars on those other threads. I don't think I've mentioned my "lack of masculinity" as a reason before. The last thread I had regarding gender wasn't about my reasons but whether I should put my real life gender in my profile if I remember correctly. (Oh yeah, I also had a "I was creepy" thread but again that was a different topic.)

I apologize if this topic seems redundant.

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, Gopi Passiflora said:

I elaborated on different reasons why I chose female characters/avatars on those other threads. I don't think I've mentioned my "lack of masculinity" as a reason before. The last thread I had regarding gender wasn't about my reasons but whether I should put my real life gender in my profile if I remember correctly. (Oh yeah, I also had a "I was creepy" thread but again that was a different topic.)

I apologize if this topic seems redundant.

No, not redundant - just nuanced. Thanks!

[Gopi Passiflora]

4 minutes ago, Marigold Devin said:

I look upon Second Life as a big game of doll's house really, and just like when I was a child (1960s into 70s), I played with my older brothers' toys - Scalextric, Meccano, chemistry set - more than I did with any dolls. One of my brothers didn't exactly play with my dolls, but rigged up electric lights in my doll's house, and made hotpants for my doll, Rosebud (because my mother wouldn't allow me to have them, I was around 8 years old at that time). We all liked to make dens in the local woods, and swing from trees. I had a couple of male friends who were always quite "sensitive" (effeminate), and I was definitely the tomboy among our little group.

In Second Life I chose to be represented by a female avatar, but when I have been in on a male alt, I maybe have channelled the male side of myself, and as a child avatar that I play, I put aside as much as possible all that I know as a grown up and remember the innocent times of being happy to ride a swing all day or make daisy chains. 

Second Life gives us all the ability and freedom to play as we want to, without our parents or anyone else ruling over what we do. We can go into the woods after dark, we can throw ourselves off the tallest buildings, we can pet strange dogs along the way. It feels like such a safe environment where we can really be ourselves. 

But I wonder when, at what age, people start being so judgemental of others. Where does that come from? 

I totally agree with what you said in your third paragraph, and overall you paint a nice picture of your childhood and your reasoning for your male SL alt.

I think the judgmental nature starts when we're toddlers....

[Madelaine McMasters]

23 minutes ago, Marigold Devin said:

I look upon Second Life as a big game of doll's house really, and just like when I was a child (1960s into 70s), I played with my older brothers' toys - Scalextric, Meccano, chemistry set - more than I did with any dolls. One of my brothers didn't exactly play with my dolls, but rigged up electric lights in my doll's house, and made hotpants for my doll, Rosebud (because my mother wouldn't allow me to have them, I was around 8 years old at that time). We all liked to make dens in the local woods, and swing from trees. I had a couple of male friends who were always quite "sensitive" (effeminate), and I was definitely the tomboy among our little group.

In Second Life I chose to be represented by a female avatar, but when I have been in on a male alt, I maybe have channelled the male side of myself, and as a child avatar that I play, I put aside as much as possible all that I know as a grown up and remember the innocent times of being happy to ride a swing all day or make daisy chains. 

Second Life gives us all the ability and freedom to play as we want to, without our parents or anyone else ruling over what we do. We can go into the woods after dark, we can throw ourselves off the tallest buildings, we can pet strange dogs along the way. It feels like such a safe environment where we can really be ourselves. 

But I wonder when, at what age, people start being so judgemental of others. Where does that come from? 

 

 

[Love Zhaoying]

Gopi, as a Trans Ally, part of me hopes your trend of posts is part of realizing you may be Trans!

This is a (relatively) safe space to "come out", if that's the case. It's always wonderful to see people come into their true selves.

[Rolig Loon]

42 minutes ago, Gopi Passiflora said:

I still am rather mild-mannered as I was as a kid, but I think one of the reasons I play women in video games (and in turn virtual worlds) now, is because of my previous experiences of not feeling masculine. I mean, I don't think I'm particularly "feminine" either (I once described myself as "middle of the road" in terms of masculinity and femininity.)

I think there are many nuanced ways of being "middle of the road" about gender identity. At least some of them reflect the amount of emphasis we place on gender as an important element of who we are. There are surely "middle of the road" people who feel more strongly about gender identity than others, just as there are men who consider "manliness" and women who consider "femininity" as core elements of their identity more than others do. It's probably a function of my age as much as anything, but I don't spend nearly as much time in either RL or SL on my personal appearance as many people around me do, for example. It's just not one of those key elements in my identity.  (Not that I dress like a slob and don't care about my hair.  It's just that I have better things to do with my time than ponder my appearance.)  My point is that in that dimension of gender identity I am sort of ho-hum. 

The same could be said about the relative importance you place on the games you play, the music you enjoy, or any number of other factors that might be taken as clues about your gender identity.  If you don't care about football, it might be because you identify more with "feminine" sorts of things, but it might just be that you don't find games very interesting.  

[Love Zhaoying]

1 hour ago, Gopi Passiflora said:

I was a 90s American kid (born in 1986.)

My God, you are so very young still!

1 hour ago, Gopi Passiflora said:

I never perceived myself as particularly "masculine" in my life, even though I was subject to peer pressure and bullying about it. I was not a strong or physically imposing person. I was also very mild-mannered and quiet. I wasn't really interested in playing sports or play fighting.

This is my personal experience also.

1 hour ago, Gopi Passiflora said:

As my school classmates made fun of Barney the Dinosaur for being purple and thus "gay"

That's weird! Purple is seen as a really cool color in my own experience (and younger friends, especially friends who are "people of color"). I can't speak for Barney though, I think his whole shtick is to have as brought appeal as possible to younger children. The conclusion I reach is, any kids who make fun of Barney are too old for Barney.

1 hour ago, Gopi Passiflora said:

And speaking of those insults, people used them against me and that reinforced my belief that I wasn't very masculine. (Although I think they made fun of me more for my seriousness, high sensitivity, and social awkwardness.)

Same, same.

1 hour ago, Gopi Passiflora said:

Tl;dr: I think one of the reasons I play female avatars/characters in virtual worlds is because I never felt really "masculine" in my life, in combination with other more typical reasons like "admiring characters", "wanting to see different perspectives", etc.

Now that I have carefully read your post, I'm not positive besides the "thinking out loud" part that you'd like to discuss. We can offer encouragement, share similar experiences, etc. But, I don't see a question or "let's discuss this aspect" - just checking!

[EliseAnne85]

From your OP and from what I read from your words, you could have been perhaps "bored" with the mainstream gender identities of both the masculine and the feminine.  So, it sounds to me you are a very creative person, perhaps and need a new to find new ways of being both genders other than the basic stereotyped ones.  

I want to say something about what I discovered about myself:  I have separated from being human altogether and became a Dinkie cat avatar.  The reason I became a Dinkie, I realized just recently, is because it's centered on fun.  With a human I always felt like I was making avatars that were either working or looked like a Mom, and it kept reminding me of working and work and <fun> was what I was really seeking.  So, I ditched the "working look" human avatars.

I think with humans and Dinkies many of us have had avatars where we've gender-bended a bit and been a bit of both genders.  Sometimes I'm a girl in sneakers and a tank top.  It's okay to wear whatever you want.  I've never been overly feminine in SL.  Perhaps more on the tomboy side but when working in SL with adult avi's I always seemed to look boring like I'm working.  I gave up working in SL and now I know what I want - just to have fun. 

Don't be too hard on yourself.  Some of us are always changing our look and often never quite satisfied.  

As far as the stereotypes of masculine - jeans, tank top, sneakers work on both male and female, and then just have fun.  Making creative and unique avatars is a lot of work but it can also be rewarding.   But, maybe that's what you need.  Something really creative.  Some of the masculine avatars are very good and often made by woman.  Think of SL avatars as creating a painting and be want you want.  

[Gopi Passiflora]

2 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Gopi, as a Trans Ally, part of me hopes your trend of posts is part of realizing you may be Trans!

This is a (relatively) safe space to "come out", if that's the case. It's always wonderful to see people come into their true selves.

Ah no, I don't think I'm transgender. I'm pretty sure on that part.

2 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

My God, you are so very young still!

This is my personal experience also.

That's weird! Purple is seen as a really cool color in my own experience (and younger friends, especially friends who are "people of color"). I can't speak for Barney though, I think his whole shtick is to have as brought appeal as possible to younger children. The conclusion I reach is, any kids who make fun of Barney are too old for Barney.

Same, same.

Now that I have carefully read your post, I'm not positive besides the "thinking out loud" part that you'd like to discuss. We can offer encouragement, share similar experiences, etc. But, I don't see a question or "let's discuss this aspect" - just checking!

Thanks for the input. Yeah I just wanted to share my thoughts is all. I also want to see if people have similar experiences I guess. Encouragement is nice, too.

[Ceka Cianci]

3 hours ago, Gopi Passiflora said:

Like other men who play as female avatars, I admit one of my reasons for doing so are the typical ulterior ones (I'd prefer to look at a woman than man, etc.) There are also maybe less nefarious reasons I'd so as well (want to experience life from different perspectives and so forth.)

However in this topic I'd like to relate to what I was like growing up and perhaps what I'm like now. It involves the concept of "masculinity" and the pressure for boys and men to conform to this ideal. I was a 90s American kid (born in 1986.) In the 90s ideals were somewhat less progressive than they are today. LGBTQIA+ weren't as widely accepted as the use of the terms "gay" and "*****" as insults were commonplace, especially among boys and young men. And masculinity was held in high regard in society and promoted widely among the media. McDonald's had action figures and vehicles for "boy toys", and dolls and plushies for "girl toys".

I never perceived myself as particularly "masculine" in my life, even though I was subject to peer pressure and bullying about it. I was not a strong or physically imposing person. I was also very mild-mannered and quiet. I wasn't really interested in playing sports or play fighting. I mentioned the McDonald's toys before; in addition to the "boy toys" I also had no qualms about getting the "girl toys" if I were interested in them as well. As my school classmates made fun of Barney the Dinosaur for being purple and thus "gay", I didn't join in their chants. And speaking of those insults, people used them against me and that reinforced my belief that I wasn't very masculine. (Although I think they made fun of me more for my seriousness, high sensitivity, and social awkwardness.)

I still am rather mild-mannered as I was as a kid, but I think one of the reasons I play women in video games (and in turn virtual worlds) now, is because of my previous experiences of not feeling masculine. I mean, I don't think I'm particularly "feminine" either (I once described myself as "middle of the road" in terms of masculinity and femininity.) But given this fact I can't really relate to the  hyper masculine ideal in addition to the other more common reasons I have, I think I would gravitate toward playing as female characters/avatars.

Tl;dr: I think one of the reasons I play female avatars/characters in virtual worlds is because I never felt really "masculine" in my life, in combination with other more typical reasons like "admiring characters", "wanting to see different perspectives", etc.

Hey, I was born that year too!! \o/

I thought I sensed something familiar about you.. hehehe

[EliseAnne85]

3 hours ago, Gopi Passiflora said:

It involves the concept of "masculinity" and the pressure for boys and men to conform to this ideal. 

I think the same goes for women.  I also wanted to add it's not unusual to look at the typical in our world as dull.  If you didn't conform to the norms of masculinity, perhaps you need to think and explore outside of that stereotyped box.  Best wishes.  

[Persephone Emerald]

I was born in '64 when, even in California, kids were not open to LGBTQ+ identies, though girls who were "tomboys" had an easier time than boys who were "sensitive". When I was in junior high and high school, "gay" and "lame" were both indistinct, general put-downs for anything that was less than "cool" or anything kids didn't like. 

My mother, who was born in 1922 and grew up on a farm, also didn't have a problem with doing more "masculine" things. She was the eldest child, so she played in the dirt making little vineyards and learned how to milk a cow. In college, a psychology profile identified her as "thinking like a man" because she was good at math and engineering. As a single parent, she said she had to be both mother and father (which wasn't exactly true, though she did have to be self-sufcicient). In her late 60's and early 70's, she drove a tractor lawn mower to mow her own lawn at our ranch house.

Having educated, liberal-minded parents meant I didn't have only "girls toys". I had plenty of dolls, but also LEGO blocks and Hot Wheels cars. My sister's boys had mostly "boys toys", but also each had a soft-body boy doll too.

I've always preferred the more intellectual and sensitive, computer geek kind of guys, the ones who can quote Monty Python, Star Trek or Star Wars and who would rather play a tabletop RPG than even touch a football.

I don't see anything wrong with playing a different gender in SL than the one you identify with in RL, whether that's to explore one's "feminine" or "masculine" side, or just because one wants to look at a cute avatar.

[Stephanie Misfit]

3 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Gopi, as a Trans Ally, part of me hopes your trend of posts is part of realizing you may be Trans!

This is a (relatively) safe space to "come out", if that's the case. It's always wonderful to see people come into their true selves.

People can be gender non-conforming, or uncomfortable with aspects of life as a man or woman, without being transgender. And it is not fair to suggest (or hope) that they might be trans, as a) life for trans people is often not easy and b) people should be allowed to be gender non-conforming without questioning from others about their identity.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

To elaborate a bit on what Stephanie and some others have said above, Gopi: gender isn't an either/or proposition, and the only choices aren't "male" and "female." In fact, I don't even think it's a spectrum: it's much more complicated than that.

While there are obviously some things that are related to biological sex (which, actually, is also not immutable or simple), most of the things that we associate with "masculinity" or "femininity" have been arbitrarily assigned to those categories by a culture that wants us to be straight-jacketed within fairly restrictive definitions. In reality, there is no reason why a "man" can't be sensitive or emotional, and a woman display supposedly "masculine" traits such as strength, logical thought, and even violence. We know, in fact, that this isn't an aberration: people are  like that, and it doesn't mean that they are "broken" or "damaged" or "sick."

Representing as a woman because it allows you to express traits and needs that are traditionally viewed as "feminine" doesn't mean you are any less a "man": it just means that you are acknowledging and expressing the kind of human complexity that a patriarchal culture is uncomfortable with.

We're getting better at recognizing that women and men can be anything, and that culturally-determined gender categories are fictions. And we are slowly and haltingly (but surely) moving towards a place where we can all be whom we want to be, in all of the astonishing, chaotic, and wonderful diversity that that can entail, without feeling bullied by conventional rules and constraints.

[Love Zhaoying]

35 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

To elaborate a bit on what Stephanie and some others have said above, Gopi: gender isn't an either/or proposition, and the only choices aren't "male" and "female."

Noted, feel free to mentally edit any posts where I wrote "Trans", to instead say "Trans/non-binary". I doubt most people understand that Trans is a "spectrum" which also includes Non-binary. EDIT: This is something we always taught in "Trans101" classes.

Gentle suggestion, that while probably not intended to "scold", your response may be better directed at encouraging Gopi, than at possibly chilling support from an Ally. 

 

Edited September 29, 2023 by Love Zhaoying

[Love Zhaoying]

2 hours ago, Stephanie Misfit said:

People can be gender non-conforming, or uncomfortable with aspects of life as a man or woman, without being transgender. And it is not fair to suggest (or hope) that they might be trans, as a) life for trans people is often not easy and b) people should be allowed to be gender non-conforming without questioning from others about their identity.

See my reply to Scylla above.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

7 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Gentle suggestion, that while probably not intended to "scold", your response may be better directed at encouraging Gopi, than at possibly chilling support from an Ally.

Suggestion understood: it's why in fact I didn't quote or reference you. I wasn't trying to scold or upbraid you at all: I understand that it can be difficult to articulate these concepts in all of their complexity, and that it's very easy to be omit something, or even misspeak ,without intending to be reductive at all. I do it all the time by accident myself.

You can think of what I said as a supplement to your comment, rather than as a "correction": that was the intent.

[Love Zhaoying]

15 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Suggestion understood: it's why in fact I didn't quote or reference you. I wasn't trying to scold or upbraid you at all: I understand that it can be difficult to articulate these concepts in all of their complexity, and that it's very easy to be omit something, or even misspeak ,without intending to be reductive at all. I do it all the time by accident myself.

You can think of what I said as a supplement to your comment, rather than as a "correction": that was the intent.

Thanks, gender identity is a complex thing, and so often people just don't "get it" - or worse, browbeat others with their own understanding, which just hurts everyone. 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Just now, Love Zhaoying said:

Thanks, gender identity is a complex thing, and so often people just don't "get it" - or worse, browbeat others with their own understanding, which just hurts everyone. 

It is.

And I actually dislike people who play "Gotcha!" and try to assume the "higher ground" by calling out well-meaning people who've momentarily slipped up, or even may have simply got something wrong. You don't persuade or educate by trying to publicly embarrass someone who, in most cases, is already on the side of the angels.

In your case, I know that you have a good grasp of this stuff already, and that you are, as you say, an ally. As an ally myself, I have been frequently corrected by trans people: when they do it intelligently and sensitively, I am grateful. When they don't, I still learn, but wonder what they think they have to gain from alienating people who are on their side.